NC NC - Lumberton, WhtFem 15-20, UP1882, in cornfield near asphalt plant, Sz 6 sandals, clothes, Jun'78

[carbuff]

You would have to contact her law enforcement officers to get an official full list of ruleouts (besides the ones just listed on NamUs - because god knows they aren’t the same list!) but here is what is listed on NamUs. You can see it yourself by logging in, shame they put it behind a login now.

View attachment 220987

(I promise if you click it it’s not a thumbnail lol)

Off topic, but if you look at the top of the columns, there's an arrow that lets you change the sort order. So you can click on last name to get an alphabetical list that's a little easier to find names on.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Could this be Elizabeth Ellen Palmer?? A bit older than the estimated range for the UID, but all else matches IMO... (seems like I’ve seen this possibility mentioned somewhere else ) I know Elizabeth’s family has recently submitted DNA but I’m not sure that it’s been processed or loaded to any database yet..

Elizabeth, UID, Elizabeth​

Missing Since: July 25, 1972 (1978)
Missing From: Roanoke, Virginia (North Carolina)
Age: 20 (25-26 at time of discovery) years old (15-20)
Height: 5’3” - 5’5” (5‘3”)
Weight: 110 - 120 pounds (110 pounds)
Hair: Brown (Brown)
Eyes: Blue (Unknown)

 

[carbuff]

Elizabeth looks like a very good possibility.

 

[MadMcGoo]

@carbuff I spent quite a while 'getting to know' Elizabeth and as much as I'd love to hear that she is alive, well, and raising a couple of grandkids, I'm aware of the likely reality. I wasn't looking for Jane Does who may be Elizabeth when I found this one, but I saw her face in the recon the second it appeared on my computer screen.

Elizabeth's facial bone structure is very unique. A few of her photos, but especially Jane Doe's image, you can see what I'm referring to based on the areas of highlight and shadow/contour. (That's the best I know how to explain it, lol)

One thing that's pretty irrefutable is that Elizabeth spent time in Mexico after leaving Salem. The clothing and shoes found with Jane Doe remind me so much of the vibrant, colorful clothing you'd see there. In the last photo taken of Elizabeth, she is even wearing jeans that are frayed at the bottom of the legs.

These two are on my list of potential matches to submit, I was waiting a little bit in order to give time for Elizabeth's family's DNA samples to be processed.

I appreciate your feedback!

 

[av.cooper517]

Hello. I'm new to this site but this case hits home for me since my extended family is from the area. In fact, I was born in Lumberton. I grew up believing I was Lumbee as I was told for generations we believed we were. However, the Lumbee phenotype is interesting and thought to be a combination of white, black, and native roots.We got our blood tested and it turns out we aren't native at all. This sort of discrepancy could possibly have her remains being listed as Caucasian while she could have been known as Native in her daily life. Many of my family's records have them listed as "native", and we now know they were mixed with a combination of European and African ancestry.

That's not to say there aren't natives in the area, just that there is a lot of ethnic mixing involved. Just thought I would put that out there as something to know, regarding Lumberton's population. I think ruling her as Native would be counter-productive, since she could have been known as this but her DNA could come back different. Also, the town is very small, with most people knowing everybody. If she was from the town, I feel that someone would have identified or claimed her long ago.

Moreover, Lumbee natives aren't recognized nationally as a tribe. Also, from what I understand, they do not have a definitive "native garb" or design for their clothing. While LJD's clothing could be a design based on other Native American imagery, I think it's important to note this fact. To me, it seems like a design that could be found in any gas station in the area, as many sell these types of designs on clothing.

I'm curious if anyone has proposed the possibility of Lumberton Jane Doe being Trenny Lynn Gibson? (The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)) She went missing during a field trip in the mountains in 1976. I don't know much more about her case other than what I discovered this morning. Her cheeks, jaw, and forehead are reminiscent of LJD to me. However, I don't know anything about her dental records.

-Her DOB was 8/17/60 -- meaning she would have been almost 18 if she is LJD.
-Hair: light brown, Eyes: Green.
-Height: 5'3"/Weight: 115lbs.

 

[carbuff]

Hm. She definitely has the same face/head shape, long and thin with the high forehead, pronounced chin, and definite nose.

 

[cadetcallie]

Hey there, this is really interesting info you’ve shared about the Lumbee tribe. I remember seeing a comment discussing this case (Reddit I think, but I can’t find it now), the commenter was from Lumberton and said that Lumbees tend to keep to themselves and may not have been eager to involve law enforcement if their family member went missing. Is this accurate, in your experience? I wonder if disconnection from the rest of the population could explain why she may never have been identified or reported missing. I agree, though, that she is more likely from somewhere else, and may not even be native.

