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That JB was tarted up and taught to walk and pose in ways that mimic sexually suggestive poses used by older women is undeniable. What's not clear, at least to me, is that she was any different than the other contestants.

I understand why the media keeps banging on about it, becasue it's a world most of us never knew existed and it was sure to get tounges wagging. But what does it prove? It proves there are a lot of parents who'll let their young daughters get tarted up and pose in suggestive ways to win pagents.

I can understand PR putting great stock in the pagents - after all, that was her ticket to a successful life.

It's unusual for me to say anything defensive about the Rs, but if people are going to impute mental problems to PR based on allowing JB to enter pagents, then it seems necessary to impute mental problems to all the parents of all the contestants.
 
4sure said:
There is nothing sexually allluring about a six year old girl no matter how she is dressed. Unless you think every man in the world is a pedophile who is repressing his true feelings.

4sure,

I do not think every man in the world is a pedophile who is repressing his true feelings.


That you may consider that there is nothing sexually allluring about a six year old girl no matter how she is dressed. This an opinion not shared by persons such as J M Karr. and Michael Tracey et al, who are actively seeking people with this predeliction, since it makes for good box office and allows the Ramsey's and their legal entourage to influence the media output.

This is an aspect of the case that for some reason has escaped sober analysis. Possibly due to the constant exposure in the media of some of her pageant clips, which being visual confirm some people's suspicions, whilst allowing others with more politically correct opinions to promote their favorite point of view?

The two main theories used to explain JonBenet's death e.g. Intruder, Toilet Rage; are both inconsistent with the current forensic evidence. This is not particularly surprising given that JonBenet's death was staged as a homicide. So the true circumstances surrounding her death originate somewhere other than the wine-cellar.

So many people have had their fingers burned or careers diverted due to their involvement in this case that in professional circles, avoidance is deemed the best course of action.

How JonBenet dressed is a central theme running through this case. One example is did she normally wear underwear to bed, since she was discovered in the wine-cellar clad in size-12 pants? Then there is Patsy's allegation that she and JonBenet argued over how she should dress to the White's. Consider the selection and design of all those pageant outfits, and how this contrasts with the soiled denims found on the bathroom floor.

There is nothing sexually allluring about a six year old girl no matter how she is dressed.
She was dressed to be sexually allluring, some suggest this was to sway the Judges opinion, which plays to the view that all men are pedophiles! JonBenet was certainly sexualised in her public behaviour, one wonders to what extent this was evident in her private family sphere?

So how JonBenet was dressed and whether it was sexually alluring or not, may be more relevant than you think.



.
 
Chrishope said:
That JB was tarted up and taught to walk and pose in ways that mimic sexually suggestive poses used by older women is undeniable. What's not clear, at least to me, is that she was any different than the other contestants.

I understand why the media keeps banging on about it, becasue it's a world most of us never knew existed and it was sure to get tounges wagging. But what does it prove? It proves there are a lot of parents who'll let their young daughters get tarted up and pose in suggestive ways to win pagents.

I can understand PR putting great stock in the pagents - after all, that was her ticket to a successful life.

It's unusual for me to say anything defensive about the Rs, but if people are going to impute mental problems to PR based on allowing JB to enter pagents, then it seems necessary to impute mental problems to all the parents of all the contestants.

Chrishope,

One aspect of pageants, is that I assume very many, less well to do people, are seeking to find fame and fortune via their children.

Patsy was married to a millionaire she had no need for any financial gain resulting from pageant involvement, although some may suggest it was a means to spending, a personal piggy bank, dipped into not only by her but possibly by Nedra too?

Some have observed that JonBenet's pageant routines and costumes were patently more sexualized than that of the other contestants.

So what importance could this have in a case where the child was murdered, prior sexual abuse was alleged, and she was discovered wearing size-12 underwear?


.
 
UKGuy said:
Chrishope,

One aspect of pageants, is that I assume very many, less well to do people, are seeking to find fame and fortune via their children.

Patsy was married to a millionaire she had no need for any financial gain resulting from pageant involvement, although some may suggest it was a means to spending, a personal piggy bank, dipped into not only by her but possibly by Nedra too?

