Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #5

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Is that a "healing" bite mark on his left forearm? To me it looks like if he had his arm wrapped around TH with the inner part of the arm facing her face, that could be the 2 lower canines and the skin is raised above that....


I am quite sure if that is what that was LE would have made a point to take pics of bite marks on SA. The comments from the thread I got that from were saying they looked like possibly burn marks from maybe welding. I was speaking about how his credibility comes across compared to many on the opposing side. As far as marks on him goes, I'd like to point out the guy worked in a junk yard. I am sure that minor injuries are quite frequent when working on old cars everyday. JMO.

Edit: included more information on my opinion of the subject.
 
Ohhh I feel for her family too. But my opinion differs from your opinion, and I feel that they are left with the image that Kratz has implanted in their mind, with ZERO evidence to back it up. Her poor mother has to think about how TH was murdered every single day... and not only is she gone, she was told that she was raped by not only SA, but BD, stabbed, throat slit and shot 10-11 times. THAT is the image that KRATZ left them with. I'm sorry.... but whoever did this to TH, whether it be SA or anyone else, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that this is how it happened but Kratz just keeps on spouting his gruesome theory. If nothing else comes from this situation.... I hope someone sometime has the balls to tell them that this was NOT how it happened because there is no evidence.
What do you think her family should be told...that she was licked to death by the ghost of the cat Avery through in the fire? What happened to Teresa is gruesome and her family would know that. You can't blame that on Kratz, no matter how much you dislike him.
And imagine how her family must have felt knowing how her remains were dealt with by LE.... shovelled into a pail and sifted... they didn't even have the decency to deal with her remains in the proper manner, they didn't even try!!!!!!

That is standard procedure. It might not sound nice, but that is the awful reality. They can't just leave her there and not bring her killer to justice.
All JMO... and yep, Kratz is a douchebag who narrated that dang theory and it ticks me off.... People have held on to this theory for 10 years... 10 YEARS!!!!!! I would consider changing my mind if someone could show me one ounce of proof that this is what happened.
Thats fine that you think he is a douche bag. People keep hanging on to that theory because the truth doesn't change. In the eyes of the law, and I personally agree with, Teresa Halbach's life was brutally taken by Steven Avery with the assistance of Brendan Dassey. She is not coming back and Avery will not be let out no matter how much pomp and ceremony Zellner carries on with.
 
I personally feel that SA is guilty; however I do feel like the actual story that happened would be nice for the family to know. We do know that the story that BD told was NOT what happened as there is no actual evidence to support that fantasy. KK did not care that the story was not the truth and I think that is where the issue I have lies. They just ran with it and kept repeating it even though they knew it was not the truth which is why it was not the story told in court.

Haphazardly shoveling bones from a fire pit into a cardboard box IS NOT standard procedure.
 
I personally feel that SA is guilty; however I do feel like the actual story that happened would be nice for the family to know. We do know that the story that BD told was NOT what happened as there is no actual evidence to support that fantasy. KK did not care that the story was not the truth and I think that is where the issue I have lies. They just ran with it and kept repeating it even though they knew it was not the truth which is why it was not the story told in court.

Haphazardly shoveling bones from a fire pit into a cardboard box IS NOT standard procedure.

This! :clap:

Edit: However, I do NOT think he is guilty....I lean waaaaay more to the side of innocent and framed, just as Zellner is declaring. I can't wait to see what she has, cuz I am positive she has something with the confidence she has in stating that as forcefully as she has been doing.
 
What do you think her family should be told...that she was licked to death by the ghost of the cat Avery through in the fire? What happened to Teresa is gruesome and her family would know that. You can't blame that on Kratz, no matter how much you dislike him.


That is standard procedure. It might not sound nice, but that is the awful reality. They can't just leave her there and not bring her killer to justice.

Thats fine that you think he is a douche bag. People keep hanging on to that theory because the truth doesn't change. In the eyes of the law, and I personally agree with, Teresa Halbach's life was brutally taken by Steven Avery with the assistance of Brendan Dassey. She is not coming back and Avery will not be let out no matter how much pomp and ceremony Zellner carries on with.

