Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[UKGuy]

then see my post below..why would ST say that??

JMO8778,

For the same reason everyone else says it, from John Ramsey and Lou Smit onwards it helps explain her death, it gives it what seems a rational explanation, but it most probably is just staging?

Even Steve Thomas evokes this notion as he goes from accident to murder to give his narrative some structure. He like us cannot be certain it started with an accident, he cannot explain why JonBenet was not afforded medical assistance if it was only an accident to begin with?


.

 

[Toltec]

JMO8778,

For the same reason everyone else says it, from John Ramsey and Lou Smit onwards it helps explain her death, it gives it what seems a rational explanation, but it most probably is just staging?

Even Steve Thomas evokes this notion as he goes from accident to murder to give his narrative some structure. He like us cannot be certain it started with an accident, he cannot explain why JonBenet was not afforded medical assistance if it was only an accident to begin with?


.

Okay..I'll try another scenario. The accidental head blow....perhaps Patsy would call 911....BUT, since there was evidence of sexual molestation, could that be why Patsy did not call 911?

 

[UKGuy]

Okay..I'll try another scenario. The accidental head blow....perhaps Patsy would call 911....BUT, since there was evidence of sexual molestation, could that be why Patsy did not call 911?

Toltec,

Could be and that sounds more realistic, reaching this point I would ditch the notion of accident and focus more on murder.

.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

For the same reason everyone else says it, from John Ramsey and Lou Smit onwards it helps explain her death, it gives it what seems a rational explanation, but it most probably is just staging?

Ok UK,but...if that's the case,then how did she die after the paintbrush injury was inflicted?B/c I see it as head wound first,sexual staging injury next,and then her final breath is ended with the ligature.

Even Steve Thomas evokes this notion as he goes from accident to murder to give his narrative some structure. He like us cannot be certain it started with an accident, he cannot explain why JonBenet was not afforded medical assistance if it was only an accident to begin with?

true,none of us can.but he does believe it started with rage twds JB that ended in her death,whatever did happen.personally,if she wasn't meant to be killed,then flying into a rage and not caring what happens is murder to me...although I don't know what it's legally called..reckless disregard for life...manslaughter?

 

[UKGuy]

Ok UK,but...if that's the case,then how did she die after the paintbrush injury was inflicted?B/c I see it as head wound first,sexual staging injury next,and then her final breath is ended with the ligature.

true,none of us can.but he does believe it started with rage twds JB that ended in her death,whatever did happen.personally,if she wasn't meant to be killed,then flying into a rage and not caring what happens is murder to me...although I don't know what it's legally called..reckless disregard for life...manslaughter?

JMO8778,

Ok UK,but...if that's the case,then how did she die after the paintbrush injury was inflicted?B/c I see it as head wound first,sexual staging injury next,and then her final breath is ended with the ligature.

Maybe it was sexual injury 1st, followed by a manual strangulation, then a head injury?

true,none of us can.but he does believe it started with rage twds JB that ended in her death,whatever did happen.personally,if she wasn't meant to be killed,then flying into a rage and not caring what happens is murder to me...although I don't know what it's legally called..reckless disregard for life...manslaughter?

Thats a reasonable assumption but why must it be maternal rage, why not paternal rage?

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[Albert18]

Thats a reasonable assumption but why must it be maternal rage, why not paternal rage?

Because so much of the crime doesn't make sense if you insert John. What happened that night and the Ramsey behavior after that night only makes sense if you start with Patsy.

But I don't believe for a minute Patsy meant to harm her little girl. Sometimes things happen too fast in life.

 

[Ames]

Because so much of the crime doesn't make sense if you insert John. What happened that night and the Ramsey behavior after that night only makes sense if you start with Patsy.

But I don't believe for a minute Patsy meant to harm her little girl. Sometimes things happen too fast in life.