Some have observed that JonBenet's pageant routines and costumes were patently more sexualized than that of the other contestants.

So what importance could this have in a case where the child was murdered, prior sexual abuse was alleged, and she was discovered wearing size-12 underwear?


.


I never meant to imply PR was getting JB involved in pagents for financial gain. The pagents strike me as a financial sink-hole. My point was simply that pagents were how PR had success in life. It may be she wanted her daughter to have the same sort of success.

Another type of parent might have said JB your father is very successful in the computer industry. Maybe you should go into computers. But that's hard for a 6 year old to do, and it's not the way PR thought about a girl's career. PR and her sister both had success in pagents. I don't think there is anything unusual about her wanting that for her daughter.

I don't know whether JB was more sexualized than the other girls or not. If so, some links would be appropriate. Otherwise, it's just speculation.

As to the importance to the case - we simply don't know. Was she tarted up at home too? There are pics of her wearing lipstick at home, which I would find odd for a 6 year old. But at the same time, I work in a school, and see young girls of 6 to 8 wearing nail polish, and having pierced ears. So the "tarting up" at younger ages isn't limited to wealthy Boulderites.
 
UKGuy said:
4sure,

I do not think every man in the world is a pedophile who is repressing his true feelings.
.
(later in the same post)
UKGuy said:
which plays to the view that all men are pedophiles!
.
So your opinion is that all men are peophiles who are not repressing their ture feelings? So what stops 99% of all men from having sex or even thinking about having sex with children? Im sorry maybe I misunderstood the end of this post.
UKGuy said:
She was dressed to be sexually allluring, some suggest this was to sway the Judges opinion,
So your saying the judges in child pageants are pedophils? Six year olds that dress and move like adults are "cute" and "funny" at best not sexually alluring and not "meant" do be that way..[/QUOTE]
UKGuy said:
That you may consider that there is nothing sexually allluring about a six year old girl no matter how she is dressed. This an opinion not shared by persons such as J M Karr. and Michael Tracey et al, who are actively seeking people with this predeliction, since it makes for good box office and allows the Ramsey's and their legal entourage to influence the media output..
Well thats what I mean UKGuy. JMK is a pedophile.

This is America (no matter how some are trying to end it) We have the right to dress and dress are children any way we want. To consider PR guilty of dressing her daughter to be raped is to consider every woman who is raped at fault because she deserves it because of the way she is dressed. This is not the way it works in AMERICA. We do not bow down to the ciminals here. Maybe PR did get carried away with this "show girl" costume(although where I live it resembles nothing more that a new years day parade costume)but it dosen't mean it's her fault her daughter was molested.

.[/QUOTE]
 
4sure said:
(later in the same post)
So your opinion is that all men are peophiles who are not repressing their ture feelings? So what stops 99% of all men from having sex or even thinking about having sex with children? Im sorry maybe I misunderstood the end of this post.
So your saying the judges in child pageants are pedophils? Six year olds that dress and move like adults are "cute" and "funny" at best not sexually alluring and not "meant" do be that way

Well thats what I mean UKGuy. JMK is a pedophile.

This is America (no matter how some are trying to end it) We have the right to dress and dress are children any way we want. To consider PR guilty of dressing her daughter to be raped is to consider every woman who is raped at fault because she deserves it because of the way she is dressed. This is not the way it works in AMERICA. We do not bow down to the ciminals here. Maybe PR did get carried away with this "show girl" costume(although where I live it resembles nothing more that a new years day parade costume)but it dosen't mean it's her fault her daughter was molested.

4sure,

To consider PR guilty of dressing her daughter to be raped is to consider every woman who is raped at fault because she deserves it because of the way she is dressed.

Well if you wish to generalise like that, thats your opinion. Its a facile argument, we are not discussing all women just one girl who was murdered in her own house.

How JonBenet dressed matters because she is no longer with us, that one of her pageant outfits resembles nothing more that a new years day parade costume to you, is precisely the kind of attitude towards JonBenet's pageant participation that I was flagging up.

