Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[UKGuy]

I've always felt that the scream (that neighbor Melody Stanton heard) provoked the head bash as a reaction to quickly silence her. Whoever hit her may not have intended to kill her that way, because they could just as easily have pulled the garrotte tight enough to really kill her. But she would have immediately lost consciousness after being bashed. The horrible sound of the cracking skull accompanied by possible convulsions and bleeding from the nose would have stunned whoever was there to see or hear it. Then they are at the point of no return.
I am one RDI who believes the bash and garrotting occurred at the same time. The petechia in the eyes and throat and the subdural skull bleeding indicate she was still alive at the time each happened. The amount of subdural blood indicated she lived for a little while, but I think whoever was with her then believed when she lost consciousness that she died at that point, and I think they panicked and planned the coverup. I lean toward thinking it happened in the basement, but not in the wineceller, but I am bothered by Linda Hoffman-Pugh's statement that the sheets on JBR's bed were not the ones she remembers putting on, though I don't recall when she changed them last. It IS possible JBR wet the bed Christmas EVE, and PR changed them herself, which fits well with the appearance of her bed in the crime scene photos. The bed really doesn't look slept in, and an unmade bed would not be out of keeping with PR's tidiness in the absence of the housekeeper that day. It also fits in with the white blanket being right there in the basement dryer. I think the Barbie nightgown may have been just stuck to the blanket. I don't even think they realized it was there. I think she had her pineapple snack right there in the dining area shortly after arriving home from the White's (maybe already changed into those long johns). She could even have BEEN asleep in the car.
The autopsy's indication of evidence of "chronic" vaginal injury as well as "acute" vaginal injury does not mean that there had to be a great deal of time between them. A "chronic" injury used in this sense means simply "previous". It does not have the same meaning as, let's say...a "chronic" cough.
It is possible the previous abuse occurred at the R party on the 23rd, maybe even for the first time. JBR: "Stop, why are you doing that?" Perp: "But you're so pretty". Later, in tears JBR:" I don't FEEL pretty".
Christmas night- more of the same for poor JBR. She threatens to tell, screams when penetrated (maybe by the broken paintbrush, maybe a latex gloved finger) . The latex glove, if it in fact was used, takes this out of the realm of something a 9/10 year old boy would do and moves it into the realm of something an adult would do to prevent DNA recovery. BUT my head swims when I try to really pin myself down to limiting this crime to the parents. The only other person(s) they would try so desperately to cover for would be their son(s). They tried to point a finger at every other person they knew. So I always end up back at square one. I think a R did it, but I couldn't say I feel sure which one. I DO think PR wrote the RN, that I feel sure of.

DeeDee249,

Thats a good synopsis of the RDI theory. The sheet changing may have occurred because JonBenet bled in bed, or they just decided to move her from there, or she was actually killed in that room?

I doubt a latex glove was involved, but its possible, the material discovered internally can be identified positively by its refractive index, so the police will know one way or the other, in fact this snippet of information is another example of minimal information being released via the autopsy report, since birefringent foreign material, is sufficiently vague, not to be able to identify its source:

Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular
congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The
smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the
vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with
underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red
blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is
birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate
is not seen.

Also note the reference here to epithelial erosion of JonBenet's vaginal wall/hymen, the term erosion I doubt simply applies to blunt force trauma, and likely refers to chronic erosion? But I guess that would be a question for Coroner Meyer to answer in court.

The term chronic in the context of this case probably refers to a month or more prior to her death, and acute means at or in the same time frame of her death.

Coroner Meyer makes this distinction himself verbally when her refers to JonBenet being penetrated digitally and enduring sexual contact prior to her death.

imo this is a case of sexual molestation, with JonBenet being murdered to ensure her permanent silence, not an accident staged to appear as a failed abduction come homicide.


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[DeeDee249]

UK Guy, points taken. I base my comment on the time lapse between "chronic" and "acute" vaginal injuries on Dr. Cyril Wecht's book, where he states that the previous unjuries could have occured relatively close to the acute injuries seen. I don't know enough about epithelial erosion to know if it could occur with one event. Or if there even is a way to tell when the erosion occurred and how many events would cause erosion of the kind seen. It's just vague at this point.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Coroner Meyer makes this distinction himself verbally when her refers to JonBenet being penetrated digitally and enduring sexual contact prior to her death.

imo this is a case of sexual molestation, with JonBenet being murdered to ensure her permanent silence, not an accident staged to appear as a failed abduction come homicide.


