GUILTY New Zealand - Dr. Lauren Dickason, 40, charged w/killing her 3 young daughters, Timaru, 16 Sep 2021

[cjm11]

FDA approves first pill for postpartum depression

In trials, the treatment improved depression symptoms among new mothers as early as three days after they started the medication.

www.nbcnews.com

This looks very useful.

A snippet from the article.

Zuranolone is a neuroactive steroid — a synthetic hormone that gets synthesized in the brain and helps regulate mood and behavior. The drug acts on GABA receptors, chemical messengers thought to play a role in regulating fear, anxiety and stress. Studies have found that people with depression have abnormally low GABA levels.

Osborne said the receptors that stimulate the release of GABA change significantly during the postpartum period, in part because the body produces lots of reproductive hormones.

 

[vaporlass]

After it happened, Graham Dickason told police then that his wife was “not a nurturing mother” according to the NZ Herald. Later, in court he changed that story. This story reminds me of Andrea Yates. Her husband knew she was having issues, too. I think Graham feels responsible for not listening to his wife. He told her, “I just want you to enjoy being a mother,” which indicates she did not enjoy being a mother. She lost her only biological daughter at 18 weeks, which is why she turned to donor eggs. He said in the last few weeks she resented how the children “preferred” him.
It sounds like she did not bond with these girls, though I believe she tried. She definitely had mental issues, insecurities and resentment.
More rigid psychological testing should be done for women before IVF, I’ve learned a lot reading here that I did not know. This is a heartbreaking case, gut wrenching. I think she should go to prison for the rest of her life.

 

[Sararara]

After it happened, Graham Dickason told police then that his wife was “not a nurturing mother” according to the NZ Herald. Later, in court he changed that story. This story reminds me of Andrea Yates. Her husband knew she was having issues, too. I think Graham feels responsible for not listening to his wife. He told her, “I just want you to enjoy being a mother,” which indicates she did not enjoy being a mother. She lost her only biological daughter at 18 weeks, which is why she turned to donor eggs. He said in the last few weeks she resented how the children “preferred” him.
It sounds like she did not bond with these girls, though I believe she tried. She definitely had mental issues, insecurities and resentment.
More rigid psychological testing should be done for women before IVF, I’ve learned a lot reading here that I did not know. This is a heartbreaking case, gut wrenching. I think she should go to prison for the rest of her life.

There is soooo much that is different about Andrea Yates though. She had multiple hospital admissions for schizophrenia, previous suicide attempts, and psychotic episodes. For her, I can see how this was eventually ruled insanity. Reading that case actually made me a whole lot more sure that this one is murder.

 

[Sararara]

See all of this from Wikipedia. We do not see anything of a similar scope in this case.

"Following the birth of her fourth child, Luke, Yates' depression resurfaced. On June 16, 1999, Rusty found her shaking and chewing her fingers. The next day, she attempted suicide by overdosing on pills, leading to her being hospitalized and prescribed antidepressants. Soon after her release, Yates begged Rusty to let her die as she held a knife up to her neck. Once again hospitalized, she was given a plethora of medications, including Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug. Yates' condition improved immediately, and she was prescribed it upon her release. After this incident, Rusty moved the family into a small house for the sake of her health. She appeared temporarily stabilized.[8]

In July 1999, Yates had a nervous breakdown, which culminated in two suicide attempts and two psychiatric hospitalizations that summer. She was subsequently diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.[9]

Yates's first psychiatrist, Dr. Eileen Starbranch, testified that she urged her and Rusty not to have any more children, as it would "guarantee future psychotic depression." They conceived their fifth and final child approximately seven weeks after her discharge.[10] Yates stopped taking Haldol in March 2000 and gave birth to her daughter, Mary, nine months later.[11]

Yates seemed to be coping well until the death of her father on March 12, 2001. She then stopped taking medication, mutilated herself, read the Bible feverishly, and stopped feeding Mary.[8] She became so incapacitated that she required immediate hospitalization. On April 1, 2001, Yates came under the care of Dr. Mohammed Saeed; she was treated and released."
Features that are worth noting
Clear link between the emergence of psychotic symptoms and child-birth
Clear presence of psychotic symptoms before the killings took place
Multiple episodes of hospitalization
Multiple episodes where she was unable to take care of herself
Previous suicide attempts and self-harm

LD's history just looks way too tidy in comparison. The only disorder for which there is evidence is the depression (and possibly anxiety). There are also some signs of a personality disorder but those would not amount to an insanity defence.