Unfortunately, Trenny was ruled out as a match for LJD. You can see the exclusions on page 4, where user rats replied to me and included a screenshot. They’re also listed on NamUs. Thank you for the input! I’m always coming back to this case and looking for more info.

Hello. I'm new to this site but this case hits home for me since my extended family is from the area. In fact, I was born in Lumberton. I grew up believing I was Lumbee as I was told for generations we believed we were. However, the Lumbee phenotype is interesting and thought to be a combination of white, black, and native roots.We got our blood tested and it turns out we aren't native at all. This sort of discrepancy could possibly have her remains being listed as Caucasian while she could have been known as Native in her daily life. Many of my family's records have them listed as "native", and we now know they were mixed with a combination of European and African ancestry.

That's not to say there aren't natives in the area, just that there is a lot of ethnic mixing involved. Just thought I would put that out there as something to know, regarding Lumberton's population. I think ruling her as Native would be counter-productive, since she could have been known as this but her DNA could come back different. Also, the town is very small, with most people knowing everybody. If she was from the town, I feel that someone would have identified or claimed her long ago.

Moreover, Lumbee natives aren't recognized nationally as a tribe. Also, from what I understand, they do not have a definitive "native garb" or design for their clothing. While LJD's clothing could be a design based on other Native American imagery, I think it's important to note this fact. To me, it seems like a design that could be found in any gas station in the area, as many sell these types of designs on clothing.

I'm curious if anyone has proposed the possibility of Lumberton Jane Doe being Trenny Lynn Gibson? (The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)) She went missing during a field trip in the mountains in 1976. I don't know much more about her case other than what I discovered this morning. Her cheeks, jaw, and forehead are reminiscent of LJD to me. However, I don't know anything about her dental records.

-Her DOB was 8/17/60 -- meaning she would have been almost 18 if she is LJD.
-Hair: light brown, Eyes: Green.
-Height: 5'3"/Weight: 115lbs.

 

[theshadow45]

Lumberton Jane Doe has been unidentified for 42 years and one day today.

 

[av.cooper517]

I didn't grow up there but my family did nearby. Regarding cops, it's relative. It's true that some people like to solve things themselves if they can, but I don't think they keep to themselves so much they wouldn't report someone missing. Unless she ran away from a broken home. Unfortunately, in these cases its common for people to leave and no one to care. Crime can be really bad in nearby towns, such as my mother's hometown of Whiteville. Thanks for your input!

Hey there, this is really interesting info you’ve shared about the Lumbee tribe. I remember seeing a comment discussing this case (Reddit I think, but I can’t find it now), the commenter was from Lumberton and said that Lumbees tend to keep to themselves and may not have been eager to involve law enforcement if their family member went missing. Is this accurate, in your experience? I wonder if disconnection from the rest of the population could explain why she may never have been identified or reported missing. I agree, though, that she is more likely from somewhere else, and may not even be native.

Unfortunately, Trenny was ruled out as a match for LJD. You can see the exclusions on page 4, where user rats replied to me and included a screenshot. They’re also listed on NamUs. Thank you for the input! I’m always coming back to this case and looking for more info.

 

[cadetcallie]

I contacted the Medical Examiner's office in Raleigh this morning to request information about LJD, and they should be mailing all the documents they have to me soon. It seems like the NamUs list is exhaustive, but hopefully, I will know for sure once I hear back. I'll update here when I have more info.

 

[cadetcallie]

I contacted the Medical Examiner's office in Raleigh this morning to request information about LJD, and they should be mailing all the documents they have to me soon. It seems like the NamUs list is exhaustive, but hopefully, I will know for sure once I hear back. I'll update here when I have more info.

Here with an update!

I got the paperwork in the mail today. I did not get a list of rule-outs, which I may need to contact the county Sheriff's office for, but I have the official autopsy and dental reports. Based on the autopsy, I don't think toxicology was done on LJD due to the advanced state of decomposition, but her death is listed as "suspicious". The reports corroborate everything I've seen in this thread; both reports indicate she was between 17 and 20. As of June 27 '78, there were no matching dental records for missing persons, as we already know, but it is clear that she had recently and likely often seen a dentist and orthodontist. There has been no isotope testing for LJD, which I think would be a great next step in uncovering her identity.