Maybe PR did get carried away with this "show girl" costume but it dosen't mean it's her fault her daughter was molested.
How do you know this, maybe her pageant appearances and public sexualisation represent the tip of the iceberg, what if there were collusion by PR to actively groom JonBenet via pageant participation?


.
 
This is America (no matter how some are trying to end it) We have the right to dress and dress are children any way we want.
.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Dressing a child the way a parent wants is hopefully done in the best interests of the child. Patsy had a right to enter JonBenet in pageants; and, unfortunately, she did just that. It was not a "second thought" type of thing as Patsy and John said. It required hours upon hours of rehearsal for JonBenet. It required her to forego her childhood. This does not make Patsy a murderer. It does shed some light on Patsy as a person, extremely selfish.
 
UKGuy said:
Chrishope,

One aspect of pageants, is that I assume very many, less well to do people, are seeking to find fame and fortune via their children.

Patsy was married to a millionaire she had no need for any financial gain resulting from pageant involvement, although some may suggest it was a means to spending, a personal piggy bank, dipped into not only by her but possibly by Nedra too?

Some have observed that JonBenet's pageant routines and costumes were patently more sexualized than that of the other contestants.

So what importance could this have in a case where the child was murdered, prior sexual abuse was alleged, and she was discovered wearing size-12 underwear?


.
UK, Do you think JR was molesting her?
 
If anything, .the IDIs would be more in line that the pageants did put JonBenet in danger. JMO.

You'd think that, wouldn't you?

If the idea was not to "sex up" JB, then why did they hire an 18-year-old to coach her?
 
I certainly understand what you are saying about the adult-like dress that JBR wore in these pageants and I for one would not dress my daughter like that but you cannot blame the victim. It's not different than saying a woman asked to be raped.

IMO she did not appear in any more danger than a child dressed as a normal child in pair of blue jeans and top. Pedophiles don't care what a child wears.
 
SuperDave said:
You'd think that, wouldn't you?

If the idea was not to "sex up" JB, then why did they hire an 18-year-old to coach her?
And, 4Sure, why did they hire photographer Randy Simmons, whose reputation was to make a six-year-old look like twenty in his pictures? Why? Because the idea was to sex JB up, no need to tap-dance around this issue.

This doesn't mean JB was sexed up because Patsy wanted to pimp her. The Ramseys were multimillionaires and did not need to 'sell' their daughter to anyone for money, like many people in third-world countries do.
Imo Patsy paraded JB around as a sex object because she saw her as an extension of her own sexual self (for example, both she and JB once came dressed as Marilyn Monroe), and also pushed her into these adult sexy outfits because she felt this would increase her chance to win. Patsy may very well have had male pageant jurors in mind whe choosing JB's dresses.

By doing all this she crossed a boundary which should not be crossed, for she (ab)used JB to satisfy her own ambition.

And all this may have led John to cross a boundary too and become JB's sexual abuser.

Remember that extremely revealing remark by Patsy who said (I'm paraphrasing) that she was relieved her mother Nedra slept in JB's room during the time she had to stay in hospital, for if John should ever get the thought of molesting JB, this would not be possible.
But that's quite a monstrous thing to say or even think. For it shows that Patsy did not put it past John to have (at least) thought of molesting his daughter.

And when on that fatal night, John suggested to her that they stage it as a sex crime, she went along with it, maybe even without specifically asking him why.
Patsy needed John to cover up for her, and John needed to camouflage the signs of sexual abuse, which is why he agreed to be her accomplice in the cover-up.
 
Solace said:
UK, Do you think JR was molesting her?

Solace,

If you accept Coroner Meyer's reported autopsy remarks regarding the enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, her staged sexual assault, and pageant sexualisation, then its difficult to avoid the distinct probability that someone was actively molesting JonBenet. That could be one of John, Patsy, or Burke Ramsey either individually or collectively?

An accident does not require all the complex staging involved, on a previous occassion when Burke whacked JonBenet with a golf-club she was rushed straight to hospital, no cover up, no staging!

