Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #4

[Jaiddie]

No one has come forward about seeing TH alive after the she left the Avery property. But would you if you were involved ?

LE could've killed SA ( I believe Peterson brought that up ) ... but if they messed up, they would on trial for murder. If SA is not guilty, it is much easier to plant evidence and frame someone. JMO ...

There was a phone call between Remiker and Weigart where they were saying that a woman had reported that she had spotted TH on the side of a road photographing a cow, at some point later that evening, but that is the only time I heard that mentioned in this investigation. I don't know if they followed up on it or just decided that SA did it so no point checking it out. smh

*I am including the link to this phone call, it is the first video.

http://stevenaverycase.com/phone-calls-between-investigators/#sthash.EkWa8BAQ.dpbs

 

[ElleElle]

Ok....I'll give you that...so she either talked to him for 1:20 or he left a voicemail for 1:20.

Let's say that he did take her sim card out and put his into her phone, to erase a potential VM from his phone, would that register on his phone bill? yes/no? Could he access her vm with his sim card if it was in her phone....and if so...I would love to see his phone records from November 1st thru 4th, to see if there were multiple calls to his VM registered--to gain access to her VM.

BBM ~ IMO, I don't think SA would know how to do that.

 

[ElleElle]

I'm guessing by then she recognized the address.

Especially when he name of the road is Avery

 

[ElleElle]

Yes, but the 2:35 call was 1 minute 20 seconds long from TH's records....meaning he hung up at 2:36:20. If TH was in route and her cell phone was switching towers, it is very possible her phone did not register the call until she got to the other tower. In which case, she never got the call.

For instance, I have a friend who lives in the UP. If I try to call him when he reaches a town called Abrams, WI--he has no cell phone service. My call goes straight to VM. A little while later, the cell service kicks in and his phone registers a missed call and a voice mail.

BBM ~ Agreed. This is what happens to my brother's phone, as he lives in rural Manitoba, Canada.

 

[Madeleine74]

There a couple of witnesses that saw her drive off the Avery property.

Saw and identified TH? Or just her SUV?

 

[Madeleine74]

How is it easy to frame someone for murder? How does one ensure that every other piece of evidence lines up? (body, bones, blood, phone calls, items found, schedule of victim that day).

How often does this actually occur (planted blood? planted body? really?) And that wide conspiracy is accepted without question, but the idea of the guy who tortured and burned alive his pet cat and allegedly sexually assaulted one or more others including his nephew, being capable of committing murder (he did have the means and the opportunity) cannot be accepted?

And finally, where is the guarantee a jury will convict that person? Juries can be unpredictable.

 

[ElleElle]

And SA, in his statement to LE, said she was there for like 5 minutes or so. According to SA she arrived somewhere between 2:30 and maybe 3pm at the latest. SA's version of events has her out of there around 3pm-ish, which doesn't fit into anyone else's timeframe of what they saw and when.

Wouldn't you find it interesting that DST ended on October 30th, 2005? This could be a good reason at the times being messed up.
---------
Oct 30, 2005 - Daylight Saving Time Ended
When local daylight time was about to reach
Sunday, October 30, 2005, 2:00:00 AM clocks were turned backward 1 hour to
Sunday, October 30, 2005, 1:00:00 AM local standard time instead

Sunrise and sunset was about 1 hour earlier on Oct 30, 2005 than the day before. There was more light in the morning.

Also called Fall Back and winter time.
------------
http://www.timeanddate.com/time/change/usa/madison?year=2005

 

[Madeleine74]

Wouldn't you find it interesting that DST ended on October 30th, 2005? This could be a good reason at the times being messed up.

I posted that last week as one hypothesis of people's inconsistent times.

 

[ElleElle]

Saw and identified TH? Or just her SUV?

According to this, I suppose one can form an opinion, but I still believe times are off for some due to DST.
--------

"School bus driver Lisa Buchner testified today that she usually drops off two Avery nephews between 3:30 and 4:40 p.m., about the same time she saw a woman taking photos of a van.

She couldn't remember the exact day.

"John (removed*), who delivers propane for Valders Co-op, says he was filling up at a station nearby at around 3:30 p.m. that day and saw a green sports utility vehicle leave the property, but he didn't see who was driving.

Special prosecutor Ken Kratz has put Halbach on the property at around 2:30 p.m."

