NC - 12-year-old dies at Trails Carolina wilderness therapy camp, Lake Toxaway, February 2024

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I keep coming back to, if it's illegal for parents to do it to their kid, it should be illegal for them to pay someone else to do it.

I doubt anyone would think it's ok if parents did the things alleged to their child, no matter the reason. We read stories all the time on here about kids who are forced to sleep on the floor, deprived of food or showers, intentionally humiliated, and on and on. The behavior of the parents isn't condoned just because they were raising a problem child. Abuse is abuse. So why then is it legal for parents to pay a camp to carry out such actions?

IMO, ALL of these camps should be thoroughly investigated and any and all staff involved in treating children this way should be criminally charged for child abuse.

JMO
 
I don't understand how these types of abusive therapy techniques are not completely illegal. Even murderers and child molesters aren't treated this badly in prison, because they have rights. Juveniles aren't property, they are humans who should be entitled to the same basic human decency that adults are entitled to by law. My hope is that people in the fields of childhood development and psychiatry can come together and impess on government officials the damage these treatments do to a still developing brain and psyche. I wouldn't be surprised if these places use the money they are raking in to influence heads of departments that oversee these camps. Why else are they let off with fines and not shut down?
 
I don't know but I think I can understand the justification for some of the 'tough love' techniques used in some of the camps.

The starting point is to look at the context of the situation. In my upper income suburban area, there were some troubled kids whose issues were built upon them being totally spoiled, pampered, treated like divas----and they were often obnoxious, selfish, entitled little criminals with no compassion.

They didn't care about anyone else including their families, stole from stores even though they had plenty of money, and were cruel hearted. Things got out of control and they really didn't give a damn.

Two of the kids I am speaking about agreed, after much pressure from their families, and an ultimatum that they would be cut off and kicked out of the home----they eventually agreed to go to a working ranch in the high desert in Bakersfield area. A long ways away from the Malibu Hills.

From what their parents told me later---the kids were expected to live in very meager, sparse surroundings to begin with. They were started out in a barn type structure, with a rolled out foam to sleep on, and a blanket. On the dirt floor. Surrounded by the horses, which they were taught to groom and clean up after.

IF they did the chores they were assigned, they were moved into the bunkhouse, with more comfortable sleeping arrangements and better meals.

And it continued in that way----do the assigned chores and your life improves gradually but positively. And the chores included things like one on one therapies and counselling and attending small group therapy. And teaching the new arrivals about how to move up and be successful.

The kids needed to understand that they had to work for their creature comforts----AND their parents attended some of the therapy sessions and took accountability for their transgressions----like rewarding their kids with possessions and new cars instead of giving them quality time that they really needed and wanted.

So if you just look at the raw facts of the first week at the work camp---and were told they slept on a barn floor surrounded by horses, and they had to groom the horses and clean up their excrement in order to get their own meals served to them---it could sound like child abuse. AND IT WOULD BE IF THERE WAAS NO WAY OUT.

But the entire purpose was to illustrate that by working hard for the first 3 days they were REWARDED with a comfortable bunk bed in a nice clean bunkhouse and allowed to play video games with the others---AS LONG AS THEY ALL COOPERATED WITH THE TREATMENT SCHEDULES AND ACTIVITIES.

It only works if the entire family is involved in the process from what I've seen.
 
Simply Southern said:
It it were life threatening DCF/CPS can and do get a court order. I've know judges to be awaken at night to sign an emergency order. Moo

In the event of an unexplained death, the provider is required to notify Behavior Health Licensing, immediately or as soon as they are open.

BH will make an immediate visit with a team from licensure. BH we all review charts, medication records, employees files, full property and facility inspection. Ensure facility is safe and incompliance.
BH can close the doors immediately and move clients to other facilities, if immediate danger or neglect.

BH board and director of DHS issued a letter to suspend new admissions. This is a normal protocol, once the COD and investigation is complete, if no ill findings, admissions will resume.

