Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

[branmuffin]

It is safe to assume that these Does are not in any national database in the US or Canada. All of the potential matches in those databases have been vetted by now. Either these two people were never reported missing or the reports never made it past local law enforcement in the jurisdiction where the reports were made. That isn't surprising; most people who went missing in the pre-worldwide-web era are not in any of the online databases. Some local police departments used to put missing-person reports in the circular file after a while. We've seen it happen.

I agree we are hobbled by the lack of entries into national databases for missing persons. Especially prior to the 80s. The pickings are very slim so the same people show up over and over again.

It seems young people back then were much more likely to travel extensively using varied methods with the blessings of parents.

I think about people I knew in the 70s who decided to hitch their way through Europe and we didn't hear from them for months if not years. One guy went to Europe and ended up in prison in India. You can guess why. No one knew for years where he was because Europe isn't India.

Familial breakdowns could be the culprit, I don't know. But how strained can relationships be not to wonder where your child ended up after decades? Because even if your relationship broke it doesn't mean all other attachments broke down, too. Friends, other relatives, business contacts, etc.

 

[Andreee]

Personally, I don't see Sylvie Ouimet being a strong candidate for our JD. Her features do not look remotely similar; her nose is much broader, the eyebrows are a different shape, she doesn't have two moles on her face, her lips have a different shape, her facial shape is more square while our JD's face is oval.

Sylvie walked out of a psychiatric hospital in Montreal without any of her belongings in April when the weather cool, damp and cloudy with the temperature hovering around freezing in the later hours. If she was trying to get to her family in Laval she'd have to cross a river to do so.

I can see the temptation to associate a missing girl, who walked out of a psychiatric hospital perhaps knowing the son of a psychiatrist, but we have to be careful suggesting a deceased psychiatrist's son is our John Doe when in actual fact we don't know whether the son is alive or not. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest a couple of Quebec doctors who are now deceased had sons that predeceased them in their obituary.

It is safe to assume that these Does are not in any national database in the US or Canada. All of the potential matches in those databases have been vetted by now. Either these two people were never reported missing or the reports never made it past local law enforcement in the jurisdiction where the reports were made. That isn't surprising; most people who went missing in the pre-worldwide-web era are not in any of the online databases. Some local police departments used to put missing-person reports in the circular file after a while. We've seen it happen.

I'm Canadian and I had thought we monitored people going through the border along with the USA and made records of them back in the 70s and earlier, the same as we do nowadays, albeit with older methods. But I've realized that wasn't the case after researching several cross border cases, where the person wasn't id'ed. When I think about it, when I took the Greyhound bus from NYC to TO during my own teen travels in the 80s, I don't believe my name was recorded at the border lol. It would've been reported by family of course if I went missing, but it seems that there wasn't as much diligence in keeping records over the years from those days til now via internet, etc.

 

[Andreee]

Personally, I don't see Sylvie Ouimet being a strong candidate for our JD. Her features do not look remotely similar; her nose is much broader, the eyebrows are a different shape, she doesn't have two moles on her face, her lips have a different shape, her facial shape is more square while our JD's face is oval.

Sylvie walked out of a psychiatric hospital in Montreal without any of her belongings in April when the weather cool, damp and cloudy with the temperature hovering around freezing in the later hours. If she was trying to get to her family in Laval she'd have to cross a river to do so.

I can see the temptation to associate a missing girl, who walked out of a psychiatric hospital perhaps knowing the son of a psychiatrist, but we have to be careful suggesting a deceased psychiatrist's son is our John Doe when in actual fact we don't know whether the son is alive or not. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest a couple of Quebec doctors who are now deceased had sons that predeceased them in their obituary.

It is safe to assume that these Does are not in any national database in the US or Canada. All of the potential matches in those databases have been vetted by now. Either these two people were never reported missing or the reports never made it past local law enforcement in the jurisdiction where the reports were made. That isn't surprising; most people who went missing in the pre-worldwide-web era are not in any of the online databases. Some local police departments used to put missing-person reports in the circular file after a while. We've seen it happen.

 

[branmuffin]

I'm Canadian and I had thought we monitored people going through the border along with the USA and made records of them back in the 70s and earlier, the same as we do nowadays, albeit with older methods. But I've realized that wasn't the case after researching several cross border cases, where the person wasn't id'ed. When I think about it, when I took the Greyhound bus from NYC to TO during my own teen travels in the 80s, I don't believe my name was recorded at the border lol. It would've been reported by family of course if I went missing, but it seems that there wasn't as much diligence in keeping records over the years from those days til now via internet, etc.

