Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

[Andreee]

If I recall correctly the dental records ruled out the girl.

Thanks, good to know!

 

[Andreee]

I was just reading the circumstances of this young woman's disappearance on a F.B. page dedicated to finding her, and she had been in a hospital at the time. She had left there without her belongings and did not return. I don't want to get into details here, but I do not think she is the JD we are trying to id. However, this is IMO.

 

[Andreee]

DBM repeat

 

[TitubeAndSylvain]

Hello all, i've been here a few years back, I am in Montreal, so I've made some researches and recently found my old notes.
To follow-up on thread #six page 51, some eminent doctors are: Dr Jacques Fiset, dental specialist in prosthodontics (one children Jacques Jr, no spouse), Dr Jean Panet Fauteux, Dr Jacques Fauteux, dental surgeon.
But Jock only said his father was a doctor, right, no mention that his father was a dental doctor?
So his father could have been a proeminent psychiatist, like Dr Leo Paul Ferron.
I went to the Montreal university dept of education but they don't have the graduates pictures from the 70's (I was looking for Jock, if he studied there)

The Leo Paul Ferron theory is really interesting! i'm in Montreal as well, and franco, if you need help with research!

 

[Andreee]

The Leo Paul Ferron theory is really interesting! i'm in Montreal as well, and franco, if you need help with research!

Sounds good! I had seen somewhere awhile back about how a private investigator was hired, not sure by who, but the PI had checked out doctors in Montreal at the time and saw one photo of a doctor who looked like John Doe. This PI called the dr. and asked if he had a son and he said no. So I guess there is info. from the 70's there. Perhaps the father worked in Quebec City too.

 

[Andreee]

The Leo Paul Ferron theory is really interesting! i'm in Montreal as well, and franco, if you need help with research!

Here is Chantal's info. from a thread or two back that I happened upon too! And I quote:

"I read all the posts. When I first wrote I did not know if I could write a name. I haven't seen the doctor's name I found.
There was a doctor in Montreal, Jean-Panet Fauteux, a highly respected surgeon. He was born in 1923. Must have come from a rich family because is brother was a Judge. Maybe the ring with the initials JPF was Jock's father's?

I will go the the Library of Archives in Montreal, I want to look in the birth records. I can look also for Jacques Fiset too."

 

[Ozoner]

That's the thing that bothered me as well, but the sepia picture of her shows what could be blemishes or shadow where the moles would be. When I put a b/w filter on it, it did look like it could be the 2 moles...

The two don't resemble each other even minimally. A careful look at even one or two facial features can is enough for a rule out. (The noses are completely different, the brow ridges are completely different, etc.)

 

[CCJD]

Going with the Québec theory, could this be the Jane Doe? the eye colour, age, height, years are matching, and I find their jaw quite similar... Disparu(e) - Sylvie Ouimet - ADR.tv

From Thread #1:

• I am also sending you two leads on missing people. One is a girl from Quebec named Sylvie Ouimet and the other is a young man named James Berkeley Norris who went missing in South Florida who looks similar to your John Doe (except that he has facial hair). I am not sure if these are matches but it can’t hurt to look at them. I am faxing you their printed Doe Network pages, you can also visit the links below in order to get a better look at the photos:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/886dmfl.html
The Doe Network: Case File 2322DFQC

Both the above missing people have been ruled out by Verna's forensics guy. James Norris had a distinctive scar on his upper lip which the Sumter County John Doe did not, and Sylvie Ouimet did not have any moles/beauty marks on her face.
BBM

Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #1

 

[Andreee]

dbm

 

[branmuffin]

From Thread #1:

• I am also sending you two leads on missing people. One is a girl from Quebec named Sylvie Ouimet and the other is a young man named James Berkeley Norris who went missing in South Florida who looks similar to your John Doe (except that he has facial hair). I am not sure if these are matches but it can’t hurt to look at them. I am faxing you their printed Doe Network pages, you can also visit the links below in order to get a better look at the photos:

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/886dmfl.html
The Doe Network: Case File 2322DFQC

Both the above missing people have been ruled out by Verna's forensics guy. James Norris had a distinctive scar on his upper lip which the Sumter County John Doe did not, and Sylvie Ouimet did not have any moles/beauty marks on her face.
BBM

Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #1

Personally, I don't see Sylvie Ouimet being a strong candidate for our JD. Her features do not look remotely similar; her nose is much broader, the eyebrows are a different shape, she doesn't have two moles on her face, her lips have a different shape, her facial shape is more square while our JD's face is oval.

