Ned's Final Theory-Lou Smit are you still reading here?

[UKGuy]

http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet08.gif

Page 8 of the autopsy report says there is no hemoraging of the strap muscles and no damage to the hyoid. Also no abnormal color to the tounge.

We do see bruising to the skin in the autopsy photos.

Chrishope,

The above is not inconsistent with her being manually strangled. Coroner Meyer's autopsy results more or less suggest that her ligature strangulation was not particularly violent, since the structures mentioned by Coroner Meyer e.g. Thyroid, cricoid cartilage, hyoid, strap musculature, tongue show no hemorrahage or injury.

Whereas the lower neck is replete with bruising, likely resulting from a manual strangulation.

Coroner Meyer's autopsy report need not be the last word, also his conclusions may be deliberately opaque, to account for the evident staging. Note he offers no opinion on this! In the event of a court case he can then expand upon his written report.


.

 

[Charlie]

This is true, but they checked the train room too, if I recall correctly, so they had to have gone through the door. (Wasn't it at this time that JR told FW he'd broken the window when locked out months before?) The door to the train room and the door to the boiler room - which is in front of the wine cellar- are right next to each other. So, they'd have to have at least seen the chair. It still remains that FW/French don't report moving the chair when they searched that morning, then JR goes down there in the morning, then JR and FW go down again at 1, and neither reports moving the chair, or even seeing it. So, apparently, it isn't in the way in the morning, but it's there -supposedly- in some crime scene photos.

This is exactly what i dont understand, that if the crime scene photos were taken after 1pm once the body had been found then the chair after 1pm was in its blocked position which would me either John or fleet moved it infront of the train room door when they went down at 1pm. Yet fleet doesnt recall this. and john said he did this at 7-9am not later at 1. this would mean John moved the chair twice and replaced it twice, once in the morning and once at 1pm when he was in fleets company. If only we had access to all the case information, we could clear this up.

Timeline
1. Fleet and french go into basement before 7am and see no blocked chair
2. John goes into basement between 7-9am and sees blocked chair. moves it and then replaces it infront of train room door
3. Fleet and John goes into basement together at 1pm, both eneter the train room therefore someone would have had to move to chair, and then replaced it again upon exiting, again fleet doesnt recall a chair
4. crime scene photos taken after 1pm confirms that someone fleet or john moved the chair in front of the train room door in point 4.
5. am so confused it doesnt make sense

 

[Chrishope]

Some info on strangulation and damage to the hyoid. This tends to support what UKGuy said in his last post.

http://www.hbo.com/autopsy/baden/qa_10.html

Scroll not quite half way and read both articles - they're short.

 

[Chrishope]

This is exactly what i dont understand, that if the crime scene photos were taken after 1pm once the body had been found then the chair after 1pm was in its blocked position which would me either John or fleet moved it infront of the train room door when they went down at 1pm. Yet fleet doesnt recall this. and john said he did this at 7-9am not later at 1. this would mean John moved the chair twice and replaced it twice, once in the morning and once at 1pm when he was in fleets company. If only we had access to all the case information, we could clear this up.

Timeline
1. Fleet and french go into basement before 7am and see no blocked chair
2. John goes into basement between 7-9am and sees blocked chair. moves it and then replaces it infront of train room door
3. Fleet and John goes into basement together at 1pm, both eneter the train room therefore someone would have had to move to chair, and then replaced it again upon exiting, again fleet doesnt recall a chair
4. crime scene photos taken after 1pm confirms that someone fleet or john moved the chair in front of the train room door in point 4.
5. am so confused it doesnt make sense

It probably never will make sense, like so much about this case. If there are in fact crime scene photos of the chair, I'd like to see if the chair is blocking the door, or just off to the side.

It seems pretty unlikely to me that either JR or FW bothered with putting the chair back in place at any time, if it was in fact blocking the door. Who knows.

 

[Charlie]

It probably never will make sense, like so much about this case. If there are in fact crime scene photos of the chair, I'd like to see if the chair is blocking the door, or just off to the side.