To give you an example of just how lax the border crossings were during that time: I was born in England and moved to Canada as a child. My parents became Canadian citizens before me and my sister did.

When I would go to Buffalo with my friends, the border guard would lean into the car and ask all of us where we were born. I practiced saying 'Taranna" for Toronto, and we all sailed through without a second glance. When we returned to Canada we were waved through because we had Ontario plates. So both Canada and the US had pretty lax regulations as to who was coming and going.

Now it's light years away from that.

 

[Tabirey]

It's frustrating for us because Namus no longer lists ruleouts for these Does so the same people are brought up again and again.

RSBM
Both Does do have some exclusions listed as far as I can see:

Jane Doe:
MP35427 Rebecca Doisy 08/05/1976
Boone MO
MP19259 Cordelia McMinn 05/12/1976Kauai HI

Jock Doe:
MP19254 John McMinn 05/12/1976
Kauai HI

 

[TedMac]

RSBM
Both Does do have some exclusions listed as far as I can see:

Jane Doe:
MP35427 Rebecca Doisy 08/05/1976
Boone MO
MP19259 Cordelia McMinn 05/12/1976Kauai HI

Jock Doe:
MP19254 John McMinn 05/12/1976
Kauai HI

The McMinn's were thought by some to be Jock & Jane Doe for many years. They went missing together while boating off the USA west coast. I'm glad that rumor can finally be put to rest.

 

[retrometro]

When I would go to Buffalo with my friends, the border guard would lean into the car and ask all of us where we were born. I practiced saying 'Taranna" for Toronto, and we all sailed through without a second glance. When we returned to Canada we were waved through because we had Ontario plates. So both Canada and the US had pretty lax regulations as to who was coming and going.

Now it's light years away from that.

Yup. As recently as the early 2000s, I can remember crossing between the United States and Mexico without anyone from either side asking me who I was or where I was going. It's sort of bizarre in retrospect. I don't know how international flights worked in the mid-1970s, but I'm just old enough that I can remember when it was possible to get on a domestic flight without needing to show ID at any point in the process.

Familial breakdowns could be the culprit, I don't know. But how strained can relationships be not to wonder where your child ended up after decades? Because even if your relationship broke it doesn't mean all other attachments broke down, too. Friends, other relatives, business contacts, etc.

This is a question that I've wondered about too. The physical evidence seems to suggest that they weren't transients, which makes it all the more mysterious that no one has ever recognized them after all these years. As I've speculated about before, I sometimes wonder if there was some kind of misdirection that led the family to look somewhere other than South Carolina. [For example, suppose the killer(s) took their car or credit cards and later used them in another state, leaving the impression that they were still alive].

JMO and I realize it's a far-fetched scenario. But it's always felt to me like this should have been a solvable case and that something off-kilter happened which hindered that.

 

[Andreee]

To give you an example of just how lax the border crossings were during that time: I was born in England and moved to Canada as a child. My parents became Canadian citizens before me and my sister did.

When I would go to Buffalo with my friends, the border guard would lean into the car and ask all of us where we were born. I practiced saying 'Taranna" for Toronto, and we all sailed through without a second glance. When we returned to Canada we were waved through because we had Ontario plates. So both Canada and the US had pretty lax regulations as to who was coming and going.

Now it's light years away from that.

Yes, I was same as u re. born in UK, moved to Canada as a child. I recall one time at the Buffalo/Toronto border coming through on the Greyhound, that although I was about aged 19, I looked young for my age and the American border guard DID question me and looked a bit suspicious of me lol, bu you're right, nothing compared to modern days at the border! Nowadays Jock & Jane Doe would've been id'ed alot more easily!

 

[branmuffin]

RSBM
Both Does do have some exclusions listed as far as I can see:

Jane Doe:
MP35427 Rebecca Doisy 08/05/1976
Boone MO
MP19259 Cordelia McMinn 05/12/1976Kauai HI

Jock Doe:
MP19254 John McMinn 05/12/1976
Kauai HI

Here's some additionals courtesy of @PropaneYeeter from the previous thread:
Here's a rule-out list I compiled not so long ago:
(For Jacques)
John Michael McMinn
Jacques Henry Guy Bellchambers
Brian Guberman
Ronald Paul Yakimchuk

(For Jane)
Rebecca Abbot Doisy
Cordelia McMinn
Sylvie Ouimet
Theresa Anne Pettit
Debra Ann Wilhite

 

[branmuffin]

Yes, I was same as u re. born in UK, moved to Canada as a child. I recall one time at the Buffalo/Toronto border coming through on the Greyhound, that although I was about aged 19, I looked young for my age and the American border guard DID question me and looked a bit suspicious of me lol, bu you're right, nothing compared to modern days at the border! Nowadays Jock & Jane Doe would've been id'ed alot more easily!

