Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #6

[Reannan]

Great find rcoope73!!! Here is a picture comparison between the two of them. Sammy Lloyd Jackson would have been 21 years old in 1976.... which is pretty much right on the money. He was only 13 when he went missing from California on December 14, 1968. What on earth could he have been doing for those 8 years before ending up murdered on the side of a rural South Carolina road??? You know, the longer I live, the more I believe that life is unpredictable, and you can't always second guess things. Let's see what we can find about Sammy Lloyd Jackson and [FONT=&quot]Alfred Grimes who he was fishing with when last seen.
[/FONT]

 

[Reannan]

There are two threads on WS's for Alfred Grimes and Sammy Lloyd Jackson. I am going to link to this one because "Shewhomustnobenamed" started it with a photo and description of both Alfred and Sammy. They went missing together, and from I can tell so far, neither have been seen since 1968.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62040&highlight=alfred+grimes

 

[rcoope23]

hmmm that was what I was puzzled about too. If it is him, why did he just disapear? It almost stopped me from posting him as a possibility but since other's see the resemelance as well I'm happy I wasen't imaging things When a case is this cold I guess all hunches are useful.

It would be interesting to find out about his homelife and that of his friend. If he or is friend or both were unhappy they could have made a pact to run away together? Or a relative could have taken them away? I think I'll look for a possible John Doe for his friend Grimes.

 

[nola]

I have attached two sketches of John Doe that I think look a good bit like Sammy Jackson (pic). I hope these attach properly this time. Sorry for the earlier post without pictures. Having some issues tonight...

Just super-imposed Sammy's photo over the two sketches...try it! This is a good possible match in my opinion.

 

[rcoope23]

Thanks Nola for posting the pictures for me wow, the lips and the nose and the face shape seem to match up with both, espessially with the second one

 

[rcoope23]

Has Sandra been checked before as the girl? She has a similarly shaped face.

www.doenetwork.org/cases/1436dfpa.html



Sandra Lee Hopler
Missing since September 29, 1973 from LaPlume, Lackawanna County, Pennsylvania
Classification: Missing


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vital Statistics

•Date of Birth: June 8, 1955
•Age at Time of Disappearance: 18 years old
•Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'4"; 125 lbs.
•Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Brown hair; hazel eyes. She has a small mole near the left side of her lip and another on her right hand near her thumb. Ears are pierced.
•AKA: Sandy


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Circumstances of Disappearance
Sandra, a native of Essex County, NJ, was reported missing on September 29, 1973 from Keystone Junior College, where she was a student.

She had told her roommate that she was going to New York City for a visit. She has not been seen nor heard from since.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Investigators
If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:

Pennsylvania State Police - Troop R
570-963-3156

Agency Case Number: R01-0007906

Source Information:
Pennsylvania Missing Persons
NCMEC


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[kline]

In re to your last sentence, it was never determined that "Jock" had an accent. I don't know if LE never thought to ask the KOA guy who claimed to have met "Jock", or if this information was just never reported to the public, but as far as I know we do not know whether "Jock" had an accent or not.

This possible connection with the Dirty War is interesting, but the fact of the matter is that a local man, Lonnie George Henry, was stopped for a DUI and tests found on a gun under his front seat proved it was the murder weapon. He admitted he had filed the serial number off the gun in the previous six months. This, to me, indicates that Lonnie George Henry, a local drunk and ne'er do well, or someone very close to him like a family member, someone who had access to his gun and was able to 'borrow' it and then replace it, murdered this couple. So to me at least the issue of who killed this couple isn't so much a mystery - it's who they are that is the mystery.

So the murderer was most likely Lonnie Henry or one of his family members. Again, all of these theories are interesting but I'm thinking it's much more simple than that. This couple were outsiders. They were travelers, so either they did or were probably assumed to have had considerable cash on them. IMO, Jock and Jane Doe were robbed by a member of Lonnie Henry's family or someone close to him (or less likely, Lonnie Henry himself, since he was purported to be at a Monroe, NC hospital visiting his sick wife at the time of the killings).

I don't think we will find Jock or Jane Doe on any missing person's site. Although I wasn't born yet, from what I have heard and read the 70s were a very different time. This young couple may not have had the best relationships with their families, and who knows how long it had been since they had been in touch with their families even before they were killed. The families probably assumed they had just gone and started their own lives somewhere else, and maybe never even filed missing person's reports. I do believe they have family out there - cousins, siblings, nieces and nephews - but I don't believe these people are actively looking for Jock or Jane. And let's face it, we have heard about this couple because we are Websleuthers and follow missing people and the unidentified cases, but if you walked up to 100 random people on the street (outside of the SC area where this happened, of course) and asked them if they had heard about this case, I'm sure at least 99 of them would say no, they hadn't. So Jock and Jane's surviving families, wherever they are, are probably not looking for Jock and Jane, nor do they know we are looking for them, or that this case even exists.