If the BHLB believes personal client interviews are needed for an investigation they will petition a judge.

I've experienced death investigations in BH, ALF and LTC, over my career. I bet the folks from Raleigh were their within hours. Its the same protocols for all facilities housing/providing care, involving an unexplained death.

All my opinion

As you can read, the guidelines are very stringent.
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The camp wouldn’t allow the social workers access and they removed the children to another camp they own, so they wouldn’t be available.
 
katydid23 said:
I don't know but I think I can understand the justification for some of the 'tough love' techniques used in some of the camps.

The starting point is to look at the context of the situation. In my upper income suburban area, there were some troubled kids whose issues were built upon them being totally spoiled, pampered, treated like divas----and they were often obnoxious, selfish, entitled little criminals with no compassion.

They didn't care about anyone else including their families, stole from stores even though they had plenty of money, and were cruel hearted. Things got out of control and they really didn't give a damn.

Two of the kids I am speaking about agreed, after much pressure from their families, and an ultimatum that they would be cut off and kicked out of the home----they eventually agreed to go to a working ranch in the high desert in Bakersfield area. A long ways away from the Malibu Hills.

From what their parents told me later---the kids were expected to live in very meager, sparse surroundings to begin with. They were started out in a barn type structure, with a rolled out foam to sleep on, and a blanket. On the dirt floor. Surrounded by the horses, which they were taught to groom and clean up after.

IF they did the chores they were assigned, they were moved into the bunkhouse, with more comfortable sleeping arrangements and better meals.

And it continued in that way----do the assigned chores and your life improves gradually but positively. And the chores included things like one on one therapies and counselling and attending small group therapy. And teaching the new arrivals about how to move up and be successful.

The kids needed to understand that they had to work for their creature comforts----AND their parents attended some of the therapy sessions and took accountability for their transgressions----like rewarding their kids with possessions and new cars instead of giving them quality time that they really needed and wanted.

So if you just look at the raw facts of the first week at the work camp---and were told they slept on a barn floor surrounded by horses, and they had to groom the horses and clean up their excrement in order to get their own meals served to them---it could sound like child abuse. AND IT WOULD BE IF THERE WAAS NO WAY OUT.

But the entire purpose was to illustrate that by working hard for the first 3 days they were REWARDED with a comfortable bunk bed in a nice clean bunkhouse and allowed to play video games with the others---AS LONG AS THEY ALL COOPERATED WITH THE TREATMENT SCHEDULES AND ACTIVITIES.

It only works if the entire family is involved in the process from what I've seen.
Click to expand...
I can see this for spoiled brats: sometimes a bit of unspoiled time can make them shape up. I understand horses can really help with mental health, having some responsibilities and structure, etc. so, this set up seems like it would find some basis in evidence.

It’s when we get to the arena of desperately troubled kids, kids on the spectrum, and they're being subjected to restraints and being tortured with nature…
 
<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

This precious 12yo child died alone in the dark. How could this little boy's life have been saved? When and where did it go wrong for him? Why would a poison be mentioned in relation to his death because surely not? I know his knees were bent but were his feet on the ground or touching the floor? tia It prob only matters to me.
 
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DeDee said:
<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

This precious 12yo child died alone in the dark. How could this little boy's life have been saved? When and where did it go wrong for him? Why would a poison be mentioned in relation to his death because surely not? I know his knees were bent but were his feet on the ground or touching the floor? tia It prob only matters to me.
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Poison was suggested because of the foam. Poison is one of the things that can cause it. (Asphyxia and drowning are two other major causes.)

IMO, I believe asphyxia is more likely in this case, because petechiae were also observed.

MOO
 
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Imo

The most concerning evidence is the lack of clothing with no staff members being able to describe the circumstances that led to this.

I also worry that another child may have attacked the victim and he wasn't able to defend himself or escape the attack due to being unsafely restrained in the sleeping enclosure. It sounds like the other children were not restrained and free to move about the bunkhouse.