Thanks for your opinion ....

I'm 80% convinced that SA is involved, 0% convinced that BD had anything to do with it but cleanup, and I would not be surprised if SA walks free if Zellner can secure a new trial. All it takes is some form of reasonable doubt and one juror to declare a mistrial. Anything can happen in a court of law.

What I struggle with is the reality of ...

1) The RAV4 being left on the Avery property
2) TH's body being burned right next to SA's trailer and so close to the Dassey house
3) TH being shot in SA's garage and no one heard anything
4) SA leaving the key in his bedroom, but cleaning up everything else x/c for the RAV4
5) SA's demeanor during the 11/5-11/7 interviews
6) The timeline and the bus & propane driver sightings
7) Why SA didn't attack TH in her previous 10-15 visits
8) The coincidence of the depositions and the civil lawsuit against the county
9) And if SA guilty/BD not, how could anyone inflict such emotional distress on his own sister ?
 
I personally feel that SA is guilty; however I do feel like the actual story that happened would be nice for the family to know. We do know that the story that BD told was NOT what happened as there is no actual evidence to support that fantasy. KK did not care that the story was not the truth and I think that is where the issue I have lies. They just ran with it and kept repeating it even though they knew it was not the truth which is why it was not the story told in court.

Haphazardly shoveling bones from a fire pit into a cardboard box IS NOT standard procedure.
If he had any remorse he would confess so her family knew what exactly happened and why. He is the only one who knows.

I don't think anyone from LE disrespected Teresa's remains. Her family has had nothing but positive things to say about the whole process and they would know.
 
What do you think her family should be told...that she was licked to death by the ghost of the cat Avery through in the fire? What happened to Teresa is gruesome and her family would know that. You can't blame that on Kratz, no matter how much you dislike him.


That is standard procedure. It might not sound nice, but that is the awful reality. They can't just leave her there and not bring her killer to justice.

Thats fine that you think he is a douche bag. People keep hanging on to that theory because the truth doesn't change. In the eyes of the law, and I personally agree with, Teresa Halbach's life was brutally taken by Steven Avery with the assistance of Brendan Dassey. She is not coming back and Avery will not be let out no matter how much pomp and ceremony Zellner carries on with.

Her family deserves the truth... and there is NO EVIDENCE that she was raped and tortured. NONE. Oh wait... are you relying on the confession of a 16 yr old? because there was no evidence to back-up his confession either. Every piece of evidence that was corroborated in his confession was given to him by the investigators beforehand.

And really.... that theory is really how it happened? If that's the case.... why did charges get dropped? I'll tell you why.... BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE!!!!!! And Kratz, 10 years later, is still shooting his mouth off saying that is how it happened.

As for how her remains were dealt with.... have you read the transcripts? have you done any research? This was not standard and they deviated from protocol.
 
I personally feel that SA is guilty; however I do feel like the actual story that happened would be nice for the family to know. We do know that the story that BD told was NOT what happened as there is no actual evidence to support that fantasy. KK did not care that the story was not the truth and I think that is where the issue I have lies. They just ran with it and kept repeating it even though they knew it was not the truth which is why it was not the story told in court.

Haphazardly shoveling bones from a fire pit into a cardboard box IS NOT standard procedure.

Exactly slashkiss! Even if you think SA is guilty, there is just no evidence to back up that March 2, 2006 News conference! I think he was "stuck" with that theory..... but he continues to say it even now. I might actually gain just a bit of respect for the guy if he was to come out and say.... ok, well, maybe that is not how it happened, but he still did it!

I hope that her family also sees what most of us have now.... and if nothing else, realize that it's most likely that she was not raped and tortured. I know in one interview that Kratz did, he said he had not talked to them, that they just want to move on ..... I have to wonder if they just didn't want to talk to him.
 
Personally I completely discount Dassey's "confession." However I do think Avery raped her and killed her. The reason I think he raped her is that without a sexual assault there really is no motive for killing her. I don't think he intended to kill her the day she came out. IMO he was probably drunk and sexually assaulted her and when she fought back and threatened him with turning him in, he just went ahead and killed her.