JMO

I think your last paragraph absolutely nails why this case is still unsolved.(of course trying to figure out some of the original reasoning used by some of the original investigators gives me a headache...im sure their ineptitude is a big part of it too. "You have the murder weapon in your car?....Oh,you were visiting yor wife in the hospital when the crime occured? OH!!! well move along then....))
People dont exist in a vacume.These two had antecedents ,folks who knew them,they met somewhere and spent enough time together to form a relationship and decide to travel together interacting with people like we all do.
But those were indeed different times and like many people back then they went off the tracks and lost touch and now those who knew them are gone or havent wondered what became of them in 30 odd years assuming they are alive and well somewhere.
I mean how many aquaintences or co workers have you known over the years who moved or changed jobs and you havent hardly had time or reason to wonder what ever became of them?

 

[Reannan]

....I mean how many aquaintences or co workers have you known over the years who moved or changed jobs and you havent hardly had time or reason to wonder what ever became of them?

SBM - That is why I want to see publicity for this case! I want people who are still alive that remember this couple to be able to see this story before we drift so far into the future no one really remembers them at all. I am SO thankful for all of the WS people that keep cases like this going.

 

[rcoope23]

Would anyone be interested in sending in Sammy for me as a possible match for John Doe? I would have no idea how.

 

[Reannan]

Would anyone be interested in sending in Sammy for me as a possible match for John Doe? I would have no idea how.

Hey Rcoope23.... are you registered over at NAMUS (National Association of Missing and Unidentified Persons System) yet??? If not, you probably should be. Just go to google and search for "NAMUS" - it will be the first hit you find. You actually have to register for two seperate databases; one for "Unidentified Persons" and one for "Missing Persons". The great thing is, you can search for variable pieces of information on either database!!! I love the site, and I think you will find it very valuable because I have a feeling you might be good at this! I went to NAMUS and searched for Sammy in the Missing Persons database. Here is what I found about contact information for Sammy:

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/4540/0/

Monterey County Sheriff's Office
State: California
Phone: 831-755-3700
Case Number: 1-22185

There are some actually very useful guidelines in the top sections of the Unidentified Forum here at WS's about calling in leads. It really can be an intimidating thing, but it can also be the key to solving a mystery and/or crime. I prefer email, but I have made phone calls and snail mail. I NEVER use the name of WebSleuths unless I have cleared it with Tricia, the owner, prior to making the contact. I generally say that I am a "volunteer victim rights advocate". Go to NAMUS and take a look, sleep on it, and think about it. I TOTALLY understand where you are at with this situation! You are new here, and landed in the middle of a fascinating case, and you have made a valid comparison!!! Let me know how you feel tomorrow, and if you don't feel like making the call, and if no one else steps up and said they did, I will do it. I want this case solved SO DANG BAD!!! It haunts my dreams..... I feel like I know this couple that no one in the world seems to be willing to step up and acknowledge! I want them both to have their name back, and I will do anything to see that happen. Thanks for joining us at WS's....

 

[rcoope23]

Hey Reannan, I have seen the Nameus site before but have not registered so will do The reason I am abit reluctant to call other than the obvious nerves Is I'm an Aussie, and I imagine an overseas call would be costly. I would be more than happy to send it in via email, but I'm afraid it wouldn't get noticed? I too have become wrapped up in this case and can't stop thinking about it... I think it is because I am young as well, and keep thinking of me and my partner lying on the side of the road without a name or justice. It's just soooo sad

I think multiple people were possibly involved in this crime and them getting away with it all this time just makes me angry. I just hope Karma has bitten them big time IDing the vics I think would get it alot more publicity at the very least and most importantly give a family back their missing family member.

Thanks for the encouragement and help

 

[Reannan]

OK Rcoope23, I called it in to the Monterey County Sheriff's office. First, I got a receptionist on the line who sent me to a "secretary", who then sent me to a young sounding detective. I explained the situation, and he is going to have a "homicide and missing persons" detective call me back tomorrow. The guy who is going to call me back has been on the force for 40 years, but was out of the office today. So.... at least we are still trying, huh?? I will keep you posted.

 

[rcoope23]

Dear Reannan, Thankyou so much for doing that Yes all we can do is try. Hopefully they get back in contact with you If he has been in the force 40 years he probably remembers the case or worked with someone who did, so that's promising.

