NC NC - Faith Hedgepeth, 19, UNC student, Chapel Hill, 7 Sep 2012 #2

[youlostone]

I had some time today to delve into the new Investigation Discovery timeline and cross reference it with other information we had access to before. Up front, this is going to be a long post.

To start, I want to bump Whiskers16 post from October 29th, 2017. It is a very well-researched and sourced compendium of all the information we had at the point it was done. Anyone wanting to learn about the facts of this case would be well advised to start there. https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...el-Hill-7-Sept-2012-2&p=13722898#post13722898

Now, one problem we have is that we depend on these shows to accurately pass on to us what their sources tell them, or what their independent investigation uncovers. Whenever there’s a new story about the case, we eagerly share it, and oftentimes we will point out discrepancies with what we’ve learned previously. Unfortunately, we’re not really in a position to know who is right, but we can at least note differences from what we’ve been told before. Just because something is the latest word doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right and the previous info was wrong.

That said, I wanted to get into the ID episode and how it differs from what we’ve heard before. The timeline is subtly different. Previously, this is what we had:

Faith and KR exit Thrill 2:06 AM (ABC 20/20 Special)
Girls leave Thrill 2:38 AM (Crime Watch Daily)
Arrive at apartment 3 AM (20/20)
Thumps heard by neighbor 3 AM (ABC article Sept 2016)
Faith sends two texts to BE 3:40 AM - 3:43 AM (CWD)
KR makes calls to BE 3:42, 3:52, 3:55, and 4:14 AM (released CHPD case documents)
KR leaves with JM 4:27 AM (ABC and CWD; case documents have the time at “about 4:30 AM&#8221.

Much of this is different from what ID reports. Their timeline is as follows (obtained via freeze frame at 8:21)

“Last seen alive 2:07 AM”
“Arrive at apartment 2:30 AM”
“Thumps heard by neighbor 2:40 AM”
“Two text messages 3:40 – 3:43 AM”
“Karena leaves apartment 4:25 AM”
“Faith found dead 11 AM”

They do not mention the calls between KR and BE; they do mention Faith’s text to him and misconstrue the meaning of his reply. Later in the show, they interview TM, who shows them a text from Faith at 3:52 AM (this is new information for us, both TM’s existence and the text).

What to make of this? Did ID get new information from CHPD, or other sources regarding the timeline? If so, it’s not shown. The only interaction with CHPD is their interview with Lt. Lehew at the beginning of the show. They aren’t shown talking to any Thrill employees or the downstairs neighbor. It’s certainly possible that they have a reason for these changes, but we aren’t told what they are.

In any event, the ID investigators conclude that the thumps heard at 2:40 were Faith being killed. There are problems with this conclusion:

1. The previous timeline established that the girls did not leave Thrill until 2:38 AM and didn’t arrive back until almost 3 AM.
2. The thumps were previously reported as happening simultaneously with their arrival.
3. Faith was killed in the bedroom, apparently while on the bed. Their interpretation is that Faith was killed within moments of her arrival back at the apartment. It is unlikely that she would have immediately climbed into bed and fallen asleep, especially if (as theorized on the show) she was quarrelling with KR.
4. Crime Watch Daily reported that police told them Faith was killed after 4:30 AM.

Given the previous timeline, and the fact that ID does not justify or explain their changes, I believe it more likely that the thumps were noises incidental to the girls’ arrival back at the apartment, given that both were previously reported to have occurred around 3 AM.

One final note:

I’d previous suspected that KR used Faith’s phone to send texts to BE on her own behalf. The times between the calls from KR’s phone and the texts from Faith’s were staggered: A text at 3:40, a call at 3:42, a text at 3:43, then calls at 3:52, 3:55, and 4:14. The TM text calls that idea into question. Note that the KR call to BE was at 3:52:19 and lasted until 3:52:58, and Faith’s text to TM was sent sometime during the same minute.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t quite prove Faith was alive then, as we don’t know the precise second the text was sent, and it’s possible to type up a text and not send it right away. But it is intriguing.

Also wondering if any voicemails were left on BE's VM. 3:52:19 to 3:52:58 seems like enough time that either the phone kept ringing and ringing or a voicemail was left.

 

[youlostone]

I really did not like this episode. It was so sensationalized. I'm glad people are still talking about the case, though.

 

[raiders444]

One thing brought up by surprisingly few of the live-Tweeters of the BH broadcast is the question of fingerprints… Police have what I presume is ‘touch DNA’ of the perp from the bag, the pen, the bottle, yet have never mentioned fingerprints (even from doorknobs or other objects)??? What gives? Are they all so smudged or wiped as to be unusable — even one single thumb print can sometimes break a case, and the nationwide database(s) for fingerprints would be much larger than the DNA database.

