NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sep 2012 #2

[Ibiz]

Well, could it really be that simple? I've been thinking, and I do find KR's behavior a bit odd but: maybe because of other reasons. The downstairs neighbor said she heard thumps on the floor. One thump? Two thumps? According to the autopsy report; Faith put up a vigorous fight with her attacker. She had defensive wounds on her hands, and she was brutally beaten about the face, and I do think her attacker would have suffered wounds as well. It seems that there would have been a tremendous amount of noise made during the fight, so I would assume screaming/yelling too. So my question is: why didn't the downstairs neighbor hear more than a thump or two on the floor? Maybe her TV was to loud? I suppose possible, or maybe she was actually sound asleep when the attack took place, and what she heard around 2:40am, was a book bag being dropped on the floor?

I think I might be thinking because there is this DNA that can't be logically explained unless we were to think that the source had to have come from somewhere, and weve been led to believe that it is semen from a twenty-something Latino man.

Now, these two detectives from the ID show; I don't know. They ran though the usual suspects such as BFs and KR, and even mentioned some stranger danger with some theory. One thing I do find interesting is the fact that the apartment where this murder took place was located in a very secluded area of the complex.

So maybe, just maybe, could it be possible that someone (maybe a homeless person) was hanging out by the woods maybe drinking and watching apartments when he spies KR leaving? (Thinking she lives alone), He believes he's found an open opportunity to commit a robbery.

He enters the apartment and walks around, he then finds the bottle with some rum in it, and begins drinking it. As he is drinking the rum from the bottle, and looking for something to steal, he enters the bedroom where Faith wakes up, and a struggle begins as he tries to assault her, but Faith fights back; so the perp uses the rum bottle as a weapon and attacks her with it.

 

[Webthrush]

Well, could it really be that simple? I've been thinking, and I do find KR's behavior a bit odd but: maybe because of other reasons. The downstairs neighbor said she heard thumps on the floor. One thump? Two thumps? According to the autopsy report; Faith put up a vigorous fight with her attacker. She had defensive wounds on her hands, and she was brutally beaten about the face, and I do think her attacker would have suffered wounds as well. It seems that there would have been a tremendous amount of noise made during the fight, so I would assume screaming/yelling too. So my question is: why didn't the downstairs neighbor hear more than a thump or two on the floor? Maybe her TV was to loud? I suppose possible, or maybe she was actually sound asleep when the attack took place, and what she heard around 2:40am, was a book bag being dropped on the floor?

I think I might be thinking because there is this DNA that can't be logically explained unless we were to think that the source had to have come from somewhere, and weve been led to believe that it is semen from a twenty-something Latino man.

Now, these two detectives from the ID show; I don't know. They ran though the usual suspects such as BFs and KR, and even mentioned some stranger danger with some theory. One thing I do find interesting is the fact that the apartment where this murder took place was located in a very secluded area of the complex.

So maybe, just maybe, could it be possible that someone (maybe a homeless person) was hanging out by the woods maybe drinking and watching apartments when he spies KR leaving? (Thinking she lives alone), He believes he's found an open opportunity to commit a robbery.

He enters the apartment and walks around, he then finds the bottle with some rum in it, and begins drinking it. As he is drinking the rum from the bottle, and looking for something to steal, he enters the bedroom where Faith wakes up, and a struggle begins as he tries to assault her, but Faith fights back; so the perp uses the rum bottle as a weapon and attacks her with it.

The above theory has been put forth before, and as someone who leans toward “stranger” theories I still consider it plausible.

People keep looking at contingencies with Karena and Eric and thinking certain things have to be more than just coincidence. But the contingency that still most bothers me (as more than coincidence) is that the women go to a rowdy nightclub where they are exposed to dozens (hundreds?) of male strangers and then a few hours later one is found murdered — that’s a ready-made large pool of suspects right there.

 

[Ibiz]

I don't think that theory has been brought fourth before. Maybe something simular, but not as good as that one.

 

[Webthrush]

I don't think that theory has been brought fourth before. Maybe something simular, but not as good as that one.