There is one detail that I have not seen mentioned before. The missing bicuspids (#s 5, 12, 21, 28) are described in the autopsy report as having "long been extracted". The dental report does not make an estimate as to the length of time since the removal. In the dental examination, the teeth are reported to have "had serial extraction", indicating that the removal of these teeth was for orthodontic purposes such as braces or to relieve overcrowding. I think it's an interesting distinction to make in the autopsy and no similar comment was made about other teeth. Soft tissue in the mouth heals in about a month, which isn't what I would describe as a long window of time...

Because the removals left diastemi (space) between her top front teeth (#s 4 and 6, 11 and 13, 20 and 22, 27 and 29), that makes me think the removal was in order to create space for her incoming wisdom teeth and use braces to close the remaining gaps. If the autopsy accurately estimates the bicuspids as having been removed for a long time, perhaps LJD went missing in between having the teeth removed and her braces fitted, indicating she may have run away or been abducted and kept somewhere as I would think the braces would be put on soon after the removal. This makes a little more sense to me as opposed to her having the teeth removed, inexplicably delaying the braces allowing her gums to heal where the extractions occurred, and living her life normally for months-years before going missing. But that's just my speculation and I don't really have many other reasons to think this. I do feel that a girl who was receiving regular dental care and due to get braces soon would be reported missing by her parents.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this!

 

[Tony1902]

Slightly OT, but if it’s still the same, a section within the Bureau of Indian affairs is charged with identifying/recognizing First Nations/tribes. The Houma of Louisiana are still not federally recognized, despite having a common language, religious practices, cultural norms. One of the other problems cited very early on (1990s I believe) by geneticist Cavalli-Sforza was ‘genetic drift,’ the idea that small bands would mix with others either through trade, losses or warfare. Sorry I don’t know how to link.

 

[theshadow45]

Bumping.

 

[cadetcallie]

Here are my favorite possibilities right now for her. I can’t find any glaring physical discrepancies although the DLC for most them is about a year before Jane Doe was discovered, and some would have had to travel a long distance to Lumberton.. Thoughts are welcome

Angela Ramsey 1977 FL The Doe Network: Case File 49DFFL

Eva Ridall 1977 FL 3586DFFL - Eva Marie Ridall

Teresa Cupps 1977 OK The Doe Network: Case File 1318DFOK

Simone Ridinger 1977 MA The Doe Network: Case File 1255DFMA

Mary Frances Gregory 1978 CA/NV 350DFON - Mary Frances Gregory

Julie Soracco 1977 CA
Julie Elizabeth Soracco – The Charley Project

Dolores Stanton 1976 FL
Delores Jean Stanton – The Charley Project
She is older than the others, but I can’t get over the similarity in her clothing and Jane Doe’s!

Elizabeth Ellen Palmer 1972 VA
3979DFVA - Elizabeth Ellen Palmer
She’s also older and went missing 6 years prior, but check out the photos of her teeth.

 

[ClaireNC]

Don't know how I missed seeing this one before. I currently live in Lumberton, though I wasn't here 40 years ago. The area she was found is just very rural. There is nothing around there, so she wouldn't have just wandered into the area. IMO she is probably not local, but was dumped by someone traveling Rt 95. Someone not familiar with the area, who didn't care if she was found.

 

[cadetcallie]

Don't know how I missed seeing this one before. I currently live in Lumberton, though I wasn't here 40 years ago. The area she was found is just very rural. There is nothing around there, so she wouldn't have just wandered into the area. IMO she is probably not local, but was dumped by someone traveling Rt 95. Someone not familiar with the area, who didn't care if she was found.

Glad you’re here!! Interesting point, it doesn’t sound like the type of area one would go to hitchhike from. Do you know of any nearby truck stops? I got the same impression too, with the proximity to state roads and I95. I wonder if they knew that Lumberton had a reputation for being a dangerous area, and figured LE would be preoccupied or unfazed due to the rate of crime. Or they could have chosen a rural exit at random, clearly they didn’t try very hard to hide her.

 

[ClaireNC]

Glad you’re here!! Interesting point, it doesn’t sound like the type of area one would go to hitchhike from. Do you know of any nearby truck stops? I got the same impression too, with the proximity to state roads and I95. I wonder if they knew that Lumberton had a reputation for being a dangerous area, and figured LE would be preoccupied or unfazed due to the rate of crime. Or they could have chosen a rural exit at random, clearly they didn’t try very hard to hide her.

The biggest distinction for Lumberton is that it's the half-way point between New York and Florida. There are not many exits off of 95 in southern NC or northern SC that have accommodations. Lumberton has several hotels that are close to 95 and people often stop here for the night when driving up or down the east coast.