Sylvie walked out of a psychiatric hospital in Montreal without any of her belongings in April when the weather cool, damp and cloudy with the temperature hovering around freezing in the later hours. If she was trying to get to her family in Laval she'd have to cross a river to do so.

I can see the temptation to associate a missing girl, who walked out of a psychiatric hospital perhaps knowing the son of a psychiatrist, but we have to be careful suggesting a deceased psychiatrist's son is our John Doe when in actual fact we don't know whether the son is alive or not. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest a couple of Quebec doctors who are now deceased had sons that predeceased them in their obituary.

 

[TedMac]

Personally, I don't see Sylvie Ouimet being a strong candidate for our JD. Her features do not look remotely similar; her nose is much broader, the eyebrows are a different shape, she doesn't have two moles on her face, her lips have a different shape, her facial shape is more square while our JD's face is oval.

Sylvie walked out of a psychiatric hospital in Montreal without any of her belongings in April when the weather cool, damp and cloudy with the temperature hovering around freezing in the later hours. If she was trying to get to her family in Laval she'd have to cross a river to do so.

I can see the temptation to associate a missing girl, who walked out of a psychiatric hospital perhaps knowing the son of a psychiatrist, but we have to be careful suggesting a deceased psychiatrist's son is our John Doe when in actual fact we don't know whether the son is alive or not. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest a couple of Quebec doctors who are now deceased had sons that predeceased them in their obituary.

From what I have read, John Doe is the one who stated his father was a Canadian doctor. It is unknown if that is true or not, but I have never heard that the Jane Doe was from there. He could have been traveling across the country and simply met up with her somewhere along the way.

 

[CCJD]

Personally, I don't see Sylvie Ouimet being a strong candidate for our JD. Her features do not look remotely similar; her nose is much broader, the eyebrows are a different shape, she doesn't have two moles on her face, her lips have a different shape, her facial shape is more square while our JD's face is oval.

Sylvie walked out of a psychiatric hospital in Montreal without any of her belongings in April when the weather cool, damp and cloudy with the temperature hovering around freezing in the later hours. If she was trying to get to her family in Laval she'd have to cross a river to do so.

I can see the temptation to associate a missing girl, who walked out of a psychiatric hospital perhaps knowing the son of a psychiatrist, but we have to be careful suggesting a deceased psychiatrist's son is our John Doe when in actual fact we don't know whether the son is alive or not. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest a couple of Quebec doctors who are now deceased had sons that predeceased them in their obituary.

Agree. All the circumstances aside, Sylvie, imo, bears no resemblence to UID.
(not sure why you quoted me - I'm just bringing forward another member's post to show Sylvie had been ruled out)

 

[branmuffin]

Agree. All the circumstances aside, Sylvie, imo, bears no resemblence to UID.
(not sure why you quoted me - I'm just bringing forward another member's post to show Sylvie had been ruled out)

It doesn't appear to work! People are continuing to suggest individuals who've been submitted before that don't have some of the basic characteristics of our Does. They suggest individuals with tattoos, scars, extreme differences in height, eye colour, etc.

It isn't unique to this particular mystery, either. I follow the Mostly Harmless UID who was found deceased in a tent in Florida in 2018. He starved to death. His picture is plastered all over the internet now and people are still submitting potential 'matches' based on the most tenuous considerations.

I understand the initial curiosity of someone who comes upon this particular mystery and starts from Square One. But it's not necessary to do that. There's a reason LE have murder books on deceased individuals because investigators move around and change roles. You acquaint yourself with the circumstances and information from prior investigations otherwise you are just chasing your tail.

 

[Andreee]

Yes, that particular person had no resemblance to JD. I did look at her background and I did not want to even mention the particulars about her case here, as if you read how she disappeared it does not compute. It is good to research the circumstances of a person's disappearing in addition to if they have resemblance to the JD in question, before suggestions are made. I think the two moles on the JD's face are very unique and it is indeed perplexing as to where she came from and why she wasn't reporting missing anywhere that I can see! I even looked at overseas missing persons and was quick to eliminate possibilities due to her unique facial feature.

 

[Laughing]

Any updates from the genetic genealogy search process?

 

[Ozoner]

Any updates from the genetic genealogy search process?

The next update to the spreadsheet will occur tomorrow.

 

[TitubeAndSylvain]

It doesn't appear to work! People are continuing to suggest individuals who've been submitted before that don't have some of the basic characteristics of our Does. They suggest individuals with tattoos, scars, extreme differences in height, eye colour, etc.

It isn't unique to this particular mystery, either. I follow the Mostly Harmless UID who was found deceased in a tent in Florida in 2018. He starved to death. His picture is plastered all over the internet now and people are still submitting potential 'matches' based on the most tenuous considerations.