One reason for burning her body would be to remove all traces of his DNA, semen etc. There's no evidence that he shot her or caused blood shed anywhere (I don't agree with the theory she was shot in the garage, there's just no evidence of spatter)

I think he was angry that Jodi had been sent to prison again. He saw TH and went too far and then he raped and strangled her. The blood on the bullet could have come from him shooting at the corpse while he was burning it.

As far as the pelvic bone goes, there are two parts of the human body that are immediately identifiable as human. The skull and the pelvic bone. Also the phalanges but those can be chopped up rather easily. So after burning the body I think he chopped up the bones as best as he could and removed the pieces that looked human.
 
There's no evidence that he shot her or caused blood shed anywhere

There is evidence she was shot twice in the head. Testimony by the M.E. Remains of her skull showed the proof of that. Exactly where it happened can only be inferred by where the bullet fragment with TH DNA was found (in the garage).
 
Her family deserves the truth... and there is NO EVIDENCE that she was raped and tortured. NONE. Oh wait... are you relying on the confession of a 16 yr old? because there was no evidence to back-up his confession either. Every piece of evidence that was corroborated in his confession was given to him by the investigators beforehand.

And really.... that theory is really how it happened? If that's the case.... why did charges get dropped? I'll tell you why.... BECAUSE THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE!!!!!! And Kratz, 10 years later, is still shooting his mouth off saying that is how it happened.

As for how her remains were dealt with.... have you read the transcripts? have you done any research? This was not standard and they deviated from protocol.

Of course her family deserves the truth. Only the killer can give them that as well as the reason why. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

In a case like this, where her body was almost disintegrated, physical evidence of rape is impossible. That does not mean it didn't happen. What do you think they doing before she died? Baking cookies? You make it sound like she died in a beautiful and peaceful fashion and are offended if anyone suggests otherwise.

When Dassey described how she pleaded with him to do the right thing, I believe he was speaking the truth. That was not made up, he was remembering it and I hope it still haunts him. Doesn't sound like she was having a good time if she was pleading for her life. One might say it would be torture.

I first followed this case years ago on another forum. I didn't just watch it on Netflix and think I know all the facts.
 
Of course her family deserves the truth. Only the killer can give them that as well as the reason why. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

In a case like this, where her body was almost disintegrated, physical evidence of rape is impossible. That does not mean it didn't happen. What do you think they doing before she died? Baking cookies? You make it sound like she died in a beautiful and peaceful fashion and are offended if anyone suggests otherwise.

When Dassey described how she pleaded with him to do the right thing, I believe he was speaking the truth. That was not made up, he was remembering it and I hope it still haunts him. Doesn't sound like she was having a good time if she was pleading for her life. One might say it would be torture.

I first followed this case years ago on another forum. I didn't just watch it on Netflix and think I know all the facts.

Dassey's multiple inconsistent "confessions" are not facts ... some of us believe BD was only there for the cleanup.
 
Of course her family deserves the truth. Only the killer can give them that as well as the reason why. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

In a case like this, where her body was almost disintegrated, physical evidence of rape is impossible. That does not mean it didn't happen. What do you think they doing before she died? Baking cookies? You make it sound like she died in a beautiful and peaceful fashion and are offended if anyone suggests otherwise.

When Dassey described how she pleaded with him to do the right thing, I believe he was speaking the truth. That was not made up, he was remembering it and I hope it still haunts him. Doesn't sound like she was having a good time if she was pleading for her life. One might say it would be torture.

I first followed this case years ago on another forum. I didn't just watch it on Netflix and think I know all the facts.

BBM
So you obviously don't think it makes a difference to her family about HOW this happened? I disagree, 100%.

You believe Brendan raped her..... I disagree, 100%

You followed this case years ago.... that gives me insight, thanks.

I will never waiver on the fact that I feel her family deserves to know the truth about the manner in which she died. If her mother at this point is replaying this rape and torture in her head (which I am sure she does) and someone could just ease that pain for her (which I do think it would), I feel it should be done.