The exit she was found near is at the southern part of Lumberton, south of the hotels and eateries. It's about 15 miles north of the NC/SC border and the infamous "South of the Border". I assume it would be just a random rural exit, not something planned. Anyone that knows the area, could have easily placed her where she'd never be found.

 

[cadetcallie]

infamous "South of the Border"

<modsnip> her shirt looked like it could be from South of the Border. I think this would be a good lead to follow up on, but I wouldn’t even know where to start in finding people who may have seen her in 1978. Makes me wonder how much of an investigation there was into her case to begin with. I haven’t seen a brand listed for the shirt, so I’m curious if that would be typical of clothing in the 70’s or might indicate something hand-made.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

Here with an update!

I got the paperwork in the mail today. I did not get a list of rule-outs, which I may need to contact the county Sheriff's office for, but I have the official autopsy and dental reports. Based on the autopsy, I don't think toxicology was done on LJD due to the advanced state of decomposition, but her death is listed as "suspicious". The reports corroborate everything I've seen in this thread; both reports indicate she was between 17 and 20. As of June 27 '78, there were no matching dental records for missing persons, as we already know, but it is clear that she had recently and likely often seen a dentist and orthodontist. There has been no isotope testing for LJD, which I think would be a great next step in uncovering her identity.

There is one detail that I have not seen mentioned before. The missing bicuspids (#s 5, 12, 21, 28) are described in the autopsy report as having "long been extracted". The dental report does not make an estimate as to the length of time since the removal. In the dental examination, the teeth are reported to have "had serial extraction", indicating that the removal of these teeth was for orthodontic purposes such as braces or to relieve overcrowding. I think it's an interesting distinction to make in the autopsy and no similar comment was made about other teeth. Soft tissue in the mouth heals in about a month, which isn't what I would describe as a long window of time...

Because the removals left diastemi (space) between her top front teeth (#s 4 and 6, 11 and 13, 20 and 22, 27 and 29), that makes me think the removal was in order to create space for her incoming wisdom teeth and use braces to close the remaining gaps. If the autopsy accurately estimates the bicuspids as having been removed for a long time, perhaps LJD went missing in between having the teeth removed and her braces fitted, indicating she may have run away or been abducted and kept somewhere as I would think the braces would be put on soon after the removal. This makes a little more sense to me as opposed to her having the teeth removed, inexplicably delaying the braces allowing her gums to heal where the extractions occurred, and living her life normally for months-years before going missing. But that's just my speculation and I don't really have many other reasons to think this. I do feel that a girl who was receiving regular dental care and due to get braces soon would be reported missing by her parents.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this!

The extracted teeth is interesting! My friend has this in place of braces. She is from Kinston, NC. She told me that at the time it was a cheaper alternative to braces. She got it done in like the mid-late 90s. I learned more about it after reading about a Gacy or Corll victim having it and it played a role in his identification. Apparently a low percentage of the population has it. I will try to find that information again to share here.

 

[ClaireNC]

Thanks. <modsnip>

The location where she was found would be the old exit 14 off of Rt 95. It's just about 13.6 miles from the SC border, so about 15 miles from South of the Border. That's about 3 miles south of the town of Lumberton. Back then US 74 was mostly just a two-lane highway, not the freeway it is now in that area. Rt 74 connects the mountains/Tennessee with the NC coast.

I wish they gave the brand names on her clothing. I was a teenager in the 1970's and there is something odd about the clothes. I can't quite figure out what it is. The color of the jeans of strange, like they are not real denim but pants made to look like denim. The way they are cut on the bottom, doesn't look like they were frayed from being too long and scraping the ground, but were actually cut that way. (We used to wear jeans extra long and they would scrape the ground and get frayed in the back, so the back was shorter than the front of the jeans.) These look like they were simply cut straight across. They also look rather new, not like a well worn-in pair of jeans. The sandals are too plastic...they look more like resort wear/beach wear vs everyday shoes. The same with the shirt, it does look like it could have come from a souvenir shop
and the hood would have been a novelty. (not common on a sleeveless top.)

I'm too lazy to try to really decipher the dental records. Are you sure that she did not have braces at one time and they were already removed? Were her teeth straight or misaligned? Can you tell from the dental records? Braces were really expensive back then and most people could not afford them. Also people were not as obsessed about straight teeth, so the teens that got braces were only those with really badly misaligned teeth. Sometimes they simply removed teeth to make room for new ones coming in, without ever planning to put braces on.

As for any investigation at the time she was found...I'm sure there was none. This area was/is just very rural and they did not have the resources. Honestly, finding a dead body wasn't that unusual.