I agree with your last sentence....I don't believe that it was premeditated either. Patsy didn't mean to kill her daughter...I DO believe that she loved her, she just lost control.....parents do it every single day.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Maybe it was sexual injury 1st, followed by a manual strangulation, then a head injury?

why would they stage an injury while she was still conscious?? b/c I do think the bleeding wound was staged..it's possible she was sexually assaulted without injury that night,b/f anything else took place.
edited to add...you're saying she was manually strangled to unconsciouness,then hit upon the head with intent to kill?I don't rule that out,I really don't.But then Patsy's comments about having flashbacks of JB screaming...there was a struggle bet. the 2 of them,I do believe.Plus I think wolfmarsgrl(SP?) was correct in her assessment of Patsy's rings causing the abrasions on JB's neck..the marks fit so well,and it was thought the perp's knuckles caused the abrasions,but they wouldn't have if those rings had been in the way and made them instead of being made by knuckles.

Thats a reasonable assumption but why must it be maternal rage, why not paternal rage?

.

Patsy's behavior,her comments..too many to list for now..I don't rule JR out,I've said that bf..but my gut feeling tells me it's Pasty that inflicted the initial damage..plus I don't think we're seeing all the evidence,but ppl behind the scenes think she did it,and they must have good reason to beleive so.

 

[azwriter]

Okay..I'll try another scenario. The accidental head blow....perhaps Patsy would call 911....BUT, since there was evidence of sexual molestation, could that be why Patsy did not call 911?

Bingo Toltec! An excellent reason not to involve medical authorities. Besides the fact the Ramsey parents were arrogant people who could never chance letting anyone know their daughter had a skull fracture they inflicted. The head blow, IMO, wasn't an accident but a punishment lashed out in a moment of extreme stress and anger. Patsy could never admit to hitting her daughter that hard. Panic led to a cover-up. Because they beleived she was already dead or dying.
JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

Post-mortem swelling does occur in the abdomen first, due to bacterial activity in the gut. She was found well before that would have occurred. No, the ligature looks like it was tight enough to cause her flesh to fold over it in the front (re the autopsy pictures). But whether it would have been tight enough to kill her is debatable.

 

[UKGuy]

Because so much of the crime doesn't make sense if you insert John. What happened that night and the Ramsey behavior after that night only makes sense if you start with Patsy.

But I don't believe for a minute Patsy meant to harm her little girl. Sometimes things happen too fast in life.

Albert18,

Originally JonBenet's death did not make sense except in the context of an attempted intruder abduction and sexual assault, as you suggest it only makes sense if Patsy is inserted into the frame?


.

 

[UKGuy]

why would they stage an injury while she was still conscious?? b/c I do think the bleeding wound was staged..it's possible she was sexually assaulted without injury that night,b/f anything else took place.
edited to add...you're saying she was manually strangled to unconsciouness,then hit upon the head with intent to kill?I don't rule that out,I really don't.But then Patsy's comments about having flashbacks of JB screaming...there was a struggle bet. the 2 of them,I do believe.Plus I think wolfmarsgrl(SP?) was correct in her assessment of Patsy's rings causing the abrasions on JB's neck..the marks fit so well,and it was thought the perp's knuckles caused the abrasions,but they wouldn't have if those rings had been in the way and made them instead of being made by knuckles.

Patsy's behavior,her comments..too many to list for now..I don't rule JR out,I've said that bf..but my gut feeling tells me it's Pasty that inflicted the initial damage..plus I don't think we're seeing all the evidence,but ppl behind the scenes think she did it,and they must have good reason to beleive so.

JMO8778,

If it was Patsy as you suggest then she deliberately denied her daughter medical assistance, this is then followed up by either a strangling or a head blow whichever killed her eventually, thats murder plain and simple.

But what if that did not occur? What if JonBenet was first sexually assaulted, lets agree with Coroner Meyer, and suggest JonBenet was digitally penetrated, being engaged in sexual contact, prior to her death?

What if JonBenet cried out in distress, and the person assaulting her grabbed her by the throat to silence her, the consequent injury sequence leading to her death.

Alternately JonBenet complains loudly and the person assaulting realises JonBenet intends to talk, this person decides to silence JonBenet or use the attempt to intimidate JonBenet, this escalates into JonBenet lapsing into unconsciousness, followed concurrently by a head blow?