I 100% do NOT believe the Kratz narrative.
 
Sustained ~ it's nice to have you back posting :) Didn't see you for a few days!

You posted this morning about Zellner getting SA a new trial..... I think she is going for full exoneration. Just from some of her tweets.
 
Sustained ~ it's nice to have you back posting :) Didn't see you for a few days!

You posted this morning about Zellner getting SA a new trial..... I think she is going for full exoneration. Just from some of her tweets.

Thanks Missy ! Sometimes my personal life gets in the way of my obsession ... :sigh:

A new trial may be the best Zellner can do, unless she can produce a total exculpation of SA via new evidence.
 
Thanks Missy ! Sometimes my personal life gets in the way of my obsession ... :sigh:

A new trial may be the best Zellner can do, unless she can produce a total exculpation of SA via new evidence.

LOL I hear ya!

And yep, that is the way she is making it sound on twitter.... now whether she can do that is another story LOL I remember Buting saying in an interview or something that he had been contacted by over 100 scientists ... my guess is that Zellner has a lot of qualified individuals that are willing to do whatever they can (if for nothing else.... the publicity lol)
 
Of course her family deserves the truth. Only the killer can give them that as well as the reason why. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

In a case like this, where her body was almost disintegrated, physical evidence of rape is impossible. That does not mean it didn't happen. What do you think they doing before she died? Baking cookies? You make it sound like she died in a beautiful and peaceful fashion and are offended if anyone suggests otherwise.

When Dassey described how she pleaded with him to do the right thing, I believe he was speaking the truth. That was not made up, he was remembering it and I hope it still haunts him. Doesn't sound like she was having a good time if she was pleading for her life. One might say it would be torture.

I first followed this case years ago on another forum. I didn't just watch it on Netflix and think I know all the facts.

Most people here on this forum have went WAY beyond the Netflix documentary. The film students that created that doc have just raised awareness and got us started researching this case, which was the intended purpose of creating the documentary in the first place. They have stated repeatedly that MaM was not about Steven Avery's guilt or innocence, but was made to show how broken the system is. We are getting the FACTS straight from the trial transcripts and evidence documents and photos (what photos they decided was important enough to include in the investigation, that is). The link where you can read them for yourself is included below.

http://stevenaverycase.com/steven-avery-trial-transcripts/#sthash.rFZ7mSMI.dpbs
 
Bobby was not working, he was with his friend and showed up at the scene around 1pm and wanted his puppy. Not sure when he left.

BCA, Earl didn't live there. Steve, Barb and her 3 kids (sometimes 4), Charles and the parents lived there. His Mom and Blaine (or maybe it was Brendan) went with Steve, in Steve's car, to the cabin. If Steve was planning on doing anything.... why did he plan on taking them up there Saturday morning? And again.... he had no way of knowing that he would have days to "deal" with the vehicle. It's not logical at all that he hid it there until he could deal with it IMO

You know who knew they had time. The person deleting her VM. He was doing so to keep the family from worrying before he could dispose of her body. JMO Which is why she wasn't reported till the 3rd. This person who was feeding info to the media also told a journalist the car was found in a gravel pit.... In some of the news during the time the reporters were claiming SA to be the last stop, when the Calumet Sheriff wasnt even saying as much.........

Posted below the article about the Gravel Pit.

Ed Culhane, Post-Crescent staff writer 2:38 p.m. CST January 7, 2016
Halbach's fate unknown after vehicle located in gravel pit
Teresa Halbach

(Photo: File/AP)

This story was originally publish by the Post-Crescent on Nov. 5, 2005.

MISHICOT — Law enforcement officials found the vehicle of a missing St. John woman Saturday in a rural Manitowoc County gravel pit, but were tight-lipped about Teresa Halbach's fate.

The 25-year-old's Toyota RAV4 was found on Steven Avery's property in an area where salvaged vehicles are kept. Avery was convicted in a 1985 sexual assault and exonerated by DNA evidence after spending 18 years in prison.

"We had information that the car was on this property. We got a search warrant and did in fact find the car," said Calumet County Dist. Atty. Kenneth Kratz during a press conference Saturday night at the Mishicot Fire Department.

When questioned by reporters, Manitowoc and Calumet county officials would not answer whether they had found Halbach, if the search for her had been called off or if Avery was a suspect in her disappearance.

When contacted after the press conference, Teresa's brother, Mike, said the family is waiting for more information.

"What they said is pretty much what we know," he said from the Calumet County home of his parents, Tom and Karen Halbach. "We would like to thank everyone who has helped us out — the volunteer searchers and the police."

The search of the Avery property was continuing and other search warrants were being sought, Kratz said.

Calumet County Sheriff Gerald Pagel said his department has been named the lead investigator in the case and would be assisted by the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, the Wisconsin State Patrol, the Wisconsin Crime Lab and the State Department of Criminal Investigation. Pagel indicated he would hold another press conference at 1 p.m. today to give an update on the case.

Avery, who spoke freely with police and reporters on Friday and Saturday, said that on Monday Teresa Halbach photographed a van he was selling, collected the fee and left.

Halbach, a 25-year-old freelance photographer who was working for Auto Trader Magazine, was reported missing by her parents at 4 p.m. Thursday. Her boss at Auto Trader called the family after she missed work Tuesday and Wednesday.

Avery told the Herald Times Reporter newspaper in Manitowoc Saturday that he has "no idea" what happened to Halbach.

"I don't know what happened to her," he said in a telephone interview from his father's vacation property near Crivitz. "That's the honest to God truth. I just wish they'd find her, so we'd know what really happened."

Avery said Saturday that Halbach has been to his home about 15 times in the last year to take photos of his vehicles for Auto Trader. "It was always just 'hi, how ya' doing,' that kind of thing," Avery said. "It was just business."

Avery watched televised accounts of the investigation at his property while gathered with family members at his father's cabin.

"I certainly didn't want to be on the news again," he said. "If I can help, I'll help. That's just the way I am. I don't know why this stuff happens to me."

Avery was convicted in 1985 and sentenced to 32 years in prison for raping a woman on a Lake Michigan beach. When DNA evidence cleared him in 2003, the story attracted national attention. In 2004, the Wisconsin Claims Board awarded Avery $25,000 plus attorney fees for the wrongful imprisonment.

In the 1985 case, police zeroed in on Avery only hours after the victim reported the crime. He was a neighbor of the deputy who interviewed the victim and was on bond awaiting trial for a charge of reckless endangerment after allegedly trying to force a woman into his vehicle.

On Saturday morning, Halbach's family and friends searched between Manitowoc and Hilbert for any sign of the woman or her vehicle.

When she was last seen, Halbach was wearing blue jeans, a white button-down shirt and a summer jacket. She is described as 5-foot-6, weighing 135 pounds. She has light brown hair and brown eyes.

Pagel said if anyone has information about the case, they should call 920-849-2335.

Reporters Amy Weaver and Pat Pankratz from the Herald Times Reporter contributed to this story.
 
You know who knew they had time. The person deleting her VM. He was doing so to keep the family from worrying before he could dispose of her body. JMO Which is why she wasn't reported till the 3rd. This person who was feeding info to the media also told a journalist the car was found in a gravel pit.... In some of the news during the time the reporters were claiming SA to be the last stop, when the Calumet Sheriff wasnt even saying as much.........

Posted below the article about the Gravel Pit.

Ed Culhane, Post-Crescent staff writer 2:38 p.m. CST January 7, 2016
Halbach's fate unknown after vehicle located in gravel pit
Teresa Halbach

(Photo: File/AP)

This story was originally publish by the Post-Crescent on Nov. 5, 2005.

MISHICOT — Law enforcement officials found the vehicle of a missing St. John woman Saturday in a rural Manitowoc County gravel pit, but were tight-lipped about Teresa Halbach's fate.

The 25-year-old's Toyota RAV4 was found on Steven Avery's property in an area where salvaged vehicles are kept. Avery was convicted in a 1985 sexual assault and exonerated by DNA evidence after spending 18 years in prison.

"We had information that the car was on this property. We got a search warrant and did in fact find the car," said Calumet County Dist. Atty. Kenneth Kratz during a press conference Saturday night at the Mishicot Fire Department.

When questioned by reporters, Manitowoc and Calumet county officials would not answer whether they had found Halbach, if the search for her had been called off or if Avery was a suspect in her disappearance.

When contacted after the press conference, Teresa's brother, Mike, said the family is waiting for more information.

"What they said is pretty much what we know," he said from the Calumet County home of his parents, Tom and Karen Halbach. "We would like to thank everyone who has helped us out — the volunteer searchers and the police."

The search of the Avery property was continuing and other search warrants were being sought, Kratz said.

Calumet County Sheriff Gerald Pagel said his department has been named the lead investigator in the case and would be assisted by the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department, the Wisconsin State Patrol, the Wisconsin Crime Lab and the State Department of Criminal Investigation. Pagel indicated he would hold another press conference at 1 p.m. today to give an update on the case.

Avery, who spoke freely with police and reporters on Friday and Saturday, said that on Monday Teresa Halbach photographed a van he was selling, collected the fee and left.

Halbach, a 25-year-old freelance photographer who was working for Auto Trader Magazine, was reported missing by her parents at 4 p.m. Thursday. Her boss at Auto Trader called the family after she missed work Tuesday and Wednesday.

Avery told the Herald Times Reporter newspaper in Manitowoc Saturday that he has "no idea" what happened to Halbach.

"I don't know what happened to her," he said in a telephone interview from his father's vacation property near Crivitz. "That's the honest to God truth. I just wish they'd find her, so we'd know what really happened."

Avery said Saturday that Halbach has been to his home about 15 times in the last year to take photos of his vehicles for Auto Trader. "It was always just 'hi, how ya' doing,' that kind of thing," Avery said. "It was just business."

Avery watched televised accounts of the investigation at his property while gathered with family members at his father's cabin.

"I certainly didn't want to be on the news again," he said. "If I can help, I'll help. That's just the way I am. I don't know why this stuff happens to me."

Avery was convicted in 1985 and sentenced to 32 years in prison for raping a woman on a Lake Michigan beach. When DNA evidence cleared him in 2003, the story attracted national attention. In 2004, the Wisconsin Claims Board awarded Avery $25,000 plus attorney fees for the wrongful imprisonment.

In the 1985 case, police zeroed in on Avery only hours after the victim reported the crime. He was a neighbor of the deputy who interviewed the victim and was on bond awaiting trial for a charge of reckless endangerment after allegedly trying to force a woman into his vehicle.

On Saturday morning, Halbach's family and friends searched between Manitowoc and Hilbert for any sign of the woman or her vehicle.

When she was last seen, Halbach was wearing blue jeans, a white button-down shirt and a summer jacket. She is described as 5-foot-6, weighing 135 pounds. She has light brown hair and brown eyes.

Pagel said if anyone has information about the case, they should call 920-849-2335.

Reporters Amy Weaver and Pat Pankratz from the Herald Times Reporter contributed to this story.

BBM

Who gave Kratz and crew information about the car being in the Avery Salvage yard ? Might that be related to the headlights/taillights spotted by Chuck and SA on Thursday 11/3 ?
 
BBM

Who gave Kratz and crew information about the car being in the Avery Salvage yard ? Might that be related to the headlights/taillights spotted by Chuck and SA on Thursday 11/3 ?

I think it was just the wrong information... wrong wording. The information they got was from Pam Sturm. They make it sound like they didn't see the vehicle until after the search warrant was issued, which is also not true. They responded to Pam's call.... Manitowoc arrived pretty quick after... Calumet county officers arrived 30-60 minutes later.... Wiegert didn't get the search warrant until 3-4pm IIRC

I have read other articles that said "they received a tip", and I've read that it was found in a "quarry".
 
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