It seems pretty unlikely to me that either JR or FW bothered with putting the chair back in place at any time, if it was in fact blocking the door. Who knows.

I agree, but if there is a crime scene photo of this as NE book suggests then that would prove the chair was replaced by fleet or john at 1pm. I wonder how reliable the NE book is.

 

[4sure]

Please answer my questions about FW.

Well since you said please.

If you want to believe FW killed JB, and lied about not seeing her body in the wine cellar, that's fine, but then you still need to answer my earlier questions;.

I don't nessacerily believe that. Im just leaving the door open. -

why would FW leave a fake ransom note? -.

To explain where JBR was and hope that no one would search the house because of it. Maybe to spare the feelings of the R's from finding the body. Some would say Patsy wrote the note as sort of a subconscious confession. I suppose the same could be said for FW. SuperDave would say in a panic some people do strange things and I suppose the same could be said for FW. Im guessing he counts as some people.

Why would FW engage in staging of the scene? All he had to do is kill her and go home. .

He didn't come to kill her, he came to "play" with her. Now what you see is not staging, its real twisted pedophila. Maybe she saw him (maybe he had a mask that came off or a Santa beard that fell from his face just long enough)so he felt like he had to do something about that.

Another question, why would FW, even if he's the killer, hesitate to find JB's body in the wine cellar ? He was called to the house by PR. He was asked, as a family friend to help out in a time of crisis. There would have been nothing in the least bit suspicious about him finding the body. ;.

You are right, but he could be in a state of panic and maybe even denial. Any of the reasons that apply to the R's could apply to him.

That's the thing about IDIs, they never try to think through their intruder theories and ask why the intruder would do these things. As for moving the body, that would also be a very logical explanation for FW not having seen it - wouldn't it? I'm not saying the body was moved, I'm just saying that if it wasn't in the wine room at 6:30, that would account for FW not seeing it. No one is going out of their way to make up a story - it simply fits with what happened. FW didn't see the body. JR was down there sometime that morning, after FW and Officer French. It does make sense. .

Then why would JR not just have "found" the body that time. Why did he feel the need to wait till 1 pm. If the body was so was well hidden that no one could find it why move it in the first place? Whats his advantage?

 

[4sure]

But the point is this:
Suppose it was pitch-black in the windowless wine cellar (and according to Steve Thomas' later experiments, it indeed was!), and therefore Fleet White hadn't seen anything,
then why on earth did John "see" JB's body at once when looking in the wine cellar before he even put the lights on? That's what is so suspicious about John's behavior.
In terms of John moving the body later in the day: I don't think John would have dared to that with the police already in the house. Far too risky.

Didn't I just cover this whole FW gets excuses and JR gets crucified thing? How do I know FW didn't move the body when he was in the basement?

 

[Chrishope]

Didn't I just cover this whole FW gets excuses and JR gets crucified thing? How do I know FW didn't move the body when he was in the basement?

You covered it in your own mind, but not in any realistic way.

First, yes, FW could have moved the body, though he'd have had little reason after that to come back upstairs and say he searched in the room where she'd later be found, but hadn't seen her.

Second, FW isn't getting an excuse. It's an explanation, and a very reasonable one. When people don't see things, one explanation is that it was too dark. That makes sense, doesn't it? How does that constitute a pass? It could be FW is lying about not seeing her. That's also a possible explanation.

 

[Chrishope]

Well since you said please.

(Why would FW leave a fake RN?)


> To explain where JBR was and hope that no one would search the house because of it. ....

Why would it be necessary to "explain" where JB was? And what is the likelihood of a family not searching their house when their daughter is missing?

> Maybe to spare the feelings of the R's from finding the body. ...

I don't see how that spares their feelings.