The statement given to law enforcement makes it seem as though staff were not constantly supervising children and only checked in on them every few hours. This may explain the lack of information coming from staff

As a former middle school teacher who worked in urban classrooms, I can't envision a situation here where any lapse of adult supervision would be safe
 
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Cedars said:
I know a local father was appalled that his son played 'too many' video games. He was angry and took the gamer away completely, 'forever' - the boy ran away and killed himself.
Click to expand...

Let's talk about video game/screen addiction. Do you have experience with it?

Maybe some parents think sending their child to a "wilderness" camp will help.

Screen-addiction is a real and growing problem. There are teens who will try to spend every minute at home using them. They get around the parental control settings pretty easily. They buy, borrow, steal, sneak new devices. They leave school to go use devices at someone's house. They play for hours, acting like a zombie staring at the screen.

And when the parent takes it away, they may become violent.
This is because the shows, games, and websites are designed by professionals to keep giving people dopamine "hits." If a person is prone to this, it's really tough to stay away for long periods of time.

I have not experienced all of this with my kids but enough that often I wish we were a completely screen-free family, so they would actually want to do other hobbies and activities as their first choice and they would stop asking for screens. Nothing else is their first choice if they are allowed screens, and I'm not exaggerating.

I think the dad you mentioned took away his son's devices to try to break a real addiction. Some parents say doing this is very hard for a few days up to a few weeks, but then the kids start actually wanting to do other things and seem much happier. But you have to break the addiction.
All JMO.

I'm not sure what else that dad could have necessarily done except maybe say it wasn't "forever?"
 
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The information coming out is truly horrifying.

Are the parents told they use these bags?
Do they not have a policy to stay with a teenager who is having a panic attack? I can't see how they are licensed and accredited without written policies and procedures -- so what is their written procedure?

IMO common sense says if you leave people alone having a panic attack inside an enclosed space, it's only a matter of time until asphyxia eventually happens to someone.
 
Protectwomenandgirls said:
Imo

The most concerning evidence is the lack of clothing with no staff members being able to describe the circumstances that led to this.

I also worry that another child may have attacked the victim and he wasn't able to defend himself or escape the attack due to being unsafely restrained in the sleeping enclosure. It sounds like the other children were not restrained and free to move about.

The statement given to law enforcement makes it seem as though staff were not constantly supervising children and only checked in on them every few hours. This may explain the lack of information coming from staff

As a former middle school teacher who worked in urban classrooms, I can't envision a situation here where any lapse of adult supervision would be safe
Click to expand...
I interpreted a little different.

I think think the staff was in the cabin the entire night, especially with a new client.
ChatteringBirds said:
Let's talk about video game/screen addiction. Do you have experience with it?

Maybe some parents think sending their child to a "wilderness" camp will help.

Screen-addiction is a real and growing problem. There are teens who will try to spend every minute at home using them. They get around the parental control settings pretty easily. They buy, borrow, steal, sneak new devices. They leave school to go use devices at someone's house. They play for hours, acting like a zombie staring at the screen.

And when the parent takes it away, they may become violent.
This is because the shows, games, and websites are designed by professionals to keep giving people dopamine "hits." If a person is prone to this, it's really tough to stay away for long periods of time.

I have not experienced all of this with my kids but enough that often I wish we were a completely screen-free family, so they would actually want to do other hobbies and activities as their first choice and they would stop asking for screens. Nothing else is their first choice if they are allowed screens, and I'm not exaggerating.

I think the dad you mentioned took away his son's devices to try to break a real addiction. Some parents say doing this is very hard for a few days up to a few weeks, but then the kids start actually wanting to do other things and seem much happier. But you have to break the addiction.
All JMO.

I'm not sure what else that dad could have necessarily done except maybe say it wasn't "forever?"
Click to expand...
My daughter's in-laws have three boys all with life altering game addiction. All started at an early age. The parents own a large business and has little time for the kids, grandparents kept every weekend.