Regardless of who you think JonBenet's killer is, any theory should be consistent with the forensic evidence. Assuming that JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to her death, and when she was alive, offers an answer to the basic question, if her head injury was accidental, or unintentional, why no call to ER, or for medical assistance, bear in mind they could afford private medical care with few questions asked.

Some people contend that Patsy could never admit to hitting her daughter either as a punishment or in blind anger, so neglected calling 911 or ER, thats fine, so with JonBenet deceased, now she is known as the main suspect in a homicide case, the mother who killed her own daughter? Either way she will have known there was no escape from the media, the finger pointing, and publicity?

What if Patsy was chastising JonBenet for not indulging in sexual contact with John? We did not mean for this to happen!


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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

If it was Patsy as you suggest then she deliberately denied her daughter medical assistance, this is then followed up by either a strangling or a head blow whichever killed her eventually, thats murder plain and simple

I don't have any problem thinking that could be the case,I really don't.

But what if that did not occur? What if JonBenet was first sexually assaulted, lets agree with Coroner Meyer, and suggest JonBenet was digitally penetrated, being engaged in sexual contact, prior to her death?

As I've said bf..very possible.

What if JonBenet cried out in distress, and the person assaulting her grabbed her by the throat to silence her, the consequent injury sequence leading to her death.

why would she be choked to death just to get her to be quiet?why not put a hand over her mouth,and for that matter,why choke her at all if the intent is to kill..why not just keep her from breathing thru her mouth and nose,with a hand over both,until she is dead,that leaves no telltale marks on her neck,as such she had,right?

Alternately JonBenet complains loudly and the person assaulting realises JonBenet intends to talk, this person decides to silence JonBenet or use the attempt to intimidate JonBenet, this escalates into JonBenet lapsing into unconsciousness, followed concurrently by a head blow?

could be

Regardless of who you think JonBenet's killer is, any theory should be consistent with the forensic evidence. Assuming that JonBenet was sexually assaulted prior to her death, and when she was alive, offers an answer to the basic question, if her head injury was accidental, or unintentional, why no call to ER, or for medical assistance, bear in mind they could afford private medical care with few questions asked.

Dr Beuf goof was their only ally,it seems,since she was denied a specialist.And it's at night,ER is the only place she can go...it's not private and there are going to be plenty of q's asked.

Some people contend that Patsy could never admit to hitting her daughter either as a punishment or in blind anger, so neglected calling 911 or ER, thats fine, so with JonBenet deceased, now she is known as the main suspect in a homicide case, the mother who killed her own daughter? Either way she will have known there was no escape from the media, the finger pointing, and publicity?

Patsy also believed she had the power to appear innocent,a victim herself.

What if Patsy was chastising JonBenet for not indulging in sexual contact with John? We did not mean for this to happen!


.

I don't think that's personal enough to cause her to kill..I think it's the other way around.She became jealous of JB and did away with the competition,JR goes along with it bc it seems JB is going to talk and tell someone.They both had a vested interest in seeing her dead,so to speak.

 

[icedtea4me]

Bingo Toltec! An excellent reason not to involve medical authorities. Besides the fact the Ramsey parents were arrogant people who could never chance letting anyone know their daughter had a skull fracture they inflicted. The head blow, IMO, wasn't an accident but a punishment lashed out in a moment of extreme stress and anger.

"Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter." Patsy told John to do something, which he deviated/perverted. (She advised him to be rested or, in other words "John, you need to get to bed".) The result was a sudden punishment, the blow to the head.

Patsy could never admit to hitting her daughter that hard. Panic led to a cover-up. Because they beleived she was already dead or dying.
JMO

"Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded." John and Patsy couldn't tell anyone about what had happened, so JonBenet was strangled.


-Tea

 

[rashomon]

Because so much of the crime doesn't make sense if you insert John. What happened that night and the Ramsey behavior after that night only makes sense if you start with Patsy.

But I don't believe for a minute Patsy meant to harm her little girl. Sometimes things happen too fast in life.

I agree that it only makes sense if you start with Patsy. Not for the life of me can I imagine John confessing to Patsy about not only having molested JonBenet, but also having killed her and into the bargain asking Patsy to do most of the staging. And according to the circumstantial evidence, Patsy did do most of the staging (fibers in the garrote, writing the ransom note).
Like you said in another post, on all their TV appearances, Patsy looked like the defendant and John like her slick lawyer.

But what if JonBenet had in fact been the victim of chronic sexual abuse - who was her abuser? I would rule out Patsy, for in that case I dont think she would have taken JonBenet to the pediatrician so many times (several times because of vaginitis).
Suppose John had been JonBenet's abuser - does this necessarily imply that he killed her? It doesn't, for Patsy's initial rage attack on JonBenet may not have been connected to the sexual abuse. And when Patsy told John what had happened, it could have been he who suggested to Patsy that they stage it as a sex scrime, because he knew the police would find signs of sexual abuse in JonBenet's genital area. jmpo.

 

[Ames]

I agree that it only makes sense if you start with Patsy. Not for the life of me can I imagine John confessing to Patsy about not only having molested JonBenet, but also having killed her and into the bargain asking Patsy to do most of the staging. And according to the circumstantial evidence, Patsy did do most of the staging (fibers in the garrote, writing the ransom note).
Like you said in another post, on all their TV appearances, Patsy looked like the defendant and John like her slick lawyer.

But what if JonBenet had in fact been the victim of chronic sexual abuse - who was her abuser? I would rule out Patsy, for in that case I dont think she would have taken JonBenet to the pediatrician so many times (several times because of vaginitis).
Suppose John had been JonBenet's abuser - does this necessarily imply that he killed her? It doesn't, for Patsy's initial rage attack on JonBenet may not have been connected to the sexual abuse. And when Patsy told John what had happened, it could have been he who suggested to Patsy that they stage it as a sex scrime, because he knew the police would find signs of sexual abuse in JonBenet's genital area. jmpo.

I agree...why else would he have wanted to stage a sex crime?? A real "kidnapper/killer/intruder/small foreign faction" that hated John so much, wouldn't have taken the time to do all of that with the paintbrush insertion. They would have killed her, and that would have been it...imo. We all KNOW that there wasn't an intruder....so why else would they have staged a sex crime, what was the purpose ? Why not just a straight out murder....unless John wanted to cover something up.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree that it only makes sense if you start with Patsy. Not for the life of me can I imagine John confessing to Patsy about not only having molested JonBenet, but also having killed her and into the bargain asking Patsy to do most of the staging. And according to the circumstantial evidence, Patsy did do most of the staging (fibers in the garrote, writing the ransom note).
Like you said in another post, on all their TV appearances, Patsy looked like the defendant and John like her slick lawyer.

But what if JonBenet had in fact been the victim of chronic sexual abuse - who was her abuser? I would rule out Patsy, for in that case I dont think she would have taken JonBenet to the pediatrician so many times (several times because of vaginitis).
Suppose John had been JonBenet's abuser - does this necessarily imply that he killed her? It doesn't, for Patsy's initial rage attack on JonBenet may not have been connected to the sexual abuse. And when Patsy told John what had happened, it could have been he who suggested to Patsy that they stage it as a sex scrime, because he knew the police would find signs of sexual abuse in JonBenet's genital area. jmpo.

rashomon,

The inconsistency in your PDI is that John did not need to do anything about JonBenet's prior molestation, absolutely nothing, they could all blame it on an unknown abuser or her intruder killer. Why should John risk adding any further forensic evidence to JonBenet's body?

Why should John or Patsy deny JonBenet medical assistance, maybe because she had just been molested, why should anyone attempt either a genital cleanup or staged assault? To hide the prior sexual molestation.

JonBenet died because those that either allowed her to die or asphyxiated her, did not want her wakening up to tell strangers how she had been abused.

.

 

[Ames]

rashomon,

The inconsistency in your PDI is that John did not need to do anything about JonBenet's prior molestation, absolutely nothing, they could all blame it on an unknown abuser or her intruder killer. Why should John risk adding any further forensic evidence to JonBenet's body?

Why should John or Patsy deny JonBenet medical assistance, maybe because she had just been molested, why should anyone attempt either a genital cleanup or staged assault? To hide the prior sexual molestation.

JonBenet died because those that either allowed her to die or asphyxiated her, did not want her wakening up to tell strangers how she had been abused.

.

Well, why weren't they afraid that she would tell anyone earlier? She was six...and old enough to let anyone know...a school counselor, her best friend, her best friend's parents, etc. Were they afraid that if she woke up, after that severe head wound....that she would, all of the sudden, say..."My mama did this to me...she shoved me into the side of the tub, because I wet the bed. OH and by the way....my dad was sexually abusing me TOO!" Why wasn't John afraid that JB would tell her pediatrician, everytime Patsy took her to see him?? If he was afraid that she might tell someone, then he shouldn't have been doing it. If she hadn't of said anything to anyone earlier, why do you think that he would have thought, that she would have said something about it, in the hospital...after she regained consciousness from her head injury??

 

[Toltec]

Imagine JonBenet being molested and someone places something into her vagina. Her first instinct is to scream. How do you quickly silence her? Hit her over the head. Now the perpertrater is in trouble.

Now comes the staging....strangulation. The cord was placed around her neck but became furrowed due to the swelling from the brain injury. Patsy would not think to tie the cord that tight and did not so due to the absence of broken bones. She even went so far as to tie another ponytail on JonBenet to apply the cord.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've always felt that the scream (that neighbor Melody Stanton heard) provoked the head bash as a reaction to quickly silence her. Whoever hit her may not have intended to kill her that way, because they could just as easily have pulled the garrotte tight enough to really kill her. But she would have immediately lost consciousness after being bashed. The horrible sound of the cracking skull accompanied by possible convulsions and bleeding from the nose would have stunned whoever was there to see or hear it. Then they are at the point of no return.
I am one RDI who believes the bash and garrotting occurred at the same time. The petechia in the eyes and throat and the subdural skull bleeding indicate she was still alive at the time each happened. The amount of subdural blood indicated she lived for a little while, but I think whoever was with her then believed when she lost consciousness that she died at that point, and I think they panicked and planned the coverup. I lean toward thinking it happened in the basement, but not in the wineceller, but I am bothered by Linda Hoffman-Pugh's statement that the sheets on JBR's bed were not the ones she remembers putting on, though I don't recall when she changed them last. It IS possible JBR wet the bed Christmas EVE, and PR changed them herself, which fits well with the appearance of her bed in the crime scene photos. The bed really doesn't look slept in, and an unmade bed would not be out of keeping with PR's tidiness in the absence of the housekeeper that day. It also fits in with the white blanket being right there in the basement dryer. I think the Barbie nightgown may have been just stuck to the blanket. I don't even think they realized it was there. I think she had her pineapple snack right there in the dining area shortly after arriving home from the White's (maybe already changed into those long johns). She could even have BEEN asleep in the car.
The autopsy's indication of evidence of "chronic" vaginal injury as well as "acute" vaginal injury does not mean that there had to be a great deal of time between them. A "chronic" injury used in this sense means simply "previous". It does not have the same meaning as, let's say...a "chronic" cough.
It is possible the previous abuse occurred at the R party on the 23rd, maybe even for the first time. JBR: "Stop, why are you doing that?" Perp: "But you're so pretty". Later, in tears JBR:" I don't FEEL pretty".
Christmas night- more of the same for poor JBR. She threatens to tell, screams when penetrated (maybe by the broken paintbrush, maybe a latex gloved finger) . The latex glove, if it in fact was used, takes this out of the realm of something a 9/10 year old boy would do and moves it into the realm of something an adult would do to prevent DNA recovery. BUT my head swims when I try to really pin myself down to limiting this crime to the parents. The only other person(s) they would try so desperately to cover for would be their son(s). They tried to point a finger at every other person they knew. So I always end up back at square one. I think a R did it, but I couldn't say I feel sure which one. I DO think PR wrote the RN, that I feel sure of.