I'd like to believe they would be identified much more quickly today, but considering the thousands of UIDs in the US and Canada that have accumulated in the last 20 years (and that's the 21st century!) there's still too many that remain anonymous.

 

[Chantal]

Here is Chantal's info. from a thread or two back that I happened upon too! And I quote:

"I read all the posts. When I first wrote I did not know if I could write a name. I haven't seen the doctor's name I found.
There was a doctor in Montreal, Jean-Panet Fauteux, a highly respected surgeon. He was born in 1923. Must have come from a rich family because is brother was a Judge. Maybe the ring with the initials JPF was Jock's father's?

I will go the the Library of Archives in Montreal, I want to look in the birth records. I can look also for Jacques Fiset too."

Unfortunately, I have reached dead ends, findind necrologies in archived newspapers for every famous doctors with an F last name so far.

 

[Andreee]

Unfortunately, I have reached dead ends, findind necrologies in archived newspapers for every famous doctors with an F last name so far.

Well, you tried! I tried to find info. online for those few names you mentioned, but of course there wasn't really any confirmation that the JD is one of their sons, although it seemed hopeful.

 

[Sweetluv]

I keep coming back to the way our Jane Doe was dressed. It was a "cute" stylish outfit with matching wedged sandals. Doesnt sound like hitchhiking attire or footwear...or at least she wasn't planning to. No keys, no car, no wallet/purse, no luggage...doesnt sound like a random act to me.
If this person, which I believe there is more than one, took them at gunpoint and put them in the car...why drive them somewhere? One had to drive and the other person had to be holding the gun on them...no signs of rope marks.
Sounds planned, personal...

 

[Sweetluv]

If they were involved in drug running, I dont think anyone would have come forward to ID. Maybe scared of implicating themselves or fear of retaliation.

 

[Ozoner]

I agree we are hobbled by the lack of entries into national databases for missing persons. Especially prior to the 80s. The pickings are very slim so the same people show up over and over again.

It seems young people back then were much more likely to travel extensively using varied methods with the blessings of parents.

I think about people I knew in the 70s who decided to hitch their way through Europe and we didn't hear from them for months if not years. One guy went to Europe and ended up in prison in India. You can guess why. No one knew for years where he was because Europe isn't India.

Familial breakdowns could be the culprit, I don't know. But how strained can relationships be not to wonder where your child ended up after decades? Because even if your relationship broke it doesn't mean all other attachments broke down, too. Friends, other relatives, business contacts, etc.

I think that it used to be more common for people to move and strike out on their own and not keep in touch with family members. Some people don't like to write letters, and long distance phone calls were expensive back in the day. Besides, people get busy with their day-to-day lives. Writing home once a year wouldn't have been an uncommon pattern, and if someone's parents were dead or if relations were strained, then a complete loss of contact wouldn't have been that unusual.

 

[Ozoner]

I agree we are hobbled by the lack of entries into national databases for missing persons. Especially prior to the 80s. The pickings are very slim so the same people show up over and over again.

It seems young people back then were much more likely to travel extensively using varied methods with the blessings of parents.

I think about people I knew in the 70s who decided to hitch their way through Europe and we didn't hear from them for months if not years. One guy went to Europe and ended up in prison in India. You can guess why. No one knew for years where he was because Europe isn't India.

Familial breakdowns could be the culprit, I don't know. But how strained can relationships be not to wonder where your child ended up after decades? Because even if your relationship broke it doesn't mean all other attachments broke down, too. Friends, other relatives, business contacts, etc.

BBM
I would say prior to the 90s. The one local missing person started to research from 1985 was not in any databases initially. I think that someone from websleuths got her added after I opened a thread to one or two of them after I created a thread. My guess would be that fewer than half of missing people from the 80s have any online presence. If you go back to the 70s, it might be as low as 5% or 10%.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Banner announcement on the Doe Upload spreadsheet this week:

"GIGANTIC, HUGE, OFF THE WALL, GLORIOUS NEWS coming before Year End (we hope)! Can hardly wait to share!"