They stay up all night playing online. The two oldest barely graduated HS, parents supply income, houses-with utilities, food, vehicles and lavish vacations. Their only friends are in the gaming universe.

The 10 yo, "homeschooled" since age 7. Mom completes assignments. He can not read, lacks basic math skills and extremely antisocial, episodes of violent outburst. He's up all night gaming, has an elaborate setup several screens and entire room dedicated to gaming.

Several years ago, at a weekend retreat. The oldest threaten to kill my GS with a "shank", he'd made. My grandkids were in so upset, the grandparents returned to their home. All the way "home" the grandparents begged, my GKs NOT to tell their parents. My granddaughter called her parents at 2am to come get them from the grandparents home.

Sadly, my GKs can not longer be in their present without their parent, especially since the "boys" are in their 20s. This incident has caused many hard feelings from the "boys" parents and the grandparents that tried to "cover up".

Gaming can and is a life altering addiction.
Moo
 
A possibility for the pants that were removed— it sounds like he was not given pajamas. Some people would rather sleep without clothing than wear the dirty clothes they’ve worn all day. Maybe he took them off for comfort?
Just a thought because it is an odd detail.
 
DeDee said:
<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

This precious 12yo child died alone in the dark. How could this little boy's life have been saved? When and where did it go wrong for him? Why would a poison be mentioned in relation to his death because surely not? I know his knees were bent but were his feet on the ground or touching the floor? tia It prob only matters to me.
Click to expand...

You’re not alone, I keep thinking about his position too. Surely if he’d been curled in a fetal position that would have been mentioned?

I did a google search for restraint positions and didn’t see anything similar.
 
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IDK said:
A possibility for the pants that were removed— it sounds like he was not given pajamas. Some people would rather sleep without clothing than wear the dirty clothes they’ve worn all day. Maybe he took them off for comfort?
Just a thought because it is an odd detail.
Click to expand...
LE called attention to the detail. And if the child was restrained in some way, as he seems to have been, IMO it would be hard to come up with a scenario where they’d be removed with the child’s volition?
There has to have been something in this whole event that involves restraining the child because of the odd collection of details in the warrant. There’s something involving a “bivy” (which IMO is a euphemism for an item that’s not a real bivy) which the child couldn’t get out of without alerting the staff. There’s mention of restraints. There’s mention of a plastic ground cloth sheet on the floor of the cabin (which I see absolutely no use for except to protect against body fluids). There’s the odd position of the legs.
 
IDK said:
You’re not alone, I keep thinking about his position too. Surely if he’d been curled in a fetal position that would have been mentioned?

I did a google search for restraint positions and didn’t see anything similar.
Click to expand...
I’m thinking hog-tied. I have this in the forefront of my mind because of a few details in the Franke case, where the child was hog-tied.
I’m thinking they tied his wrists to his ankles, and thus the bent knees.
 
IDK said:
You’re not alone, I keep thinking about his position too. Surely if he’d been curled in a fetal position that would have been mentioned?

I did a google search for restraint positions and didn’t see anything similar.
Click to expand...
They concluded he wasn’t in a fetal position when he died, because of the lividity on his back. Presumably, the blood flows after death to the lowest part of the body, and in this case, it was the back, not the side.
 
IDK said:
A possibility for the pants that were removed— it sounds like he was not given pajamas. Some people would rather sleep without clothing than wear the dirty clothes they’ve worn all day. Maybe he took them off for comfort?
Just a thought because it is an odd detail.
Click to expand...
Two boy grandson, they would run around in underwear or naked, if allowed. They never sleep in the nice pj's they have, nope boxers or commando.

I wonder if he got hot, during or after the panic attack and removed?
Maybe, he sleeps commando.

It is odd, counselors can offer no explanation. I would think if there was any type of nefarious plot to cover up a crime, they would have dressed the child. They had to realize this would be a red flag and create many questions.

Moo...
 
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