I highly doubt TH was on the property between 2:30-3:30pm.

http://www.wsaw.com/news/headlines/6386482.html

 

[Sustained]

I posted that last week as one hypothesis of people's inconsistent times.

And it was refuted because if clocks were not rolled back for DST, the clocks would shown an hour later not earlier. So a clock in the Dassey's house that was not changed would have shown 4:30 when the boys came home from school, not 3:30.

 

[Madeleine74]

Special prosecutor Ken Kratz has put Halbach on the property at around 2:30 p.m."

I highly doubt TH was on the property between 2:30-3:30pm.

SA claims she was there at that time, Bobby Dassey claims he saw her on the property before and after taking his shower and getting ready to leave, phone call logs show SA calling TH before, and TH told Auto Trader she was "on her way" to the Avery appointment.

I don't know who is right and who is wrong, but the phone logs themselves help highlight TH's movement that day.

 

[MysticJynx]

How is it easy to frame someone for murder? How does one ensure that every other piece of evidence lines up? (body, bones, blood, phone calls, items found, schedule of victim that day).

How often does this actually occur (planted blood? planted body? really?) And that wide conspiracy is accepted without question, but the idea of the guy who tortured and burned alive his pet cat and allegedly sexually assaulted one or more others including his nephew, being capable of committing murder (he did have the means and the opportunity) cannot be accepted?

And finally, where is the guarantee a jury will convict that person? Juries can be unpredictable.

You know what irks me most. Is this cat. I am love all animals but cats I would say would be my choice of pet. What he and his friends did to that cat was horrible. I say his friends cause it states in records that Steven was PARTY to the crime. Meaning there were others involved. Sounds to me like he had remorse for doing it. HE served his time and did his dues back in the early 80s.
Also this is one of the reasons that Manitowoc set sights on Avery for the wrongful conviction of the Brutal rape and attempted murder to PB. He served his time for this crime. He even pleads GUILTY to it. However just because he was young, stupid and even cruel to that cat, did not mean he was guilty of the PB case in which he WAS wrongfully convicted of. It also doesn't make him the murderer of TH. I was actually very surprised that the LE involved in the case now wants to bring such light of that again. So again they railroaded him because when he was 19 or 20 he made a cruel mistake. Then I am supposed to believe that investigation wasn't bias. Opening statements from KK mentions Its not about his past, the case was about assigning accountability to TH's ACCUSED Killer, Steven Avery. So without the Hearsay, and his past. You have a bunch of circumstantial evidence that could have meant anything. like that last call from him could have been setting up one of the hustle shots she got paid to do. We do not know with absolute certainty what that call was about. You have him calling to Auto Trader to make an appointment under his sisters name. Which seems all three of her appointments that day were set up by someone else other than the person TH actually met with. So that seems routine. What you have is planted evidence that had started with the first bit of evidence the detectives received from her Friends that were incomplete and written notes on them next to his sisters phone number is written STEVEN AVERY!. How on earth did RH know that number for B.Janda was connected to Steve Avery and even if he did know. how come not just write the name of the real owner of that phone number on her bill he hands to the detectives. Why not include the 4:35 call that was Clearly SA? Why did he not give detectives the last two calls that were on TH's bill for Oct 31? To much with her phone bill was left out of the trial and I question why. This is the best time line they had for her last whereabouts, why not give it all to the police unless you yourself is hiding something. IMO

 

[Madeleine74]

I don't think anyone in LE framed SA, and certainly not for the heinous thing he did to his pet cat.

However, as an animal lover who makes zero apologies for it, hearing about what he did to the cat (and I don't care what age he was) made me want him and anyone involved to spend decades in prison. That's right. I hold the welfare of animals in great esteem and anyone who tortures and kills an animal has my immediate red hot fury. Babies and animals, nothing else causes me that level of fury than hurting either.

It's just something that is a non-negotiable with me.

 

[Sustained]

I don't think anyone in LE framed SA, and certainly not for the heinous thing he did to his pet cat.

However, as an animal lover who makes zero apologies for it, hearing about what he did to the cat (and I don't care what age he was) made me want him and anyone involved to spend decades in prison. That's right. I hold the welfare of animals in great esteem and anyone who tortures and kills an animal has my immediate red hot fury. Babies and animals, nothing else causes me that level of fury than hurting either.