.

I don't recall seeing where Meyer actually said anything in his report about being penetrated digitally or otherwise, or enduring sexual contact. The report cited EVIDENCE of these things (the erosion, vaginal hyperemia, bruising, vascular congestion, and of course the foreign matter - birefringent material). Did he actually put in writing about the sexual contact/penetration?

 

[UKGuy]

I don't recall seeing where Meyer actually said anything in his report about being penetrated digitally or otherwise, or enduring sexual contact. The report cited EVIDENCE of these things (the erosion, vaginal hyperemia, bruising, vascular congestion, and of course the foreign matter - birefringent material). Did he actually put in writing about the sexual contact/penetration?

DeeDee249,

He may have done in his notes, but these remarks are attributed to him by Detective Linda Arndt, and witnessed by Detective Tom Trujillo.
Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Naturally the correctness of this could have been tested in court when Coroner Meyer would have been called to the stand. Many other MD's when presented with photographic closeups of JonBenet's damaged vaginal area, considered she had been chronically abused, resulting in an unnaturally enlarged hymen for a 6-year old girl.

Also as ever Coroner Meyer is obtuse in his language, note digital penetration is not the same as penetration by a foriegn object, the prior statement is specific, and he is the one conducting the autopsy, so its not as if its an opinion offered by a 3rd party. Also sexual contact is not the same as sexual assault, I reckon on the stand Coroner Meyer would offer the opinion that JonBenet had been sexually molested just prior to her death, and that the erosion and subsequent enlargement of her hymen indicated prior chronic sexual molestation?


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[rashomon]

rashomon,

The inconsistency in your PDI is that John did not need to do anything about JonBenet's prior molestation, absolutely nothing, they could all blame it on an unknown abuser or her intruder killer.

But if it was chronic abuse and the coroner recognized it as such, things again would have pointed to a family member as being the source of that abuse. Which is why I think the acute injury was inflicted - to muddy the waters in terms of the forensic analysis of the abuse. But I also think the parent trying to inflict wounds to her vagina just could not bring herself/himself to make more than the one wound. The stager of the scene may also have been shocked that the wound bled, realizing JB was still alive, and abruptly stopped. But there was no going back for them. They chose saving their hide over saving their child's life.

 

[Solace]

But if it was chronic abuse and the coroner recognized it as such, things again would have pointed to a family member as being the source of that abuse. Which is why I think the acute injury was inflicted - to muddy the waters in terms of the forensic analysis of the abuse. But I also think the parent trying to inflict wounds to her vagina just could not bring herself/himself to make more than the one wound. The stager of the scene may also have been shocked that the wound bled, realizing JB was still alive, and abruptly stopped. But there was no going back for them. They chose saving their hide over saving their child's life.

In all of this, Patsy's personality should not be dismissed. She is a very strong woman - willful - who would not chastise her six year old daughter for not sexually gratifying her husband, imo. Also, Steve Thomas does address Patsy's not calling for help - he says she basically would have been afraid, ashamed, embarrassed, whatever - but she knew that JB was in grave danger of dying. There is a reason for two ponytails imo and that is to cover the head wound, which to the touch would be very apparent. They were there to hold the skull together.

 

[Ames]

In all of this, Patsy's personality should not be dismissed. She is a very strong woman - willful - who would not chastise her six year old daughter for not sexually gratifying her husband, imo. Also, Steve Thomas does address Patsy's not calling for help - he says she basically would have been afraid, ashamed, embarrassed, whatever - but she knew that JB was in grave danger of dying. There is a reason for two ponytails imo and that is to cover the head wound, which to the touch would be very apparent. They were there to hold the skull together.

You just gave me chills, Solace...with that last sentence. I had never thought of that.

 

[Solace]

You just gave me chills, Solace...with that last sentence. I had never thought of that.