I have been doing my own research and I have contacted the Montray library to see whether there are any newspaper articles from around that time period. I got a nice reply back saying they are going to look at newspapers from around that date and email any relevant information back to me. Since there is barely anything about their case online and it might give more information about how possible an actual match is

 

[Reannan]

So, I didn't hear back from the Monterey County police officer today.... but that does not deter me. He was out of the office yesterday, and he may have been swamped by stuff when he got there today. I will give him a while and then start calling again. Same thing goes for the Sumter County Coroner.... If necessary, I could drive to Sumter County, and I think I have some frequent flyer miles I could use for California. This case really needs to be solved so I can move on to a new obsession!!! I honestly just can't imagine 20 or 30 years from now and we still don't know who this couple is!!!

 

[rcoope23]

Dear Reannan, I had better luck with the library. They emailed me two newspaper articles relating to the boys. I will post them under their thread as well.


Taken from Montery Pennisula Herald, Montery Claifornia, Thursday 19th Dec 1968

Two Marina boys who failed to return home from a day of fishing Saturday, are still missing according to the Sherrifs Office. The search is continuing for Al Grimes, 14 of 149 Hilo St and Sam Jackson, 13 of 316 Ninole Dr. The Grimes boys mother said the boys are believed to have been seen twice on Saturday in Montery and may be living in Cannery Row. Persons with information are asked to call Mrs Grimes at 384-8525 or the Sherrifs office.

So just what wanted to know, it is plausible the boys were runaways, hence making the ID more likely. Another thought is why is poor Jacksons mother not listed as a contact? weren't they looking for him?

The next article is a little large so I will attach it.
In this article it is the same and it is the Grimes family who are looking for their boy. The dad is being very closed lipped. Perhaps he has given his son up for dead which is sad Perhaps he knew something and wasen't telling. It just seems slightly suspisious to me after so many years, he still isn't will to talk about his son. Perhaps he knows something that the Grimes family don't.

 

[Reannan]

That is fantastic information rcoope23! It will give me a lot more info for when I do get to speak with the detective. I find it very interesting that both of the boys were possibly spotted in other areas of town. I also find it interesting that Sam Jackson's "father" did not want to speak about his missing son as of January 11, 1987. Interestingly, Sam's father (S. Jackson) is listed as a female on Spokeo.com and still lives at the residence listed for Sam in the first article you quoted. After I hear back from the detective, I will post all of that information over on the thread for the missing boys.

 

[easongt]

They were killed somewhere else or in a vehicle. Their bodies were carried from the vehicle. This means there should have been footprints in the dirt from the killer. If my theory were wrong, then there would be footprints from the victims walking. Male was most likely in the passenger's side and female possibly in the back seat. I base this on the position of their bodies in relation to the tire tracks shown in the picture. It is also possible they were shot elsewhere and dumped there half dead, then shot again to ensure they were dead. This does indicate that they were hitching a ride or at the very least they were riding with someone they knew. My best guess is they were hitching and their belongings remained in the vehicle. If they were shot by the side of the road (outside of the vehicle) then you would expect the bodies to be farther apart and possibly face down. Google earth images of the road seem to indicate this was not an easy or quick exit from I-95 although it was extremely close to the interstate. This could possibly mean someone familiar with the area or from the area.

How many bullets were recovered in relation to the wounds? Six bullets should have been recovered. What about Henry's vehicle(s). VIN number? DNA possibly could still be present in those if heavy bleeding occurred in the fabric.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[easongt]

"An autopsy showed that the victim had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat. "

Yes, I am convinced they were shot somewhere else and then shot again after dumped.

 

[KLCD620]

Is there any pool of blood that left on the dirt road/grass field after they were killed? If not, they must be dumped there.

 

[easongt]

I would love to read the police report. Footprints, bullets recovered, blood splatter.

Being shot in the back indicates that they were either caught by surprise or were both attempting to flee. If they were running I would expect their bodies to be farther apart... right? If they were shot in the back or spine, they could have been dying or dead when they were dumped there. The additional shot to the chest and throat to ensure death would indicate they were shot while lying down on their back after being dropped from the vehicle. If the bullet trajectories were traced during the autopsy, that would be a start in determining the crime scene. If the actual crime scene had been pinned down I think they might have nailed Henry if indeed he was the shooter. I do believe I read somewhere that a nearby resident heard the gun shots. This would account for at least 4 gun shots at the scene (two to each of their chests and two to each of their throats. Their could even be bullets buried in the ground by where their bodies were found if police did not metal detect the area around the bodies. Anyhow, I think the original crime scene was somewhere else. Possibly in Henry's vehicle or in his home. Either of which might show traces of blood or DNA even today... I think. Anyhow, Police report would be very nice.