It's just something that is a non-negotiable with me.

Agreed, and I would add those who mock folks with disabilities and those who abuse homeless folks to the list.

 

[pittie_mcclure]

For me, it is terrifying that you can be wrongly convicted of a crime and spend 18 years in jail for that. SA was far from an angel. He grew up poor in small town Wisconsin (which I have spent a lot of my time) and his behaviors are more common than some might want to think. Obviously they are not the norm but animals are not looked at the same way some of us do. I go as far as thinking leaving your dog outside should be a punishable crime. I think eating meat from factory farms where animals are tortured and abused before they are killed makes those eating the meat part sociopath for not caring but should I be allowed to use that to convict somebody of a brutal murder? What SA did to that cat is HORRIBLE and I own 3 rescue dogs myself so I am in no way excusing that behavior. You know that saying "I don't care who dies as long as the dog lives"? Yea, that's me. Seriously. Humans can defend but animals are at our mercy. SA and I could never be friends but it was 21 years before this. In the USA you're allowed to be an *advertiser censored******, unfortunately. You can be a jerk and nobody can like you. Having a criminal record from 20 years ago does not mean the system can railroad you or do an extremely poor investigation because you "probably" did it. We need to make sure cases are being handled correctly, proficiently and honorably. How many people are wrongly convincted because of assumptions and alleged behaviors? That's emotional stuff, too. ("But he sounds so mean and I don't like that so he must be guilty!") And worse than that, how many criminals are set free because of technicalities that could have easily been avoided if people did their job properly? That is scary to me.

Other women were sexually assaulted because the police thought Avery was a bad guy and did a half-*advertiser censored**ed investigation letting the actual rapist run free. People aren't supposed to want to go through everything with a fine-toothed comb after the same officers had a hand in convicting Avery a second time?

If those that don't seem to even want anybody to have a conversation about this messed up case were in Avery's shoes, or anybody else YOU loved were in such a predicament, wouldn't you be want a thorough investigation? If there was even a slight chance that the police that wrongfully accused you before may have helped find evidence the second time around, wouldn't that naturally lead you to think that other evidence found might be contaminated as well or that evidence to convinct somebody else might be overlooked or that things simply weren't done appropriately? Wouldn't you ask for a second investigation of EVERYTHING?

If Avery came from a family with money this may never had happened to begin with.. but our system is corrupt and flawed. It happens every day in Chicago. Cops plant drugs and weapons on people all the time. People plead guilty to misdemeanor crimes they aren't guilty of so they do less time because they are: afraid, poor, uneducated.. Pick one or all three, it doesn't matter because it happens all the time.

Do people still believe there is no corruption within the walls of the justice system on a large scale? I have even been a part of it on a very small scale. A cop in a suburb of Chicago just committed suicide and his whole department led a wild goose chase for criminals they knew didn't exist to help cover up corruption throughout the entire department. They wasted thousands upon thousands upon thousands of taxpayers' money trying to help the reputation of a cop who had been stealing from tax payers for years and years and years. He set up his suicide to look like murder and the department helped him. If they're doing it every day for simple things, why wouldn't they do it for something as big as the Avery case? There were reputations and millions of dollars at stake. Crazier things have happened for way, way less. Brandon alone is a case for a huge injustice happening while everybody is watching and yet nobody does anything. What happened to him should make us all ashamed.

This case is so layered. Even if you think Avery did it you have to be appalled at how they got their conviction. I want my justice system to be fair and work efficiently because that is supposed to be one of the things that sets us apart.. we are civilized and fair. I would be scared every day that if somebody accused me of a crime I wouldn't be able to afford to prove my innocence and that is so sad to me. And I also didn't spend 18 years for a crime I didn't commit. I wonder what kind of person I would be if I had.

And lastly, for Theresa, the way this case was handled was mostly an injustice to her. Whoever killed her should have been convicted and put in jail forever the right way -- especially if Avery did kill her -- so her family wouldn't have to go through the pain I can only image they are experiencing right now. It breaks my heart for Theresa and those that love her. My frustration with this case comes mainly from a place in my chest that hurts for TH and all of the other victims of our justice system. Other races in this country have been screaming about this for years and this documentary series finally portrayed the flaws in our justice system in a way that should be obvious to everybody.

This isn't about how you personally feel about Avery. This case is about our flawed justice system and the lives that are ruined because of it.