Hi Ames,

Well, PM/Perfect Town comes on this weekend so I tune it for part of it - and I am looking at her hair and thinking why would her hair be like that - and I said to myself - to hold her head in place. Some might argue that the skin is doing that already. HOWEVER, if I had thrown my child and heard that loud crack, I would have went to check it out and we know she had to feel the crack - had to. I can see her putting these to pony tails in one at the top and one at the back to hold it together and possibly hoping this will work or just to hold it together.

 

[UKGuy]

But if it was chronic abuse and the coroner recognized it as such, things again would have pointed to a family member as being the source of that abuse. Which is why I think the acute injury was inflicted - to muddy the waters in terms of the forensic analysis of the abuse. But I also think the parent trying to inflict wounds to her vagina just could not bring herself/himself to make more than the one wound. The stager of the scene may also have been shocked that the wound bled, realizing JB was still alive, and abruptly stopped. But there was no going back for them. They chose saving their hide over saving their child's life.

rashomon,

Yes I agree it points to a family member being responsible for JonBenet's abuse, and the acute injury may have been inflicted for the reasons you suggest, or simply, in the stager's eyes, to add some realism to the crime-scene?

Unless the person abusing JonBenet had left forensic evidence on JonBenet's body that night, there is no requirement for this person to muddy the waters, in terms of forensic evidence, there is really only one candidate for this role. So why highlight something you wish to dismiss later as the work of an unknown intruder, or anonymous abuser?

Controversially I would never rule Patsy out here, and would give John a pass if evidence of her involvement went beyond either falicitation or staging..

The steps taken in the case by some of those involved, never mind the brutal slaying of JonBenet to ensure her enduring silence, suggest strongly some people have a dark secret which they want to remain so!

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[rashomon]

rashomon,

Yes I agree it points to a family member being responsible for JonBenet's abuse, and the acute injury may have been inflicted for the reasons you suggest, or simply, in the stager's eyes, to add some realism to the crime-scene?

Unless the person abusing JonBenet had left forensic evidence on JonBenet's body that night, there is no requirement for this person to muddy the waters, in terms of forensic evidence, there is really only one candidate for this role. So why highlight something you wish to dismiss later as the work of an unknown intruder, or anonymous abuser?

Controversially I would never rule Patsy out here, and would give John a pass if evidence of her involvement went beyond either falicitation or staging..

The steps taken in the case by some of those involved, never mind the brutal slaying of JonBenet to ensure her enduring silence, suggest strongly some people have a dark secret which they want to remain so!

.

But wouldn't the fact that Patsy took Jon Benet to the doctor so often (also because of vaginitis) speak against her having been JB's chronic sexual abuser? Wouldn't taking JonBenet to the doctor because of vaginitis have been the last thing she would have done if she herself had been her sexual abuser?

 

[JMO8778]

I think Dr Beuf knew something was amiss and chose to hide it.JB obv. needed to see a specialist for her soiling issues, but she was denied that.Question is,was it for the same reason they chose not to call 911 that night?
Dr Beuf was unprofessional and was obv. on their side when he sided with JR and told LE that Patsy was in no condition to go anywhere.HE SHOULD HAVE encouraged her to go to down to LE HQ and help as best she could, instead of encouraging her to whine.Can't walk?? ..put her in a wheelchair.
I think he knew something was going on,(he hid her med records and refused to talk to LE),as he should have *empowered* her by encouraging to go and help..when she got back, she would have felt better knowing that she did what she could to help..not so much a victim anymore,as I'm sure Dr B knew.But he didn't go that route.That goes against what he was taught and he knew it.

 

[rashomon]

In all of this, Patsy's personality should not be dismissed. She is a very strong woman - willful - who would not chastise her six year old daughter for not sexually gratifying her husband, imo. Also, Steve Thomas does address Patsy's not calling for help - he says she basically would have been afraid, ashamed, embarrassed, whatever - but she knew that JB was in grave danger of dying. There is a reason for two ponytails imo and that is to cover the head wound, which to the touch would be very apparent. They were there to hold the skull together.

[Ames]
You just gave me chills, Solace...with that last sentence. I had never thought of that.