Currently there is no theory that explains the forensic evidence satisfactorly. The Ramsey's had the best part of six-hours to stage a crime-scene yet what they eventually fabricated is full of self evident contradictions, and personal forensic evidence that links both parents to the staged crime-scene!

Why should this be, particularly if her death was accidental, they always knew her corpse would be discovered on the premises, so why mess up the very thing that is meant to hide an accident?

We also know the sequence that the staging took e.g. the wine-cellar staging preceded the writing of the ransom-note, else the ransom-note is redundant if JonBenet is discovered dead on her bedroom floor.

So there may have been a prior staging elsewhere in the house, which minimally involved the removal of incriminating forensic evidence, and possibly included JonBenet being wiped down, and redressed in her size-12 underwear?

Otherwise we have John and Patsy at the wine-cellar separately staging elements of her crime-scene. There is the possibility that John and Patsy were both involved at the wine-cellar with Patsy breaking the paintbrush and John applying it, along with a digital sexual assault, else it appears the work of Patsy?

So why would JonBenet need wiped down, why is this important, is this a fetish intruders exhibit during sex crimes? It cannot be because she wet the bed since there was subsequent post-mortem urine release onto her longjohns that was simply ignored, and soiled clothing was left on the bathroom floor. If it was to remove any resulting blood, how then would investigators distinguish between a domestic sexual assault and an intruder led one? Was Patsy fitting John up, did John suspect this so engage separate legal representation for them each?

Although John's shirt may have been used to wipe JonBenet down, this does not mean it was him that did it. If his shirt was in his bedroom or a laundry basket then his shirt can be used on JonBenet without him doing it. But if JonBenet was in John's bedroom, why should she be wiped down ahead of being sexually assaulted in the wine-cellar, since I assume the blood would follow from the sexual assault?

Can you imagine John rising at say 5AM to be told by Patsy "Hey I just killed JonBenet, but I have it all worked out, here is the plan, last time we saw her was when we put her to bed, then we went to bed, then we wake up, and discover a ransom-note ..." yada yada. Why should he go along with all this, possibly incriminating himself in a homicide?

But he did, so did Patsy and to a lesser extent Burke, since he knows what happened the previous night. So they are all colluding to hide something, and it cannot simply be JonBenet's death since that was always going to be self evident.

So her pageant sexualisation may simply be a reflection of her domestic abuse, where her role models are those of her abusers and form part of a pedophile pathology harkening back to a previous generation, e.g. no Spice-Girls or Britney Spears style here?





.
 
Remember that extremely revealing remark by Patsy who said (I'm paraphrasing) that she was relieved her mother Nedra slept in JB's room during the time she had to stay in hospital, for if John should ever get the thought of molesting JB, this would not be possible.
But that's quite a monstrous thing to say or even think. For it shows that Patsy did not put it past John to have (at least) thought of molesting his daughter.

Rash, I remember reading that and was taken by it also. She said I know that John did not molest JB because my mother slept with JonBenet and she would never have allowed that.

Having read that, if I were John, I would have hated Patsy for that.

In the last video of them together on 48 hours, Patsy looking horrible, walks to John and goes to hi five him. He did not look to happy to be with her, but then again, it could have just been the film and how it came out.
 
Maybe PR did get carried away with this "show girl" costume(although where I live it resembles nothing more that a new years day parade costume)but it dosen't mean it's her fault her daughter was molested.
No,but it is if she knew about it and didn't do anything.And was she actually encouraging it by dressing JB far beyond her yrs,and sexualizing her at that?If she played into it then she certainly shares some of the blame.
 
It does shed some light on Patsy as a person, extremely selfish.
And a liar at that.I caught the part on tv the other night about the R's saying JB was doing the pageants b/c they had a trunk full of dress-up clothes and she liked to dress up...baloney.I don't think she got interested in them that way.
 
UKGuy said:
Solace,

If you accept Coroner Meyer's reported autopsy remarks regarding the enlargement of JonBenet's hymen, her staged sexual assault, and pageant sexualisation, then its difficult to avoid the distinct probability that someone was actively molesting JonBenet. That could be one of John, Patsy, or Burke Ramsey either individually or collectively?