> Some would say Patsy wrote the note as sort of a subconscious confession. I suppose the same could be said for FW. SuperDave would say in a panic some people do strange things and I suppose the same could be said for FW. Im guessing he counts as some people. He didn't come to kill her, he came to "play" with her. Now what you see is not staging, its real twisted pedophila. Maybe she saw him (maybe he had a mask that came off or a Santa beard that fell from his face just long enough)so he felt like he had to do something about that.

OK, maybe he came to play with her, and it got out of hand. But what we're seeing is staging, according to BPD, and the FBI.

(Why would FW hesitate to find her, having been called to the house by PR?)

You are right, but he could be in a state of panic and maybe even denial. Any of the reasons that apply to the R's could apply to him. ...

If he was in a state of panic, why even go in the basement. He'd have been better off searching the other floors if he knew JB was dead in the basement. It wasn't his house, and there was nothing connecting him to the death. Where's the panic come in?


Then why would JR not just have "found" the body that time. Why did he feel the need to wait till 1 pm. If the body was so was well hidden that no one could find it why move it in the first place? Whats his advantage?

I never claimed he moved it, just that it's another explanation for why FW didn't see it. I said in another post I don't think the body was moved because Officer French had already searched everywhere but the wine room.

How would it look to find the body, alone, between 7-9 when no one else was down there, and the basement had already been searched by police? (I assume he knew police had been down there, but perhaps not) He couldn't have found it any earlier than 1 when LA asked him and FW to search the house.

 

[BBB167893]

Some would say Patsy wrote the note as sort of a subconscious confession. I suppose the same could be said for FW. SuperDave would say in a panic some people do strange things and I suppose the same could be said for FW. Im guessing he counts as some people.

At last! Someone appreciates me!

 

[rashomon]

Didn't I just cover this whole FW gets excuses and JR gets crucified thing? How do I know FW didn't move the body when he was in the basement?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that FW climbed into the Ramsey basement at night, gave JB a head bash, molested and strangled her and then wrote the fake ransom note mimicking Patsy's handwriting to pefection??
In case you have missed it: unlike the Ramseys, the Whites have been cleared as suspects. But you are trying to somehow lump FW together with John Ramsey.

Another thing you might have missed: the Whites publicly demanded that the case be handed over to an independent prosecutor. Would you demand a prosecutor who knows what he is doing if you were guilty? I certainly wouldn't . This would be the last thing I'd ask for.
And what, as opposed to the Whites, have the Ramseys ever done in that respect? You should ask yourself this question too, and also thoroughly read the open letter by the Whites.

 

[JMO8778]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that FW climbed into the Ramsey basement at night, gave JB a head bash, molested and strangled her and then wrote the fake ransom note mimicking Patsy's handwriting to pefection??
In case you have missed it: unlike the Ramseys, the Whites have been cleared as suspects. But you are trying to somehow lump FW together with John Ramsey.

Another thing you might have missed: the Whites publicly demanded that the case be handed over to an independent prosecutor. Would you demand a prosecutor who knows what he is doing if you were guilty? I certainly wouldn't . This would be the last thing I'd ask for.
And what, as opposed to the Whites, have the Ramseys ever done in that respect? You should ask yourself this question too, and also thoroughly read the open letter by the Whites.

well-said :clap::clap::clap:

 

[4sure]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that FW climbed into the Ramsey basement at night, gave JB a head bash, molested and strangled her and then wrote the fake ransom note mimicking Patsy's handwriting to pefection??.

Its no stranger than anyother possible explanation. Patsy handwriting is in no way "mimicked to perfection". Is there so little real evidence against the R's that you have to make up garbage like that. And don't bother sending any quotes from experts saying that is was because I'll just send you quotes from experts saying that it's not which will just take up a lot of needless posting space.

In case you have missed it: unlike the Ramseys, the Whites have been cleared as suspects. But you are trying to somehow lump FW together with John Ramsey..

So what. No one has been convicted of this crime therefore to me everyone is still suspect.

Another thing you might have missed: the Whites publicly demanded that the case be handed over to an independent prosecutor. Would you demand a prosecutor who knows what he is doing if you were guilty? I certainly wouldn't . This would be the last thing I'd ask for. ..