OMG, Solace - that could indeed be the reason why the ponytails were so strangely tied - not only to camouflage the skull indentation but also to hold the skull together. Makes me shudder too. Just imagine the shock Patsy must have got when she touched JonBenet's head and felt that a piece of skull had been punched out ...! Imo at this moment it was clear to Patsy even as a medical layperson that JonBenet would not survive this injury.

 

[UKGuy]

But wouldn't the fact that Patsy took Jon Benet to the doctor so often (also because of vaginitis) speak against her having been JB's chronic sexual abuser? Wouldn't taking JonBenet to the doctor because of vaginitis have been the last thing she would have done if she herself had been her sexual abuser?

rashomon,

It depends on the then current nature of her abuse. Without the medical records its impossible to say yes or no.

We do not know if Patsy took JonBenet to Dr Beuf with prediagnosed complaints that he would simply medicate for, since Dr Beuf is on record as having stated he never gave JonBenet any form of an internal examination.

So Patsy may have actually felt safe and comfortable with Dr Beuf's medical proceures, after all she was paying his fees!

If JonBenet's vaginitis was a consequence of her sexual abuse then on the surface it does appear risky for Patsy to take her to Dr Beuf?


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[Solace]

OMG, Solace - that could indeed be the reason why the ponytails were so strangely tied - not only to camouflage the skull indentation but also to hold the skull together. Makes me shudder too. Just imagine the shock Patsy must have got when she touched JonBenet's head and felt that a piece of skull had been punched out ...! Imo at this moment it was clear to Patsy even as a medical layperson that JonBenet would not survive this injury.

I think so Rashomon, I was watching the movie PM/PT and on comes JB with the two pony tails and as I am pulling my hair back, I said to my son why does she have two pony tails and I can feel my scalp being pulled as I pull my hair and I said that is why - to hold her scalp together.

I know she had to run to her as far as she had to go and felt that fissure, no other word for it. It was huge and she was terrified, because those are the most uncomfortable pony tails I have ever seen. They look bizarre.

 

[Solace]

rashomon,

It depends on the then current nature of her abuse. Without the medical records its impossible to say yes or no.

We do not know if Patsy took JonBenet to Dr Beuf with prediagnosed complaints that he would simply medicate for, since Dr Beuf is on record as having stated he never gave JonBenet any form of an internal examination.

So Patsy may have actually felt safe and comfortable with Dr Beuf's medical proceures, after all she was paying his fees!

If JonBenet's vaginitis was a consequence of her sexual abuse then on the surface it does appear risky for Patsy to take her to Dr Beuf?


.

Rash,

How many six year olds do you know that get internal examinations. I bet not too many. Becuase it is unnecessary unless of course they are children who are suspected of suffering from child abuse or if they have cancer or some other disease. If there is ongoing sexual abuse in this home and Patsy is aware of it, she is NOT going to take JonBenet to the doctors some 33 times in 3 years. Because how would she know for one thing if the doctor did not start to suspect somethiing. He could very well suspect that. And I do believe that I read that she had mentioned to the doctor the bed wetting. She is asked about it in the interviews by either Steve Thomas or Haney, but I believe it is Thomas.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames,

Well, PM/Perfect Town comes on this weekend so I tune it for part of it - and I am looking at her hair and thinking why would her hair be like that - and I said to myself - to hold her head in place. Some might argue that the skin is doing that already. HOWEVER, if I had thrown my child and heard that loud crack, I would have went to check it out and we know she had to feel the crack - had to. I can see her putting these to pony tails in one at the top and one at the back to hold it together and possibly hoping this will work or just to hold it together.

Well, my husband had an accident, where the tendons that attach his upper arm to the shoulder was ripped completely in half, and the skin didn't hold his arm in place. You could SEE where his upper arm was literally hanging....one arm was longer than the other because of it, and there was a visible deep indention...where the arm should have been connected to the shoulder, but wasn't. He had to have surgery to attach the tendons back.....SOOOO....skin is not necessarily going to hold a bone in place...that has been DISPLACED. I am SURE that Patsy felt that crack...and that displaced portion of her skull. I believe that you hit the nail on the head, with the reason for the two ponytails.

 

[Solace]

Well, my husband had an accident, where the tendons that attach his upper arm to the shoulder was ripped completely in half, and the skin didn't hold his arm in place. You could SEE where his upper arm was literally hanging....one arm was longer than the other because of it, and there was a visible deep indention...where the arm should have been connected to the shoulder, but wasn't. He had to have surgery to attach the tendons back.....SOOOO....skin is not necessarily going to hold a bone in place...that has been DISPLACED. I am SURE that Patsy felt that crack...and that displaced portion of her skull. I believe that you hit the nail on the head, with the reason for the two ponytails.

Hi AMES,


I agree that some will argue the skin would hold it together, but I think Patsy could literally feel it in half and that sound was loud. I truly believe she was putting it back together - either so John didn't see it right away or just put it back together - it is truly an insane night.


I will post something later regarding the red heart on JB's hand which Patsy tells Detective Haney she remembers seeing that morning (December 26th) which she could not have seen because JB was still missing. She recants the next day saying she must have read it in the autopsy report. But the interesting thing about her saying she saw it is that at the end of her reply and the questioning re same goes on for a page or so, she says "that was a pretty good little heart - you know. Really well drawn".

This is one time where she is most defintely caught lying about seeing it. I thought well it is possible that she could convince someone she is remembering - until I read the last line - where she absolutely states how well the heart was drawn.

My point is this, she says she saw it that morning - so I can only glean from this that in the very early morning hours and I do not mean 1:00 a.m. - because that is night to most people - I think later on - she was with JonBenet.

These two are out there.

 

[JMO8778]

Hi AMES,


I agree that some will argue the skin would hold it together, but I think Patsy could literally feel it in half and that sound was loud. I truly believe she was putting it back together - either so John didn't see it right away or just put it back together - it is truly an insane night.


I will post something later regarding the red heart on JB's hand which Patsy tells Detective Haney she remembers seeing that morning (December 26th) which she could not have seen because JB was still missing. She recants the next day saying she must have read it in the autopsy report. But the interesting thing about her saying she saw it is that at the end of her reply and the questioning re same goes on for a page or so, she says "that was a pretty good little heart - you know. Really well drawn".

This is one time where she is most defintely caught lying about seeing it. I thought well it is possible that she could convince someone she is remembering - until I read the last line - where she absolutely states how well the heart was drawn.

My point is this, she says she saw it that morning - so I can only glean from this that in the very early morning hours and I do not mean 1:00 a.m. - because that is night to most people - I think later on - she was with JonBenet.

These two are out there.

I DOI,JR even says they don't know which hand the heart is on...oh please...who do they think they're kidding?

 

[Ames]

Hi AMES,


I agree that some will argue the skin would hold it together, but I think Patsy could literally feel it in half and that sound was loud. I truly believe she was putting it back together - either so John didn't see it right away or just put it back together - it is truly an insane night.


I will post something later regarding the red heart on JB's hand which Patsy tells Detective Haney she remembers seeing that morning (December 26th) which she could not have seen because JB was still missing. She recants the next day saying she must have read it in the autopsy report. But the interesting thing about her saying she saw it is that at the end of her reply and the questioning re same goes on for a page or so, she says "that was a pretty good little heart - you know. Really well drawn".

This is one time where she is most defintely caught lying about seeing it. I thought well it is possible that she could convince someone she is remembering - until I read the last line - where she absolutely states how well the heart was drawn.

My point is this, she says she saw it that morning - so I can only glean from this that in the very early morning hours and I do not mean 1:00 a.m. - because that is night to most people - I think later on - she was with JonBenet.

These two are out there.

Hi Solace,
I have read that before, and I believe, if I am not mistaken, that I posted it either on the FFJ board, or here. I can't remember..but, it was under Patsy's interview. She remembers seeing it one day, even commenting on how well it was drawn....but, then later on, she got to thinking about that..and changed her story. She said that she never discussed her interviews with John, or John with her...but, I believe it was Jayelles that posted a portion of JOHN'S interview where he said that they DID discuss things. So, I believe that she probably told John later that day, about the interview, and what they talked about and he told her to change her story about the heart, because it proved that she DID see JB that morning.

 

[Ames]

I DOI,JR even says they don't know which hand the heart is on...oh please...who do they think they're kidding?

Oh good GRIEF!!!