Identified! Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #7 Pam Buckley & James P Freund

[djanga]

Joan has updated the spreadsheet with the highest matches from Family Tree DNA, here are the numbers for Sumter couple:
Sumter co Jane Doe: 180 cM
Sumter co Jock Doe: 219 cM

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Joan has updated the spreadsheet with the highest matches from Family Tree DNA, here are the numbers for Sumter couple:
Sumter co Jane Doe: 180 cM
Sumter co Jock Doe: 219 cM

Great that both of them are moving in tandem. After 44 years neither one of them wants to be identified without the other. Jane's top cM was higher on GEDmatch but now Jock says not so fast...

Those look like second or third cousin numbers. In checking my Ancestry matches in that range, I don't have to scroll down very far and while I don't know many of the cousins in the 200 cM range, I do know some of them. And the last names are ones I certainly associate prominently in the family tree.

There is a thread here, "Let this be the year the Sumter County Does are identified..."

It's not exactly like the 1969 moon race. But now that thread is back in the ball game. Of course, that thread was strangely started in late December 2019 so one could argue it already expired.

 

[leilarose68]

AHH these FTDNA matches are SO GOOD!!! I am super duper optimistic now. Unless there's endogamy I think they'll probably be identified soon. Big thanks to Joan!

 

[Andreee]

Joan has updated the spreadsheet with the highest matches from Family Tree DNA, here are the numbers for Sumter couple:
Sumter co Jane Doe: 180 cM
Sumter co Jock Doe: 219 cM

EXCITING! But what does that mean lol?!

 

[djanga]

Joan has updated the spreadsheet with the highest matches from Family Tree DNA, here are the numbers for Sumter couple:
Sumter co Jane Doe: 180 cM
Sumter co Jock Doe: 219 cM

EXCITING! But what does that mean lol?!

The page 20 of this thread contains a very detailed explanation of the geneological results and cMs. I think I can not explain it better

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Nothing to say here .. Just Following

Just Bumping.... not receiving new post notifications

 

[Andreee]

The page 20 of this thread contains a very detailed explanation of the geneological results and cMs. I think I can not explain it better

ok great thanks!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

EXCITING! But what does that mean lol?!

My first time on this thread. I did not know people were working so hard to ID this couple!
It is exciting but I have some questions too about what I’m looking at. I checked the link and I already understand about cM etc. My question is more about how the database works with the cM numbers given for the couple. Do those numbers represent the amount of DNA the database has identified as actually matching them to others, (Apparently in the distant cousin range?) and now we are waiting for further updates that may show matches with more closely related relatives?
I apologize for coming into this late and asking probably stupid questions, but this is pretty fascinating.
Thanks!

 

[Betty P]

My first time on this thread. I did not know people were working so hard to ID this couple!
It is exciting but I have some questions too about what I’m looking at. I checked the link and I already understand about cM etc. My question is more about how the database works with the cM numbers given for the couple. Do those numbers represent the amount of DNA the database has identified as actually matching them to others, (Apparently in the distant cousin range?) and now we are waiting for further updates that may show matches with more closely related relatives?
I apologize for coming into this late and asking probably stupid questions, but this is pretty fascinating.
Thanks!

Yes, I'm not totally up on everything this DNA project is doing, but it appears they got these fairly high matches to each person in the Family Tree database. JMO, from my own experience, it shouldn't be difficult to trace a common ancestor for each with these connections, then trace back down to the Sumter Jane and Jock Does.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

In a quick evaluation of the spreadsheet it looks like FamilyTreeDNA has produced a higher top cM than GEDmatch nearly 3/4 of the time, and valuably so given many higher numbers on FamilyTreeDNA. There are 12 Does on FamilyTreeDNA with top cM of 150 or higher, compared to 4 on GEDmatch (not counting the huge endogamy for either).

The difference may be a simple matter of procedure and therefore percentage of database availability. From my understanding, GEDmatch users were automatically opted out of law enforcement access in that high profile change nearly two years ago, and have to opt back in for their profiles to be available. I think FamilyTreeDNA did it the other way...with all users opted in at default, but with opportunity to opt out.

That by itself is going to create a massive tilt in availability.

Also, in sampling genealogy forums it appears FamilyTreeDNA takes a liberal approach to its algorithms -- producing high numbers -- while other companies and notably Ancestry apply a conservative approach. I have seen frequent mentions on related sites that the same relative on Ancestry will typically produce a lower cM than on other sites.

This person uploaded their endogamy results to the prominent DNA sites and posted a table comparing the various results. FamilyTreeDNA produced by far the greatest number and percentage of > 50 cM results. The table itself depicts the liberal interpretation by FamilyTreeDNA compared to very conservative by Ancestry. The > 50 cM matches totaled 15,326 on FamilyTreeDNA compared to only 56 on Ancestry, despite the number of total matches being 8x higher on Ancestry:

Compare Your Number of DNA Matches Among Companies « Louis Kessler's Behold Blog

The user provided this summary:

"That’s because Ancestry uses their Timber algorithm to eliminate many segments they consider to be false. Whereas Family Tree DNA have a lot of matches 50 cM or more simply because they include segments right down to 1 cM in their total, and therefore will have a larger Total cM than the same match at another company."

 

[retrometro]

This definitely sounds like promising news! I know very little about DNA/genealogical tracing, so I appreciate the speculation the speculation.

Regarding the discussion about LGH upthread, the thing that's frustrating about this case is that even if Jock and Jane are positively identified, we probably aren't going to get definite answers about who killed them or why. (I suppose it's possible that we'll be able to make some inferences if it turns out that they had a direct personal connection to LGH or family, but that seems unlikely). But giving them their names back will be a positive step.

 

[Ozoner]

This definitely sounds like promising news! I know very little about DNA/genealogical tracing, so I appreciate the speculation the speculation.

Regarding the discussion about LGH upthread, the thing that's frustrating about this case is that even if Jock and Jane are positively identified, we probably aren't going to get definite answers about who killed them or why. (I suppose it's possible that we'll be able to make some inferences if it turns out that they had a direct personal connection to LGH or family, but that seems unlikely). But giving them their names back will be a positive step.

It depends. If it turns out that they had a vehicle that went missing, then we might be able to trace it if it was ever re-titled.

 

[T rex]

This definitely sounds like promising news! I know very little about DNA/genealogical tracing, so I appreciate the speculation the speculation.

Regarding the discussion about LGH upthread, the thing that's frustrating about this case is that even if Jock and Jane are positively identified, we probably aren't going to get definite answers about who killed them or why. (I suppose it's possible that we'll be able to make some inferences if it turns out that they had a direct personal connection to LGH or family, but that seems unlikely). But giving them their names back will be a positive step.

It depends. If it turns out that they had a vehicle that went missing, then we might be able to trace it if it was ever re-titled.

When the identities of these people are known their surviving families certainly have the right to react to it however they wish but I hope one or both of them will push this at least a little, that is the murder side of this case because LE could have information that has never been released and we don't know what that info along with their names could lead to.

 

[Onaliv]

When the identities of these people are known their surviving families certainly have the right to react to it however they wish but I hope one or both of them will push this at least a little, that is the murder side of this case because LE could have information that has never been released and we don't know what that info along with their names could lead to.

One of the things rarely discussed over the years is that the families may well know the victims' fate (could have even been involved - it happens) and had reasons to remain anonymous and out of the limelight. If they weren't aware, seems incredible they were never reported missing (as far as we know).

 

[Susikatze]

Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Many are estranged from their families or known to lead an independent life with only sporadic contact.

 

[retrometro]

When the identities of these people are known their surviving families certainly have the right to react to it however they wish but I hope one or both of them will push this at least a little, that is the murder side of this case because LE could have information that has never been released and we don't know what that info along with their names could lead to.

Yes, definitely. I would still support a full investigation, especially if the families wants one. I would be very pleased if we could figure out what led to the murders and who was responsible for them. My point upthread was that it's very possible we could get positive identification and still not get those answers.

 

[Ozoner]

Yes, definitely. I would still support a full investigation, especially if the families wants one. I would be very pleased if we could figure out what led to the murders and who was responsible for them. My point upthread was that it's very possible we could get positive identification and still not get those answers.

I would support a full investigation regardless of what the family wants. The victims are entitled to the pursuit of justice.

 

[AliceInPain]

I don't understand this discussion.
The families will have no say in whether the murders are investigated or not.
They likely won't even get to decide whether their identities should be released or not.
These kids didn't die by their own hand and it wasn't an accident, it's up to LE how to go about investigating this and what to release.
Also, if the families would be against an investigation, wouldn't that be suspicious af.
What am I missing.
?

 

[T rex]

I don't understand this discussion.
The families will have no say in whether the murders are investigated or not.
They likely won't even get to decide whether their identities should be released or not.
These kids didn't die by their own hand and it wasn't an accident, it's up to LE how to go about investigating this and what to release.
Also, if the families would be against an investigation, wouldn't that be suspicious af.
What am I missing.
?

Not a lot to understand. More gets done on a case when the family gets behind it. That's all.

 

[retrometro]

Yeah, my response to T Rex above was to clarify that I fully support an investigation. It’s a minor point and I didn’t mean for it to derail the thread.