My first thought was it had to be this case. It's seemingly the only case DNA Doe Project is known to be working on that would reach that level of euphoria, especially since it would be a two-for-one.

But after checking the DNA Doe Project thread on this site it may be a change to database availability, as opposed to a case solve.

Here are the related posts in that thread:

DNA Doe Project - General Discussion

"BIG NEWS coming from the DNA public spreadsheet: Doe Upload.xlsx"

"Is it regarding the sheet itself or one/more of the cases?"

"You will see it reflected on the sheet - [building suspense!]"

 

[Ozoner]

I keep coming back to the way our Jane Doe was dressed. It was a "cute" stylish outfit with matching wedged sandals. Doesnt sound like hitchhiking attire or footwear...or at least she wasn't planning to. No keys, no car, no wallet/purse, no luggage...doesnt sound like a random act to me.

I keep coming back to Lonnie George Henry and the fact that he had the murder weapon in his possession with the serial number filed off.

He lived in Wadesboro, North Carolina, but was arrested for drunk driving in Lata, South Carolina. What was his connection to South Carolina? The average drunk doesn't drive to a different state to get loaded.

By the way, LGH's brother supposedly gave LGH the gun as a Christmas present. Who gives stolen guns as Christmas presents? Is that a hillbilly thing?

If this person, which I believe there is more than one, took them at gunpoint and put them in the car...why drive them somewhere? One had to drive and the other person had to be holding the gun on them...no signs of rope marks.
Sounds planned, personal...

The person holding the gun could have forced the Does to drive.

Let's assume that the Does had some kind of vehicle. It must have been either stolen (which is one likely motive for the murders) or abandoned. I wonder whether there are any records of abandoned vehicles recovered in Sumter County or the neighboring counties in August or September of '76.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I keep coming back to Lonnie George Henry and the fact that he had the murder weapon in his possession with the serial number filed off.

He lived in Wadesboro, North Carolina, but was arrested for drunk driving in Lata, South Carolina. What was his connection to South Carolina? The average drunk doesn't drive to a different state to get loaded.

By the way, LGH's brother supposedly gave LGH the gun as a Christmas present. Who gives stolen guns as Christmas presents? Is that a hillbilly thing?

The person holding the gun could have forced the Does to drive.

Let's assume that the Does had some kind of vehicle. It must have been either stolen (which is one likely motive for the murders) or abandoned. I wonder whether there are any records of abandoned vehicles recovered in Sumter County or the neighboring counties in August or September of '76.

I often wonder about these things too. The couple’s transportation, which I believe they had a vehicle at some point, and the vehicle used to transport them to where they were found. They could even be one and the same. Finding an abandoned vehicle during the time you mentioned could have been a huge clue if the dots were connected.

I was watching Forensic Files (I know, I know ) the other day and the case ended up being solved by plaster casts they’d made of tire impressions found at the scene. I started thinking about the ones they found in this case. I just wonder what happened to them and how valuable they could be now if re-evaluated. I can’t remember the source of this information, but I know it’s here somewhere on one of these threads.

And LGH. So many “WTFs?!” with that one in my opinion.

 

[T rex]

I keep coming back to Lonnie George Henry and the fact that he had the murder weapon in his possession with the serial number filed off.

He lived in Wadesboro, North Carolina, but was arrested for drunk driving in Lata, South Carolina. What was his connection to South Carolina? The average drunk doesn't drive to a different state to get loaded.

By the way, LGH's brother supposedly gave LGH the gun as a Christmas present. Who gives stolen guns as Christmas presents? Is that a hillbilly thing?

The person holding the gun could have forced the Does to drive.

Let's assume that the Does had some kind of vehicle. It must have been either stolen (which is one likely motive for the murders) or abandoned. I wonder whether there are any records of abandoned vehicles recovered in Sumter County or the neighboring counties in August or September of '76.

Mr Henry had a first cousin living within a few miles of Latta in a neighboring town. Her daughter is living in Latta at the present. George definitely had connections to this area but I don't know if the ones I know about had anything to do with him being there on the night he was arrested.

I remember reading in one of the old news articles that when providing his alibi George said on the night of the murders he was with his sister in law visiting his wife at a hospital. I always wondered what he meant by this. Does this mean he went there with his sister in law in her vehicle? Because if so then where was his car? The one with the gun under the seat.