 

[ElleElle]

I don't think anyone in LE framed SA, and certainly not for the heinous thing he did to his pet cat.

However, as an animal lover who makes zero apologies for it, hearing about what he did to the cat (and I don't care what age he was) made me want him and anyone involved to spend decades in prison. That's right. I hold the welfare of animals in great esteem and anyone who tortures and kills an animal has my immediate red hot fury. Babies and animals, nothing else causes me that level of fury than hurting either.

It's just something that is a non-negotiable with me.

BBM ~ Do we know it was his "pet"? Perhaps it was one of Lord knows how many cats they had on the property.

 

[MysticJynx]

I don't think anyone in LE framed SA, and certainly not for the heinous thing he did to his pet cat.

However, as an animal lover who makes zero apologies for it, hearing about what he did to the cat (and I don't care what age he was) made me want him and anyone involved to spend decades in prison. That's right. I hold the welfare of animals in great esteem and anyone who tortures and kills an animal has my immediate red hot fury. Babies and animals, nothing else causes me that level of fury than hurting either.

It's just something that is a non-negotiable with me.

You can be outraged all you want. that case was tried and he did his time. This is about who murdered TH and if it was possible that LE setup and framed Avery for it after the fact. I am not sure who killed TH. Not even sure if the police really planted the evidence. However I do know that the presence of Man. Co. Sheriffs Dept. they created a very big APPEARANCE that evidence could have been planted. Something they told the public they wanted to avoid. That says right there that if anyone is proven to be liars in this case it was the Sheriff's Dept. Any and all evidence that pertained to this case that was collected even in the presence of a Sheriff or member of that LE community should be thrown out and the case should be retried with the evidence that was collected by the Calumet Co. alone. And what was that exactly, The faulty phone bill given to officers by her concerned friends and family. SAD! This case is just sad. Teresa deserved a thorough, non biased investigation of what happened to her. However the ego of the Manitowoc Sheriff Department did not allow that for this young woman who lost her life. If there is anyone to blame in the outcome now of the Netflix series being released, it is the LE agencies that handle this case, and did not follow ANY protocol so they could convict the one and only man they wanted to be guilty. Poor Brendan was supposed to be USED as a witness and all his coerced confessions pushed him further into the fire pit.

Speaking of BD.. I was listening to that first interview that was recorded back in 11/2005. here is example of how he will just say yes to anything they ask him. About 33mins and 30 seconds in the conversation starts with someone opening the car door and hearing the dinging....

Det 1. Who's Blaine?
Det 2. Blaines the brother
BD brother
Det1. Blaine or bryan
BD blain
Det1 Which one is he
Det2. The brother he walked... ?in on?
BD Yeah
Det 1. You got Bobby
BD brian and blaine
Det 1. Bryan Blaine and you so there is FIVE BROTHERS all together?
BD YEAH

There is only 3 brothers and from what I understand a step brother. that's still only 4 brothers, but they dont even mention that one. So Himself, Bryan, Bobby and Blaine still only makes 4. Even the cops up there can't count.

 

[missy1974]

Well said pittie_mcclure!

 

[missy1974]

There is a half brother..... Brad, Mystic. they all share the same father.

 

[missy1974]

one of the reporters.... nicknamed "the Silver Fox" from the documentary was actually inspired to go to law school after this trial!
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news...pired-reporter-to-go-into-law-20160126?page=3

here he talks about the infamous news conference.... There is no way that this didn't play into this trial and the jurors. (snip)

I go down to Calumet County to where they're having the press conference, and we set up, and the only thing [we know] is just that [there had been] another arrest in the Teresa Halbach case. We had no idea that Ken Kratz was going to sit there and basically, in graphic detail, give his version of the way this went down. The degree of detail that he gave there was honestly a shock to me, to the point that when the thing wrapped up, I went out into the live truck in the parking lot and just sat there with the door closed for about an hour and talked to my parents. It was the single most shocking thing I have ever experienced as a human being, listening to that press conference. I needed to talk to some decent human beings who I love. I called my parents, because I knew I could get a hold of one of them at that time of the day.

And I remember struggling to report it, emotionally. I remember at some point, the next day, calling up at least one of Teresa's friends and saying, "Are you OK?"

I mean, it was bad. I actually lectured my own law school class about that press conference when I was in law school.