It has definitely come up before, both regarding the woods behind Faith’s building, and homeless encampments in nearby areas. People don’t take it seriously (though I do) or dwell on it because they think too much points to this being a “personal” crime. No matter what theory you choose certain elements don't fit well.

 

[CADwrest]

Wow, step away from the thread for a few days and things go crazy!

Not exactly. They talked about the male DNA evidence, the fact that some 800 people have been swabbed and mentioned that this or that suspect, e.g., ETJ, has been cleared in connection to it. They simply didn't place the same emphasis upon this evidence that others do. <snipped>

I more or less said that in my first post- it’s what I meant when I said they’d obliquely acknowledged the DNA. But what they don’t acknowledge is that the DNA belongs to an unknown person, someone definitely not in Faith’s immediate circle and not even in the 800 people tested. It’s fine to note that the apartment is contaminated with all of their DNA (KR, ETJ, TM)- that’s almost certainly true. But there is another set of DNA there, and it only appears on objects relating to the murder.

To me, that’s a pretty huge thing to leave out. And it’s fine to try to come up with explanations for it. But I’ve never heard one I found at all convincing, and I certainly don’t think it should just be ignored or casually dismissed.

I think the question should be: WHY didn't she lock the door? According to the testimony she gave on her PPO; one of her BFs who just lived across the lot from her was a mad man. I'm assuming that this was a deadbolt lock, and had to be locked with a key. She told CHIPs that she did not lock the door because Faith had the key, but if Faith was up at 4:am playing on FB, and writing mushy love letters; then why did KR not just tell Faith of her plans, and that she needed to lock the door after she left?

See post #92 in this thread. I talked about the door being unlocked pretty extensively there.

The autopsy rules out rape. As for any alleged "sexual assault" (without rape), the only evidence pointing towards this is the semen and the shirt, which the ID investigators basically interpret as crime scene "staging". Now admittedly, how you get the stranger's semen there is a perplexing and open question, but I think there is reason to say that we cannot say for sure that this was a sexual assault. There is some ambiguity here. Indeed I would challenge the logic of the sexual assault theory: this unknown male entered the apartment at 4:30am in order to rape Faith, then sexually assaulted her and bludgeoned her to death, but never actually had sex with her? Huh? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

I would be onboard with the staging idea if the following were true.

1. There was no note, and no DNA on it or the pen.
2. The only DNA on the bottle was KR’s or other people known to have handled it.
3. There was no semen on Faith’s body, matching the DNA of the other items.

The show does make a factual mistake. They read the autopsy report, note the lack of semen reported in it, and the lack of trauma, and conclude no rape took place. That’s fair, and I agree with that at this point. But based on that conversation, they act like there was no semen evidence at all. That isn’t true. Just undressing her is a pretty simple act of staging, covering her with semen and planting matching DNA on other objects is not. Especially considering everyone seems to think the crime was committed in an impulsive act of rage by a drunk girl with no history of violence.

 

[CADwrest]

Skigirl needs to watch the ID program. The autopsy rules out rape. As for any alleged "sexual assault" (without rape), the only evidence pointing towards this is the semen and the shirt, which the ID investigators basically interpret as crime scene "staging". Now admittedly, how you get the stranger's semen there is a perplexing and open question, but I think there is reason to say that we cannot say for sure that this was a sexual assault. There is some ambiguity here. Indeed I would challenge the logic of the sexual assault theory: this unknown male entered the apartment at 4:30am in order to rape Faith, then sexually assaulted her and bludgeoned her to death, but never actually had sex with her? Huh? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

"Investigators found semen on Hedgepeth, but they have not said if she had been sexually assaulted before she was killed. DNA from the semen matched male DNA found elsewhere in the apartment."

http://www.wral.com/newly-released-docs-detail-police-s-case-in-unc-student-s-murder/13954237/

I think we're kind of getting into the weeds here. If she wasn't raped (and I'm convinced now she wasn't), I think she was at very least sexually assaulted. The operative word in your second post is "before". I believe the sexual component of the crime did not happen until the beating had already taken place, when she was either dead or very nearly so.