An accident does not require all the complex staging involved, on a previous occassion when Burke whacked JonBenet with a golf-club she was rushed straight to hospital, no cover up, no staging!

Currently there is no theory that explains the forensic evidence satisfactorly. The Ramsey's had the best part of six-hours to stage a crime-scene yet what they eventually fabricated is full of self evident contradictions, and personal forensic evidence that links both parents to the staged crime-scene!

Why should this be, particularly if her death was accidental, they always knew her corpse would be discovered on the premises, so why mess up the very thing that is meant to hide an accident?

We also know the sequence that the staging took e.g. the wine-cellar staging preceded the writing of the ransom-note, else the ransom-note is redundant if JonBenet is discovered dead on her bedroom floor.

So there may have been a prior staging elsewhere in the house, which minimally involved the removal of incriminating forensic evidence, and possibly included JonBenet being wiped down, and redressed in her size-12 underwear?

Otherwise we have John and Patsy at the wine-cellar separately staging elements of her crime-scene. There is the possibility that John and Patsy were both involved at the wine-cellar with Patsy breaking the paintbrush and John applying it, along with a digital sexual assault, else it appears the work of Patsy?

So why would JonBenet need wiped down, why is this important, is this a fetish intruders exhibit during sex crimes? It cannot be because she wet the bed since there was subsequent post-mortem urine release onto her longjohns that was simply ignored, and soiled clothing was left on the bathroom floor. If it was to remove any resulting blood, how then would investigators distinguish between a domestic sexual assault and an intruder led one? Was Patsy fitting John up, did John suspect this so engage separate legal representation for them each?

Although John's shirt may have been used to wipe JonBenet down, this does not mean it was him that did it. If his shirt was in his bedroom or a laundry basket then his shirt can be used on JonBenet without him doing it. But if JonBenet was in John's bedroom, why should she be wiped down ahead of being sexually assaulted in the wine-cellar, since I assume the blood would follow from the sexual assault?

Can you imagine John rising at say 5AM to be told by Patsy "Hey I just killed JonBenet, but I have it all worked out, here is the plan, last time we saw her was when we put her to bed, then we went to bed, then we wake up, and discover a ransom-note ..." yada yada. Why should he go along with all this, possibly incriminating himself in a homicide?

But he did, so did Patsy and to a lesser extent Burke, since he knows what happened the previous night. So they are all colluding to hide something, and it cannot simply be JonBenet's death since that was always going to be self evident.

So her pageant sexualisation may simply be a reflection of her domestic abuse, where her role models are those of her abusers and form part of a pedophile pathology harkening back to a previous generation, e.g. no Spice-Girls or Britney Spears style here?


But it is highly unusual for a mother to be molesting her daughter, is it not? Also, could the abrasions, etc. be from Patsy cleaning JonBenet in a very rough manner - Linda H. Paugh said she heard Patsy yelling at JonBenet in the bathroom all the time and JonBenet crying and yelling.
 
JMO8778 said:
And a liar at that.I caught the part on tv the other night about the R's saying JB was doing the pageants b/c they had a trunk full of dress-up clothes and she liked to dress up...baloney.I don't think she got interested in them that way.
Yes, JonBenet loved spending hours upon hours perfecting her acts. She just loved it. :cool:
 
But it is highly unusual for a mother to be molesting her daughter, is it not? Also, could the abrasions, etc. be from Patsy cleaning JonBenet in a very rough manner - Linda H. Paugh said she heard Patsy yelling at JonBenet in the bathroom all the time and JonBenet crying and yelling.
I wonder that as well.I guess it would depend on where the abrasions were...if they were very internal,it would seem more likely to be sexual abuse.
 
JMO8778 said:
I wonder that as well.I guess it would depend on where the abrasions were...if they were very internal,it would seem more likely to be sexual abuse.
Yes but she could have been douching, as grotesque as it sounds, could she not?
 
Solace said:
Yes but she could have been douching, as grotesque as it sounds, could she not?
yes, I forgot about that,I had mentioned that on another thread,as well as someone else pointed out that maybe she was given Monostat or another internal med. for a yeast infection.(from sexual abuse?)
 

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