I asked sort of the same thing a little while back. I think the consensus was that even if LE was able to pull some prints, unless the perp had any prior arrests where LE took his/her prints, they wouldn't reveal anything. People don't get their prints taken too often I guess- government employees, people who are arrested or are suspects. Does anyone know if universities take prints from students nowadays? I went to college 20+ years ago and I don't believe they took mine then

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I’ve noticed LE talked a lot about how many people have been “swabbed” in this case...but does that mean the swabs have actually been tested against the original DNA sample?

 

[scaredtopost]

I asked sort of the same thing a little while back. I think the consensus was that even if LE was able to pull some prints, unless the perp had any prior arrests where LE took his/her prints, they wouldn't reveal anything. People don't get their prints taken too often I guess- government employees, people who are arrested or are suspects. Does anyone know if universities take prints from students nowadays? I went to college 20+ years ago and I don't believe they took mine then

UNCCH did not finger print students, as of 10 years ago. The only identification used was a photo ID issued by the school.
JMO MOO etc

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[Skigirl]

I’ve noticed LE talked a lot about how many people have been “swabbed” in this case...but does that mean the swabs have actually been tested against the original DNA sample?

That's a good question given that North Carolina has a rape kit backlog of over 15,000.

 

[CADwrest]

One thing brought up by surprisingly few of the live-Tweeters of the BH broadcast is the question of fingerprints… Police have what I presume is ‘touch DNA’ of the perp from the bag, the pen, the bottle, yet have never mentioned fingerprints (even from doorknobs or other objects)??? What gives? Are they all so smudged or wiped as to be unusable — even one single thumb print can sometimes break a case, and the nationwide database(s) for fingerprints would be much larger than the DNA database.

BBM

I don't think we know for sure what form the DNA is in on those. The only time I can remember that being brought up was the 5 year anniversary post on Gaspowrites, and his LE source wouldn't confirm that.

 

[CADwrest]

I asked sort of the same thing a little while back. I think the consensus was that even if LE was able to pull some prints, unless the perp had any prior arrests where LE took his/her prints, they wouldn't reveal anything. People don't get their prints taken too often I guess- government employees, people who are arrested or are suspects. Does anyone know if universities take prints from students nowadays? I went to college 20+ years ago and I don't believe they took mine then

There are certain private sector jobs and various permits/licenses that require fingerprints be taken as well.

 

[Webthrush]

That's a good question given that North Carolina has a rape kit backlog of over 15,000.

That's an interesting point, though I've always presumed that if police say 800+ samples have been "tested" for comparison than I assume it means the tests have actually been run. All of which makes me wonder how are things prioritized? -- rape kits would specifically involve vaginal swabs, but DNA in many, many cases (like Faith's) come from other sources.

 

[Lamima]

The DNA seems murky. And it's super important. On this new show, I thought it was said the was NO semen on or in her body. Upthread, someone said semen found on her body matched DNA on pen, note and bottle. I get a feeling the DNA is some sort of red herring.

 

[Webthrush]

The DNA seems murky. And it's super important. On this new show, I thought it was said the was NO semen on or in her body. Upthread, someone said semen found on her body matched DNA on pen, note and bottle. I get a feeling the DNA is some sort of red herring.

Boy, this case sure has been muddied with all the press/video/Web reports… over the last 5 years it's been variously reported or implied that semen was ON Faith, on her clothing, or on the bed linen — I don’t know for sure which is accurate or if all 3 are, but yes, semen was clearly taken from the crime scene (and matches DNA on the pen, bag, bottle) — NOT from inside Faith nor at the autopsy (as the BH episode correctly stated), but from the crime scene itself. This is one thing that I believe is NOT a red herring, and that the police have consistently put a lot of emphasis on.

 

[youlostone]

That's a good question given that North Carolina has a rape kit backlog of over 15,000.

The backlog of rape kits is extremely concerning. It’s not only an issue in NC either so one can just imagine what’s been missed. Wouldn’t be shocked that this person isn’t a first time offender.

 

[J.M. Bee]

Lamima - No, the show said that there was no semen inside of her, and no injuries to her vagina of any kind. But they noted the presence of male DNA "on her," and this has been stated by LE elsewhere as well.

 

[CADwrest]

OK, everyone, let’s talk about the text supposedly sent from Faith to TM. Here it is again, as one piece and with the misspellings fixed:

“I know you’re probably sleeping but I just wanted to let you know that I love you. Not a day goes by that you don’t cross my mind. I know it will be like this for the rest of my life because of what we’ve been through together. Besides that I still feel the same and still love you the same. Sorry for being in my feelings. But hey without feelings we wouldn’t have life…sometimes I feel like you are my life.”