Yes because it makes me look good and on the small chance it happens I have no intention of speaking to that prosecutor or obeying his subpoenas either.

 

[4sure]

How would it look to find the body, alone, between 7-9 when no one else was down there, and the basement had already been searched by police? (I assume he knew police had been down there, but perhaps not) He couldn't have found it any earlier than 1 when LA asked him and FW to search the house.

Why find it then?

 

[rashomon]

Its no stranger than anyother possible explanation. Patsy handwriting is in no way "mimicked to perfection". Is there so little real evidence against the R's that you have to make up garbage like that. And don't bother sending any quotes from experts saying that is was because I'll just send you quotes from experts saying that it's not which will just take up a lot of needless posting space. So what. No one has been convicted of this crime therefore to me everyone is still suspect.

Of course your theory is far stranger than the more obvious explanation.
Open your eyes to these hard facts: a child has died a violent death in her own home, with both parents being present in the home while the child was killed. Hello?

But you prefer to look for a mythical intruder instead, claiming that one theory is just as plausible as another. It is not. While many things are possible, some things are less possible, dont you think so?

Pasty Ramsey was among the few people who could not be eliminated as the author of the note.

And of course there is real evidence against the Ramseys:

Aren't you aware of the damaging fiber evidence which implicates both Patsy and John? This fiber evidence is not 'garbage', however much you would like it to be.

I'm convinced that we would not be discussing this case here today if the BPD had done the right thing after JB's dead body was found: arrested the Ramseys on the spot. For a child who died a violent death in the parents' own home would have justified their arrest.
They then should have been questioned separately and locked in the contradictions of their statements.
I'm not sure about John, but Patsy would not have stood up to the pressure of tough questioning, with all what she had done still so vivid in her mind. She would have broken down and confessed.
Of course the Ramseys could have chosen not to talk. But what inferences would you as investigator have drawn from their refusal to testify?

But instead of arresting the Ramseys, the Boulder police more or less let them flee from the crime scene without stepping in. An inexcusable mistake.

 

[Charlie]

Another thing you might have missed: the Whites publicly demanded that the case be handed over to an independent prosecutor. Would you demand a prosecutor who knows what he is doing if you were guilty? I certainly wouldn't . This would be the last thing I'd ask for.
And what, as opposed to the Whites, have the Ramseys ever done in that respect? You should ask yourself this question too, and also thoroughly read the open letter by the Whites.

This is the very reason i feel that Fleet white is innocent, Fleet white has done more to see that the investigation is handed over to someone independent, unbiased to look at the case with fresh eyes then the ramseys who if they were innocent would want the same done also, yet have the ramseys have ever campagined for a independent prosector...ah no

Yes because it makes me look good and on the small chance it happens I have no intention of speaking to that prosecutor or obeying his subpoenas either.

4Sure thats an awfully big chance to take if you were guilty. If fleet got his wish that a independent prosecutor came into the case, what could stop him becomming the focus like you suggest he should be. Unlikely the indepedent prosecutor would think "well since fleet asked for this independent prosecuctor that means he cant be involved in the case and therefore is excluded from futher investigation". The very point of having a independent prosecutor come into the case is for someone with fresh eyes too open the umbrella of suspcion to ecompass everyone and begin the process of elimination all over again, again too big a chance for fleet if he were truley guilty just to "look good". If this was indeed fleets motive and a special prosecutor did get appointed and fleet just disobeyed supeonas like you suggest his would, wouldnnt this be indicitive of his guilt, something a innocent person typically doesnt do, again making his campaign for a indepent prosector futile if he was guilty.

 

[coloradokares]

Of course your theory is far stranger than the more obvious explanation.
Open your eyes to these hard facts: a child has died a violent death in her own home, with both parents being present in the home while the child was killed. Hello?

But you prefer to look for a mythical intruder instead, claiming that one theory is just as plausible as another. It is not. While many things are possible, some things are less possible, dont you think so?