Technically, if she was already dead, it isn't sexual assault.

 

[CADwrest]

I think KR knows or at least strongly suspects what happened, even if she didn&#8217;t actively participate. Her intense effort to build an alibi during the 911 call is notable, and I find it extremely odd that she did not mention Marisol was with her when she found Faith&#8217;s body.

A lot gets said about the 9-11 call, and I think the context of the situation is very important to remember.

1. For starters, KR doesn't need to build an alibi with the dispatcher. Even if she'd committed the crime, she'd already spend hours creating an alibi with JM, and then MR.
2. KR knows something is wrong, but not exactly what it is. Her friend is off the bed. She's half naked. There's blood everywhere. But there's a shirt over Faith's head, so the source of the injury is unclear. She even says "I don't know where it came from" regarding the blood.
3. KR (and we know from the show MR was helping too) doesn't understand how what she's seeing actually occurred. When she says "I don't know what happened", she's explaining to the dispatcher that she didn't see what took place. If she'd been watching Faith jump on the bed, and saw her fall off and hit her head on the dresser, the dispatcher is going to have follow-up questions to determine the source and extent of the injury. KR is telling her in an indirect way that she doesn't know those answers.
4. There's a change in KR's perception about midway through the call, when (IMO) she realizes she's seeing a murder and not an accident. She says (paraphrase) "It looks like someone came in here" and "There's stuff here that wasn't before."

I think if you listen to the call with those assumptions in mind, it's a lot less suspicious.

 

[SteveP]

Wow. Lots of information I didn&#8217;t know and somethings were confirmed that I did know but because of TOS I wasn&#8217;t able to discuss. Take aways I found to be of interest:
1. According to Faith&#8217;s mother, Connie, they weren&#8217;t given a chance to identity the body...not sure if she meant because they were not allowed to go into the apartment or if she meant not at all even after Faith&#8217;s body was sent for the autopsy.
2. It was stated that they left Thrill in Karena&#8217;s vehicle...I always thought they took Faith&#8217;s vehicle-I thought I read that in files disclosed...haven&#8217;t had a chance to find yet to confirm.
3. Marisol says On the morning of September 7, 2012 Karena tried to reach out to Faith for a ride and got no response. She reached out to Marisol to see if she could get a response from Faith. I found this to be interesting because what would be the reason behind Faith not responding to Karena but responding to Marisol.
4. Marisol stated that she thought that they would go and pick up Faith and give them a ride to campus instead of them having to ride the bus. I found this interesting because according to the investigators conducting the show they allege that they left thrill and Karena&#8217;s vehicle. We also know that Faith had a vehicle as it was parked in the parking lot of the apartment complex. So maybe they didn&#8217;t have an on-campus parking pass? Otherwise I&#8217;m not sure why they would need a ride to avoid taking the bus if both girls had a vehicle.
5. In the show they interviewed a forensic pathologist Who had reviewed the autopsy. He states that he cannot conclude for sure that she was sexually assaulted as the vagina was intact no visible injuries inside or out.
6. A new dynamic was brought to the forefront that I can now discuss...Faith had an on and off boyfriend at UNC, Ty and a hometown boyfriend, Alex. Ty text with Faith on September 6, 2012 around 640-ish p.m. he asks if they are still getting together that night. She does not reply. The next message Ty gets from her is around 350-ish a.m. on September 7, 2012. Two friends state that Ty Was very possessive of faith. They bring up two occasions,that were disturbing to me, showing controlling and abusive behavior. Both Euna and Roland looked at the message that was allegedly sent from Faith&#8217;s phone to Ty&#8217;s at 3:50-ish a.m. on September 7, 2012 and both thought it did not sound like it was Faith that sent the text message. Ty believes it was Faith who sent the message. Faith also had another boyfriend a high school sweetheart Alex. They had been on and off since high school. Euna says that around the time of Faith&#8217;s murder that Faith had expressed to her about going back and being in a relationship with Alex. This is why Euna believes it was not Faith that texted Ty the early hours of September 7, 2012.
7. Kiera, a roommate of Faith and Karena, stated while she was living with Karena and faith that both faith and Karena had live in boyfriends. Eriq and Alex. I believe this was before they moved to Hawthorn apartments.
8. The investigators working on the show texted with a roommate of Jordan McCrery, the man who picked up Karena the early hours on September 7, 2012. He wants to remain anonymous. He did say that the police did search their house for Karena&#8217;s ShiRt, which they found. This roommate also speculates that another roommate thought they may have seen a speck of red on the shirt they would not conclusively say whether they thought it was blood or not. This roommate also states that the other roommate did tell police about the speck of red on the shirt when questioned.

Those are my initial take aways from the show. CHPD was tight lipped as it is still an active investigation. I have thought for a very long time there was too much exculpatory evidence in regards to a few &#8220;people of interest&#8221;


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One of the things that most stood out for me was the investigators' belief that it is not a lack of DNA hampering the case, but too much of it, in that Ty, Takoy, or Karena's DNA found in the apartment would not necessarily implicate them in the murder. I never knew about this guy, Ty, until watching last night. And I know the regulars on this thread are about evenly split, but I have always, and still do believe that KR has some level of knowledge or involvement that she has never shared, and agree that the murder scene could very well have been staged. JMO

 

[Ibiz]

Wow, step away from the thread for a few days and things go crazy! .



See post #92 in this thread. I talked about the door being unlocked .

I don't have time to go way back to post 92, but I don't think that was covered.

 

[CADwrest]

I just wanted to bring forward the text message between Faith and TM, sent at 3:52AM on 9/7/2012. It was apparently sent in 3 parts (and I believe the middle and last parts were switched on TM's phone in the episode). I'm putting it in order but otherwise leaving it the way it appeared in the episode (which starts around the 29 minute mark):

I know youre probably sleeping but i just wanted to let you know that I love you. Not a day goes by that you don&#8217;t cross my mind. I know if will be like this fo

r the rest if my life because of what we&#8217;ve been through together. Besides that i still feel the same and still love you the same. Sorry for being in my feeling

s. But hey without feelings we wouldn&#8217;t have life&#8230;sometimes I feel like you are my life

 

[Webthrush]

I just wanted to bring forward the text message between Faith and TM, sent at 3:52AM on 9/7/2012. It was apparently sent in 3 parts (and I believe the middle and last parts were switched on TM's phone in the episode). I'm putting it in order but otherwise leaving it the way it appeared in the episode (which starts around the 29 minute mark):

I know youre probably sleeping but i just wanted to let you know that I love you. Not a day goes by that you don’t cross my mind. I know if will be like this for
the rest if my life because of what we’ve been through together. Besides that i still feel the same and still love you the same. Sorry for being in my feelings.
But hey without feelings we wouldn’t have life…sometimes I feel like you are my life

-----------

I’m used to short texts over the phone, but I guess maybe texts this long & emotive are normal for younger folks?
And any thoughts on why this new (somewhat suspicious) individual is only just now (5+ YEARS later) coming to light? I can only wonder if police cleared him long ago, and so didn’t want to drag him into the spotlight when they released plenty of documents at the 2-year point?

 

[CADwrest]

-----------

I’m used to short texts over the phone, but I guess maybe texts this long & emotive are normal for younger folks?
And any thoughts on why this new (somewhat suspicious) individual is only just now (5+ YEARS later) coming to light? I can only wonder if police cleared him long ago, and so didn’t want to drag him into the spotlight when they released plenty of documents at the 2-year point?

BBM. I think that's exactly right. He probably had his time in the spotlight with LE and then they moved on. (Of course, IMO he's a far more likely suspect than some of the guys who are in the released documents... go figure.)

I agree with that. They do raise some things he did that are suspicious, but if you notice, his MO was to go find her by himself, not bring other people along with him. Since he clearly isn't a match for the DNA himself, I think he's another dead end.

ETA: I really think the most significant thing about that segment was the text Faith supposedly sent him, but I'm still mulling that over. FWIW, I think she did send it- IMO it's far too long and involved to be a decoy text.

 

[youlostone]

-----------

I’m used to short texts over the phone, but I guess maybe texts this long & emotive are normal for younger folks?
And any thoughts on why this new (somewhat suspicious) individual is only just now (5+ YEARS later) coming to light? I can only wonder if police cleared him long ago, and so didn’t want to drag him into the spotlight when they released plenty of documents at the 2-year point?

I agree with this. I believe he was intentionally kept out of the spotlight by everyone. I always assumed he was the unknown male she reportedly went to see when she stepped away from the library (don’t know if that’s true, just my speculation as it could have just as easily been someone else who’s uninvolved)

 

[Prancy]

I thought the Breaking Homicide episode did a great job and it provided a lot of the information that I have been asking about for years. This case is solvable and I can barely wait until they make an arrest. I believe they will. When they do, the mysterious DNA will be explained.

 

[youlostone]

I&#8217;m still not done watching yet but Whew this episode was VERY MESSY (meaning a lot of people are starting to tell what they know and their opinions on things). Really hoping this helps them to close the case.

 

[Ibiz]

Well? At this point I'm pretty well stumped.. I really thought I might of hit a home run yesterday with my homeless robber theory, but now that I think about it today, I realize that a homeless/drunk murderer would not have written the note on the paper bag.

Also, now that I have read the text message posted by ""CADwrest,"" IN POST NUMBER ""290,"" I'm having trouble believing it was written by Faith. The message seems hastily written; almost as if the person who wrote it was intoxicated, or was in a state of panic or disarray. Also, the way Faith's friend describe the relationship that Faith had with the recipient of the message, I highly doubt that she wrote it.

I do not think any of the BFs murdered Faith, but if you want to exercise your brain a bit, you can refer to: POST # "213," where I describe what could have been a secret flirting relationship - or an emotional affair with a semi-stranger. Possibly she did not speak about, or have on social media, or in her phone. He did not attend school with her, and was beyond her social circle. He may have taken the flirting for much more then what it was, and possibly started watching/stalking Faith. He could have been engulfed with emotion/jealousy/rage, and entered the apartment that morning after seeing KR leave.

This could have been someone who worked at the Time Out where the bag the note was written on came from. (See "Skigirl," POST # "212,") or possibly a customer from the Red Robin.

In closing, I feel we are between KR, and my above theory.

 

[Lamima]

Just watched the show. Man, my gut feelings have always been KR was involved. But then it seemed she was cleared by LE, and then LE had that DNA profile picture of a Latino male. But now, after watching this new show, I am back to my gut feeling. And I feel like Derek and Chris were on that same page too.

I feel like the 2:40 thumping sounds heard by neighbor was the attack. I don't think Faith sent that text to TM. Could have been to stage that Faith was still alive....and maybe lead to TM coming over and finding Faith. Then maybe LE would think he did it.

The DNA....would love to know more about it. What was it and where all it was found?

 

[CADwrest]

The DNA....would love to know more about it. What was it and where all it was found?

RSBM

DNA was found in the form of semen on Faith's body and the bedding. Matching DNA was found on the rum bottle, the note, and the pen used to write the note. That's the sample that was used to generate the picture of the Latino male.

 

[CADwrest]

I had some time today to delve into the new Investigation Discovery timeline and cross reference it with other information we had access to before. Up front, this is going to be a long post.

To start, I want to bump Whiskers16 post from October 29th, 2017. It is a very well-researched and sourced compendium of all the information we had at the point it was done. Anyone wanting to learn about the facts of this case would be well advised to start there. https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...el-Hill-7-Sept-2012-2&p=13722898#post13722898

Now, one problem we have is that we depend on these shows to accurately pass on to us what their sources tell them, or what their independent investigation uncovers. Whenever there&#8217;s a new story about the case, we eagerly share it, and oftentimes we will point out discrepancies with what we&#8217;ve learned previously. Unfortunately, we&#8217;re not really in a position to know who is right, but we can at least note differences from what we&#8217;ve been told before. Just because something is the latest word doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean it&#8217;s right and the previous info was wrong.

That said, I wanted to get into the ID episode and how it differs from what we&#8217;ve heard before. The timeline is subtly different. Previously, this is what we had:

Faith and KR exit Thrill 2:06 AM (ABC 20/20 Special)
Girls leave Thrill 2:38 AM (Crime Watch Daily)
Arrive at apartment 3 AM (20/20)
Thumps heard by neighbor 3 AM (ABC article Sept 2016)
Faith sends two texts to BE 3:40 AM - 3:43 AM (CWD)
KR makes calls to BE 3:42, 3:52, 3:55, and 4:14 AM (released CHPD case documents)
KR leaves with JM 4:27 AM (ABC and CWD; case documents have the time at &#8220;about 4:30 AM&#8221.

Much of this is different from what ID reports. Their timeline is as follows (obtained via freeze frame at 8:21)

&#8220;Last seen alive 2:07 AM&#8221;
&#8220;Arrive at apartment 2:30 AM&#8221;
&#8220;Thumps heard by neighbor 2:40 AM&#8221;
&#8220;Two text messages 3:40 &#8211; 3:43 AM&#8221;
&#8220;Karena leaves apartment 4:25 AM&#8221;
&#8220;Faith found dead 11 AM&#8221;

They do not mention the calls between KR and BE; they do mention Faith&#8217;s text to him and misconstrue the meaning of his reply. Later in the show, they interview TM, who shows them a text from Faith at 3:52 AM (this is new information for us, both TM&#8217;s existence and the text).

What to make of this? Did ID get new information from CHPD, or other sources regarding the timeline? If so, it&#8217;s not shown. The only interaction with CHPD is their interview with Lt. Lehew at the beginning of the show. They aren&#8217;t shown talking to any Thrill employees or the downstairs neighbor. It&#8217;s certainly possible that they have a reason for these changes, but we aren&#8217;t told what they are.

In any event, the ID investigators conclude that the thumps heard at 2:40 were Faith being killed. There are problems with this conclusion:

1. The previous timeline established that the girls did not leave Thrill until 2:38 AM and didn&#8217;t arrive back until almost 3 AM.
2. The thumps were previously reported as happening simultaneously with their arrival.
3. Faith was killed in the bedroom, apparently while on the bed. Their interpretation is that Faith was killed within moments of her arrival back at the apartment. It is unlikely that she would have immediately climbed into bed and fallen asleep, especially if (as theorized on the show) she was quarrelling with KR.
4. Crime Watch Daily reported that police told them Faith was killed after 4:30 AM.

Given the previous timeline, and the fact that ID does not justify or explain their changes, I believe it more likely that the thumps were noises incidental to the girls&#8217; arrival back at the apartment, given that both were previously reported to have occurred around 3 AM.

One final note:

I&#8217;d previous suspected that KR used Faith&#8217;s phone to send texts to BE on her own behalf. The times between the calls from KR&#8217;s phone and the texts from Faith&#8217;s were staggered: A text at 3:40, a call at 3:42, a text at 3:43, then calls at 3:52, 3:55, and 4:14. The TM text calls that idea into question. Note that the KR call to BE was at 3:52:19 and lasted until 3:52:58, and Faith&#8217;s text to TM was sent sometime during the same minute.

Unfortunately, that doesn&#8217;t quite prove Faith was alive then, as we don&#8217;t know the precise second the text was sent, and it&#8217;s possible to type up a text and not send it right away. But it is intriguing.

 

[Webthrush]

One thing brought up by surprisingly few of the live-Tweeters of the BH broadcast is the question of fingerprints&#8230; Police have what I presume is &#8216;touch DNA&#8217; of the perp from the bag, the pen, the bottle, yet have never mentioned fingerprints (even from doorknobs or other objects)??? What gives? Are they all so smudged or wiped as to be unusable &#8212; even one single thumb print can sometimes break a case, and the nationwide database(s) for fingerprints would be much larger than the DNA database.