So, on the show, TM thinks it’s from Faith. Roland disagrees because the “you’re” lacks an apostrophe in the original text and Faith was apparently particular about that. EC disagrees because Faith had confided in her that she wanted to get back together with Alex, her hometown high school boyfriend.

Now, reading and rereading this text, I don’t think it’s inconsistent with what Faith told EC. I think EC is reading it as a renewed declaration of romantic love, and it’s easy to get that out of it at first glance.

This is by nature very subjective, but to me, the tone comes across as more conciliatory, like something you send to a close friend (or an ex) you recently fought with or disappointed. It hits all the right notes:

1. I still love you
2. We’ve been through a lot together
3. You’ll always be important
4. “You cross my mind” as opposed to “you’re always on my mind”
5. I can’t imagine life without you

It sounds to me like a post break-up message, one of those messages young people send to try to take the sting out of the situation, but which actually sends horribly mixed signals to the recipient.

The ID episode showed that TM texted Faith around 6 PM, asking if they were still getting together, then nothing until she sends this just before 4 AM. I originally took that to mean she stood him up and didn’t respond. But we actually do know she left the library briefly that evening to go visit a male friend. I’m thinking it was TM that she visited, and that the meeting didn’t go especially well. Faith then went on with her evening, went out dancing to shake things off, and then sent the text to him a few hours later to soften the blow.

Also, read the text in conjunction with the one sent a few minutes earlier to BE:

“Hey b. Can you come over here please. Karena needs you more than you know. Please let her know you care.”

IMO, both these texts come from the same place. They’re from someone who is feeling emotional and is trying to look out for the needs of two of her friends, who she perceives to be hurting. I do think, if nothing else, they were written by the same person.

Thoughts?

 

[Lamima]

Could be both texts came from same person but NOT Faith. That's what I think.

The last part of the TM text says 'I feel like you are my life'. I wouldn't imagine sending that as a break up text. Maybe something like 'you WERE a big part of my life'. But this text says 'are' as in present tense and not end of the road. JMO.

 

[Webthrush]

Sort of a side-note, but in case anyone missed it, thought it interesting that this decades-old rapist-murderer case in California was finally solved using familial DNA in corporate databases:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article209913514.html

We’ve touched on this subject here before. As far as I know North Carolina has never used familial DNA to investigate a case, but also doesn’t outlaw it (as a few states do)… I can’t help but think the longer Faith’s murder goes unsolved the greater the pressure to seriously consider it.

 

[Simplestarz86]

Sort of a side-note, but in case anyone missed it, thought it interesting that this decades-old rapist-murderer case in California was finally solved using familial DNA in corporate databases:

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article209913514.html

We’ve touched on this subject here before. As far as I know North Carolina has never used familial DNA to investigate a case, but also doesn’t outlaw it (as a few states do)… I can’t help but think the longer Faith’s murder goes unsolved the greater the pressure to seriously consider it.

They desperately need to use it in Faith’s case! I’ve been saying that for awhile now. #J4F


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[youlostone]

I still believe Faith wrote the text to TM.

 

[J.M. Bee]

This case is maddening. For a time there after watching the ID show, I was beginning to think there was a stronger case against Karena. This belief was driven by a number of conclusions they reach in the show, including: one, that the 2:40am "thump" was the sound of the crime taking place; two, that Faith's subsequent FB and text-message activity could have been Karena; and three, that the note was written by a female.

However, I am now having doubts about some of the above (though I still lean towards a Karena-did-it theory). My principal doubt about the above has to do with the idea that the text messages ostensibly sent by Faith could have been "decoy" texts sent by Karena. I agree with CadWrest that they simply don't read that way. Even if Karena was calm enough and smart enough to send decoy texts after murdering her friend in a jealous rage, these are not the kinds of messages she would have sent. They are too complicated, too thoughtful, too long, too purposeful. If she was just sending texts to make it look like Faith was still alive, she would have just sent an "are you up?" to a couple of people. And she wouldn't have cared about correcting "aha" to "than". She would've been too frantic to care about such a thing. However, given that Faith cared about grammatical correctness in her text messages, this correction suggests that that text message (and the others) really was written by Faith.

Therefore, I think Faith was still alive as of 3:43am.

However, I also still suspect Karena was involved, and for a number of reasons.

 

[scadagirl28]

I think in a lot of these cases it what we don't know that could lead us in the right direction. What was accessed on FH Facebook? What was accessed on KR Facebook? What , if anything was found forensic wise in FH car? What other texts don't we know . Why on earth leave a note ? What did the note do that Faith's brutal murder wouldn't have already accomplished ?