Pasty Ramsey was among the few people who could not be eliminated as the author of the note.

And of course there is real evidence against the Ramseys:

Aren't you aware of the damaging fiber evidence which implicates both Patsy and John? This fiber evidence is not 'garbage', however much you would like it to be.

I'm convinced that we would not be discussing this case here today if the BPD had done the right thing after JB's dead body was found: arrested the Ramseys on the spot. For a child who died a violent death in the parents' own home would have justified their arrest.
They then should have been questioned separately and locked in the contradictions of their statements.
I'm not sure about John, but Patsy would not have stood up to the pressure of tough questioning, with all what she had done still so vivid in her mind. She would have broken down and confessed.
Of course the Ramseys could have chosen not to talk. But what inferences would you as investigator have drawn from their refusal to testify?

But instead of arresting the Ramseys, the Boulder police more or less let them flee from the crime scene without stepping in. An inexcusable mistake.

Yes and I think we are about to find out why. Craig Silverman Former Denver DA...consultant on the JonBent case. Well he just reacted to the implication that John Mark Karr remains under suspicion and the whole of the 48 hours thing. He handed some people their hats and their rears. Hes on fire and he's not going to stop Heres the link to the Fox News story.
He wants to know what interest Feds or Homeland Security have in John Mark Karr a kook who confessed....He called it a gift from DA Lacy to Ramsey. Isnt this what I said was going to happen .... And if Homeland security is showing an interest that best speak to the "political agenda" that remains in this matter. You go Craig.....clean out the whole darn vipers nest!!

:woohoo:

Here is the link http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,231921,00.html

 

[4sure]

4Sure thats an awfully big chance to take if you were guilty. .

Not if your the one who's directing the cover up like so many accuse JR of. He seems to have just as much money and friends as JR and maybe even more. If you have inside info and know there's not going to be a IP then you can shout it till George Bush finds WMD's in Iraq and it's not going to matter or make a darn bit of difference.

I don't know he's guilty. I just see no reason to think he couldn't be except for DNA tests. Which would also clear JR and PR.

 

[Solace]

Solace, where exactly does John say that he replaced the chair - could you give a link? TIA, for there's so much going on in this thread that I can hardly catch up.

Rash,

I have the National Enquirer book with ONLY THE INTERVIEWS. I do not have the book with me today, but it is in the interview with LOU SMIT. I will get the exact dialogue tomorrow - I am working- but it is around Page 313, the end of the book and John is shown some crime scene photographs and one is showing the chair blocking the door to the wine cellar. He says he went down there between 7 and 9 and moved the chair to get into the wine cellar and looked around for maybe 30 seconds and came out and replaced the chair.

 

[Solace]

This is exactly what i dont understand, that if the crime scene photos were taken after 1pm once the body had been found then the chair after 1pm was in its blocked position which would me either John or fleet moved it infront of the train room door when they went down at 1pm. Yet fleet doesnt recall this. and john said he did this at 7-9am not later at 1. this would mean John moved the chair twice and replaced it twice, once in the morning and once at 1pm when he was in fleets company. If only we had access to all the case information, we could clear this up.

Timeline
1. Fleet and french go into basement before 7am and see no blocked chair
2. John goes into basement between 7-9am and sees blocked chair. moves it and then replaces it infront of train room door
3. Fleet and John goes into basement together at 1pm, both eneter the train room therefore someone would have had to move to chair, and then replaced it again upon exiting, again fleet doesnt recall a chair
4. crime scene photos taken after 1pm confirms that someone fleet or john moved the chair in front of the train room door in point 4.
5. am so confused it doesnt make sense

And Lou Smit does not press this in his interview either. Probably did it on purposes to drive us all crazy. I feel for you Charlie. This is how I felt the other day after reading Ned's theory that John was in the basement earlier in this thread. I went home and started reading again. Took me an hour to find the interview about the chair. BUT THAT IS WHERE IT STOPS. There is no mention of Lou asking John but did you move that chair again at 1:00 p.m.:doh: