New to this case and new to the forum

[leslievernon]

fly larvae on land: you are right i think.
BUT, the time the bodies did lay there on the ditchbank with cops already there... wound not change lividity and rigir mortis IMO. we can debate that until the sparks fly but since none of us is a true medical expert let's say we disagree (also on blood clotted hair) we just have a complete different look on HOW that whole crime happened, hence the different opinions.

you said:
"My main point is this: All the bindings were applied after all the victims were already unconscious, but before the entire attack was completed."

imo when the perp came back to the initial crime scne, the boys were dead. i think animals already predated on them, boys laying in a manhole unconscious, like a human pile, sorry dont mean to be morbid.., but they just slowly died there. water in a manhole would also rise... might explain the drowning happened there.


ALSO, why is there a shoe imprint on one of the victims head... not coming from a boot (echols and baldwin wore boots)?

 

[leslievernon]

ok a few corrections here of my own post

1. after the bodies were found they laid there for ca. 1 or 2 hours. a re-location of lividity could not be possible. according to the police video that you mentioned, all 3 bodies laid sideway, with their right buttock on the earth.

2. after the fly lays her eggs, it takes a few hours, until it hatches.

also, a partial print (unclear if thumb or toe) was found at the ditch bank, indicating someone climbed up at the ditch. it doesnt belong to any of the police, or wm3, or anybody else.

 

[Userid]

The water would affect lividity. The fly larvae was laid while they were on the banks.

The hair also clotted as it dried, while the bodies in the bags and in transport to the morgue. Peretti didn't examine the bodies immediately, once they were found. If memory serves, he examined them at least 24 hours later.

I thought the shoe imprint was that of a boot, so your last question confuses me. Either way, JM was wearing sneakers. There was a shoe/boot imprint on the back of one of the victims heads, as if his head was being pushed into the mud.

Here's the rub: if the "initial site" was a manhole, it would have had to have been a manhole close to the creek. All of those were checked. Also, all of those manholes were close enough to the creek for the killer to transport the bodies without having to bind the limbs -- this would have taken more time and again, it would have made transportation actually harder. That's my opinion.

 

[Userid]

Yes, the partial thumb print was recovered from the side of the creek, as if someone was "in the creek" and put his hand on the side of it upon entering/exiting. And yes, that print could not be attributed to anyone, including any step father/father, in addition to the WM3 -- so we're back to square one all the same.

There were two shoe prints recovered at the scene (in the ground), that also were never attributed to anyone.

 

[leslievernon]

yep..
and beyond our little dispute here these are all good points for those new to the case... echols wore boots, baldwin too, jessie i guess wore some kind of sneakers.. i mean think about it.

generally... it would be easier if you have some bodies in a house, i mean... the fact that all this happened outside.. and in dirty water... makes it so much worse. reg. evidence and so on.

 

[leslievernon]

the water would have dissolved the blood in the hair... when the bodies then were put back on land by police... there was no more blood that could have dried/clotted. jmo. but i could be wrong.
how could water go against gravity.. i don't know.

the shoe imprint on the back of the victims head: damn it theres nothing in my summary. well let's both search for that picture provided iirc by brent turvey, remember him? it gotta be somewhere on the net still. then we'll see if it's from a sneaker or boot.


ETA: the manholes - you have to read what i said: the police did not find anything in any manhole there because the killer MOVED the bodies most probably between the time the last searchers went home and slater and brodsky came.

 

[Userid]

the water would have dissolved the blood in the hair... when the bodies then were put back on land by police... there was no more blood that could have dried/clotted. jmo. but i could be wrong.
how could water go against gravity.. i don't know.

the shoe imprint on the back of the victims head: damn it theres nothing in my summary. well let's both search for that picture provided iirc by brent turvey, remember him? it gotta be somewhere on the net still. then we'll see if it's from a sneaker or boot.


ETA: the manholes - you have to read what i said: the police did not find anything in any manhole there because the killer MOVED the bodies most probably between the time the last searchers went home and slater and brodsky came.

Don't believe that's accurate, respectfully. The wounds were still bleeding after they were recovered. There was blood recovered on the ground were the bodies were laid -- you can see this in the luminol illustration. These blood stains on the ground were documented by police and separated from other blood stains that were found in the area as a whole (i.e. that didn't come when the bodies were lain on the ditch bank after they were recovered, but from another time).

Yes, Brent Turvey, very strange case. Many hold him as a "joke," including Jim Clemente and Laura Richards -- who, in my opinion, aren't much better in all honesty. I will say, I do agree with some of Turvey's analysis.

I've never seen the actual "photo" of the shoe/boot print on the back of the head. I've seen the 2 shoe prints recovered on the ground. I was on an old board where they said it was a "boot" print, but they could have been mistaken; not sure.

I understand your manhole theory -- I just think it's unrealistic to think that the killer would have been able to completely clean the manhole, assuming animals were feeding on the bodies in an area other than were the bodies would be found -- that would be next to impossible. Even near creek, the killer still left evidence behind -- it wasn't completely spotless. He would have done the same thing if the bodies were in a manhole.

 

[Alyssa Edwards]

Hey all , just another update, I have finished reading the The 500. Wow that was a tough read! So I’m working my way through Callahan and have come across the photos of the “devil made me do it” car. Was there any explanations on this ? Who may have written it etc? Sorry a boy all the questions, I have so many!

 

[leslievernon]

@Userid reg. the shoe impression pic:
you never? was it not shown in PL2...? i guess so. on the blackboard it made the round, too.. a tennis shoe, most probably. size 9 or 9 and a half iirc.

that with the blood on the head/in the hair.. they were "buried underwater" as it seems so i don't know how profusely they bled initially, what the water does, air, temperature, how long they were in the ditch (i still claim it wasn't 19 hours straight)... maybe i should have said diluting.

well a manhole is a manhole, you'd find some things there, it sure is smelly... why would he clean? no need to. everything the killer did initially was in complete hurry and improvised cause he had to play his role of worried father... only then.. at night, when there was a bit of a calming down.. he did all that - binding, transporting.

at some point in may, very early, gitchell said in an article that they found something in a manhole. there was no follow up article.
yes, definitely, they checked it out. but the bodies just weren't there anymore.

 

[leslievernon]

oh man.... i just came across the autopsy pics while searching for the shoe impression picture.... this is just too tough, how those boys bodies actually looked like.

i'm gonna see if i can find PL2 somewhere online but the picture had to be from turvey's files cause he mentioned it in his report. maybe i better search for that.

 

[leslievernon]

thank god, here it is. turvey's report at callahan.

excerpt:
"Another unidentified pattern compression abrasion can be found on the back of Steve Branch's head. The source of this injury caused a 3? inch fracture at the base of the skull with multiple extension fractures that terminate in the foramen magnum (that's the hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord connects to the brain). Upon close examination, this pattern injury is consistent with compression made from footwear. Again, without better photos supplied to the examiner showing a variety of angles, it's very difficult to make a positive identification of any kind. But the pattern is consistent with a footwear impression, and would require a footwear impression expert to analyze and make an informed, competent determination."

i don't wanna spread false information and because it was so long ago, i claim it was from a tennis shoe and not a boot. but i can't prove it right now of course.

 

[Userid]

Hey all , just another update, I have finished reading the The 500. Wow that was a tough read! So I’m working my way through Callahan and have come across the photos of the “devil made me do it” car. Was there any explanations on this ? Who may have written it etc? Sorry a boy all the questions, I have so many!

Alyssa -- wow, I am thoroughly impressed with the fact you brought up the "Devil Made Me Do It" car. This is something not even long time followers of the case ever bring up. I remember bringing this up on an old board. I have an assignment for you:

Look at the "ME" that is written on the car very, very closely....

Now, look at the "ME" that was freshly carved on a tree in the crime scene where the bodies of the boys were found (photo 196):
"ME" - Carving on tree

See any similarities? In my opinion, there are extreme similarities with the way the "ME" is written on both the tree and the car; and this is the reason why the police took the time to photograph the car at the time. There was never an official explanation given as to why they photographed the car, but to me, that is the only reason that makes sense. It's not because "Devil," it's because of the word "ME."

 

[leslievernon]

WTF now maybe it's just the *advertiser censored* heat thats frying my brain... i know the carving but NOT that car...
tell me more about the car, Userid. please.

 

[Userid]

@Userid reg. the shoe impression pic:
you never? was it not shown in PL2...? i guess so. on the blackboard it made the round, too.. a tennis shoe, most probably. size 9 or 9 and a half iirc.

that with the blood on the head/in the hair.. they were "buried underwater" as it seems so i don't know how profusely they bled initially, what the water does, air, temperature, how long they were in the ditch (i still claim it wasn't 19 hours straight)... maybe i should have said diluting.

well a manhole is a manhole, you'd find some things there, it sure is smelly... why would he clean? no need to. everything the killer did initially was in complete hurry and improvised cause he had to play his role of worried father... only then.. at night, when there was a bit of a calming down.. he did all that - binding, transporting.

at some point in may, very early, gitchell said in an article that they found something in a manhole. there was no follow up article.
yes, definitely, they checked it out. but the bodies just weren't there anymore.

He'd clean the manhole to get rid of any evidence and the fact that there would be blood all over, etc. Also, if the cops came across a bloody manhole -- before they found the bodies -- they would automatically know that the bodies were in the area. It's the same reason why the killer wouldn't just leave the bikes near the area were the bodies were found.

I disagree that everything was "hurried." The killer meticulously stuck each article of article around sticks and dug them into the creek. There are conflicting reports that he did the same with the bindings; he jammed them with sticks into the mud, most likely to keep the bodies "weighed" down. He took the time to bind the boys. He took the time to wipe down the east bank shelf. He took the time to dispose of the bikes, in a completely separate section. He took the time to get into the creek itself, as opposed to just throwing in the items and the bodies; and ensured they were well hidden (which he did a good job of, with the exception of one shoe that eventually became loose and surfaced). All of this would have taken time.

You're going by what TH said when he claimed the boys were "buried underwater." It was never definitively proved that they were "buried." They were pushed down into the mud -- yes -- but "buried" was never substantiated.

You have a link to the Gitchell article by chance?

You just said you came across some of the autopsy photos. In some photos, you can clearly see that the bodies are still bleeding profusely on the sheets; hence, the dried hair, etc.

 

[Userid]

WTF now maybe it's just the *advertiser censored* heat thats frying my brain... i know the carving but NOT that car...
tell me more about the car, Userid. please.

Photos 5, 7, and 8 have the clearest view. The way the M and E are written is the exact same writing style that was used on the tree at the crime scene.

Airport Auto Salvage - Photos

"ME" - Carving on tree

 

[leslievernon]

the gitchell article - not too important. maybe they found clothes from a bum... who knows. it might be on callahan in the news articles section. can't find it right now on google, sorry i'm just too lazy today.

reg. autopsy: no... worse. close-ups of the faces etc. omg r.i.p. i still doubt that any human could have done that. i know the world's crazy but...
but yes you're right with the blood.

"buried underwater", yeah.. he said it. not like 6 feet under.. but, concealed. you gotta admit this is a strange quote considering nobody else ever said it like that.

 

[Userid]

thank god, here it is. turvey's report at callahan.

excerpt:
"Another unidentified pattern compression abrasion can be found on the back of Steve Branch's head. The source of this injury caused a 3? inch fracture at the base of the skull with multiple extension fractures that terminate in the foramen magnum (that's the hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord connects to the brain). Upon close examination, this pattern injury is consistent with compression made from footwear. Again, without better photos supplied to the examiner showing a variety of angles, it's very difficult to make a positive identification of any kind. But the pattern is consistent with a footwear impression, and would require a footwear impression expert to analyze and make an informed, competent determination."

i don't wanna spread false information and because it was so long ago, i claim it was from a tennis shoe and not a boot. but i can't prove it right now of course.

"Footwear" is vague. Boots are footwear, are they not?

I remember SB's grandpa being more specific. Granted, he isn't an expert, but he did view the body of his grandson first hand:

"Jackie Hicks, the grandfather of Stevie Branch on Page 134 of the book, The Blood of Innocents:

“Some son of a has done a number on this baby with a pair of combat boots or engineer’s boots,” Hicks told himself, then others."

Here is the link below, which by the way, is another amazing source on the case. I don't run or condone clicking any links within the link, so if you do explore, click at your own risk:

February – 2018 – thewm3revelations

 

[leslievernon]

thank you.

i think i found it but i am not sure - is this the footwear impression pic?
if it is... then i have no idea anymore what the hell kind of shoe might have caused that.
anyway it is cruel...

but i think, reading jacki hicks sr. statements, that it is all a combination of violent force by man, and animal bites. that doesnt change that the shock was enormous seeing that.

 

[Userid]

thank you.

i think i found it but i am not sure - is this the footwear impression pic?
if it is... then i have no idea anymore what the hell kind of shoe might have caused that.
anyway it is cruel...

but i think, reading jacki hicks sr. statements, that it is all a combination of violent force by man, and animal bites. that doesnt change that the shock was enormous seeing that.

Thanks to you also -- I've never seen that particular picture. That could be; looks like the imprint of a heel of a shoe.

I respect your view that some of the wounds are animals -- it's possible. I'm more inclined to think that, if an animal was involved, that the bites were minimal. I feel like a knife was definitely used in this crime, from the slashes found on the scalp on MM, and due to the fact that the lace used to bind him was cut in half with a knife. So, a knife was at least present during the crime, and I imagine it was used on the victims. Moreover, I feel it would have been the main source for the gouging injuries displayed, including those on CB and particularly SB.

Ironic tidbit: did you know that Peretti is an expert on turtles, including during the time he examined the bodies? He has bred turtles and tortoises, and has always had a love for the reptiles. Just always found that ironic. Also, he is still in forensics to this day, but has said he will retire soon; and that once he does, he's planning on writing a book about this case himself, in order to finally be able to defend and expand on his original findings. I can't wait for that book, in all honesty, since I feel he was harshly and completely unfairly dragged through the mud by some supporters and the movie film makers.

 

[dogmatica]

ok, so you think they did it. i have no problem with that.

i think that steven's stepfather caught the kids at their secret hideout in the woods there.. things get out of control, and he had to kill all 3 in order not to get caught. period.

and what looks like mutilation, was done by animals, because the bodies lay hidden, most possibly in a manhole until dark, but still accesable to carnivores.

yeah, call me crazy but now it all comes back to me.. yes. i think it happened like that.

You have absolutely no evidence or even a reason to come to that conclusion. That is nothing more than wild speculation that completely ignores the actual facts of the case. Anyone can just make up a wild story and claim that's what happened. Your farcical tale has zero bearing on the reality of what happened, as was proven by 2 sets of convictions for the WM3.