I understand the initial curiosity of someone who comes upon this particular mystery and starts from Square One. But it's not necessary to do that. There's a reason LE have murder books on deceased individuals because investigators move around and change roles. You acquaint yourself with the circumstances and information from prior investigations otherwise you are just chasing your tail.

Ok, first of all, I had read about the case, most of the threads here, and I also knew Sylvie's background before i posted. I brought her up because her lips, her jaw, her eyebrows, her age, her genetics, her height, her eye colour, her nose and her weight fitted. on top of the French Canadian theory. I am also French Canadian. Québécoise and Acadian with roots in Canada since the 1600s, and my oracle results are pretty similar to both, as you can see. I might be new on websleuths, but I have experience in regular investigative work, so no need to lecture me about how it's done. I'm assuming that you know that going back to old ideas with fresh new eyes can help see details that were missed since that's pretty much the concept of websleuths.

 

[branmuffin]

Ok, first of all, I had read about the case, most of the threads here, and I also knew Sylvie's background before i posted. I brought her up because her lips, her jaw, her eyebrows, her age, her genetics, her height, her eye colour, her nose and her weight fitted. on top of the French Canadian theory. I am also French Canadian. Québécoise and Acadian with roots in Canada since the 1600s, and my oracle results are pretty similar to both, as you can see. I might be new on websleuths, but I have experience in regular investigative work, so no need to lecture me about how it's done. I'm assuming that you know that going back to old ideas with fresh new eyes can help see details that were missed since that's pretty much the concept of websleuths.

I totally agree that fresh eyes can provide new clues to old cases. I wasn't lecturing you.

I've seen the images of Sylvie for decades being brought forward as a potential match for our Jane Doe, not just here on WS. . And her admixture suggests any country background in the Baltic and North Atlantic countries heavily relying on French and Spanish mixed. So the UID definitely could be French Canadian.

I just think we forget that LE have access to the same missing persons files that we do and in the 40+ years not one new investigator with fresh eyes has ever brought Sylvie or Lucie Gelinas up as possible matches. So it worries me when people suggest to submit them as a match to LE.

The Does look French or Spanish or Persian to me, too. And their admixture suggests those countries, too. And believe me, I've toyed with both Lucie AND Sylvie as possible matches which means so have LE. I see Lucie and Sylvie as low hanging fruit because of their superficial similarities and have been investigated over and over again every time new inroads are made with investigation techniques. It's frustrating for us because Namus no longer lists ruleouts for these Does so the same people are brought up again and again.

I apologize if you think I was snarky. That was not my intent.

 

[Ozoner]

I totally agree that fresh eyes can provide new clues to old cases. I wasn't lecturing you.

I've seen the images of Sylvie for decades being brought forward as a potential match for our Jane Doe, not just here on WS. . And her admixture suggests any country background in the Baltic and North Atlantic countries heavily relying on French and Spanish mixed. So the UID definitely could be French Canadian.

I just think we forget that LE have access to the same missing persons files that we do and in the 40+ years not one new investigator with fresh eyes has ever brought Sylvie or Lucie Gelinas up as possible matches. So it worries me when people suggest to submit them as a match to LE.

The Does look French or Spanish or Persian to me, too. And their admixture suggests those countries, too. And believe me, I've toyed with both Lucie AND Sylvie as possible matches which means so have LE. I see Lucie and Sylvie as low hanging fruit because of their superficial similarities and have been investigated over and over again every time new inroads are made with investigation techniques. It's frustrating for us because Namus no longer lists ruleouts for these Does so the same people are brought up again and again.

I apologize if you think I was snarky. That was not my intent.

It is safe to assume that these Does are not in any national database in the US or Canada. All of the potential matches in those databases have been vetted by now. Either these two people were never reported missing or the reports never made it past local law enforcement in the jurisdiction where the reports were made. That isn't surprising; most people who went missing in the pre-worldwide-web era are not in any of the online databases. Some local police departments used to put missing-person reports in the circular file after a while. We've seen it happen.

 

[branmuffin]

It is safe to assume that these Does are not in any national database in the US or Canada. All of the potential matches in those databases have been vetted by now. Either these two people were never reported missing or the reports never made it past local law enforcement in the jurisdiction where the reports were made. That isn't surprising; most people who went missing in the pre-worldwide-web era are not in any of the online databases. Some local police departments used to put missing-person reports in the circular file after a while. We've seen it happen.

I've seen on previous threads that Sylvie was a rule out. Don't know if that was on Namus before they stopped updating.