IMO the amount of publicity around this case is evidence of the horrifying betrayal that has been committed here- by a sentient and normal-seeming mother. We have had infanticide cases in New Zealand before that flew under the radar- because the mothers were clearly in the throes of hallucinations and believed they had to sacrifice their baby to the devil or other things of that nature. People were much less interested in those. It sounds like I'm being flippant- but really, that was more or less the situation.

This one is darker- IMO- because there is real evidence of malice. And malice disturbs us, more than craziness.

Andrea Yates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[silvercrown]

There is soooo much that is different about Andrea Yates though. She had multiple hospital admissions for schizophrenia, previous suicide attempts, and psychotic episodes. For her, I can see how this was eventually ruled insanity. Reading that case whole lot more sure that this o

Yeah, i don’t think the cases draw too many similarities either. Yates is a whole different ball game. She had diagnosed postpartum psychosis, was hospitalised numerous times and attempted suicide amongst other things.
Lauren’s case doesn’t meet this threshold imo

 

[Charlot123]

To explain her actions in the light of the weather, perfectionism about her house… baffles me. Perfectionism speaks to narcissism.
Unless insane, she’s a murderer. She did what she did knowingly. Cannot imagine even thinking for five seconds about how hard it all was for her. Harder than walking out of your house and taking yourself away from your kids?

She is a murderer either way, insane or not. She planned to kill them because she did not want another woman to mother her kids. Whether she planned to kill herself is now a huge question. So is her frame of mind before she did it.

Some other things are baffling. LD said that her husband returned too soon. Did she not expect him to come from the work function much later?

 

[annpats]

Don't forget she had to pack up and move to a new country. There was also an isolation period right before the move at Graham’s mother's.

That's ALOT of changes and isolation. Lauren also had severe anxiety.

Oh, so that's OK then?

No, it isn't!

They are all excuses, not mitigating factors for strangling your 3 children to death!

There are no mitigating factors in this case, however her defence are trying to make it that way.

 

[silvercrown]

Oh, so that's OK then?

No, it isn't!

They are all excuses, not mitigating factors for strangling your 3 children to death!

There are no mitigating factors in this case, however her defence are trying to make it that way.

Respectfully, I don’t see anyone saying it’s okay because she had to stay with her mother in law and quarantine (or that her yard was cold and shady, or that she wasn’t working, or that she’d just relocated, or she hated the suburb she lived in, or she’d had IVF or whatever else we’ve been discussing).

IMO People are just speculating on and commenting on the (perceived) life stressors that LD was experiencing at the time, in conjunction with her history of episodes of mental illness.

Isn’t it human nature to wonder why and how someone could commit such an atrocity? It’s not a very ‘commonly’ occurring crime, so I think commenters are trying to understand and get their head around wtf was going on in her life which made her decide to kill her beautiful kids.

Tldr - imo the commentary around things going on in her life not excuses, just trying to understand how/why.

 

[annpats]

I think commenters are trying to understand and get their head around wtf was going on in her life which made her decide to kill her beautiful kids.

Yes, I can understand that, but the bottom line is, there was nothing going on in her life that made her decide to kill her 3 children. Other people have similar life experiences and stresses.

So maybe suicide I could understand.

But not triple homicide of minors.

 

[silvercrown]

Yes, I can understand that, but the bottom line is, there was nothing going on in her life that made her decide to kill her 3 children. Other people have similar life experiences and stresses.

So maybe suicide I could understand.

But not triple homicide of minors.

Well she did kill them so obviously something was going on. Murderers aren’t usually the non psychopathic, non psychotic type (unless under the influence of drugs perhaps). Also the human experience varies greatly. Stressors for one person may not even be on someone else’s radar. Something menial to you or I might be enough to send another person over the edge.

On the other hand there are plenty of reasons why another person with similar life experiences and stresses doesn’t murder their families.

Again, factors in her life aren’t excuses to why she did it. Considering none of us know her or have any intimate knowledge of her psychiatric wellbeing (or not) it’s all just speculation and discussion and wonderment. It is for me anyway. I’ve stated a few times I think she’ll be found guilty and deservedly so.

The suicide aspect you mention… it’s claimed she did try to commit suicide. Personally I am at odds as to whether or not I believe it was a genuine attempt.

<modsnip>

 

[MuddyTires]

Dear God? Is there one?

What is going on, world?

Gorgeous children! Brilliant parents.

Is there something we don't know?

All i can think of at the moment, is that the combination of high stress jobs as doctors during covid, having 2 year old twins and a six year old not in school, moving to another country, just coming out of quarantine, all without their usual nanny who had been with the children since birth - and maybe even some of the insecurities that sometimes strike those turning 40 years old...
imo, speculation.

Familial murder dates back all the way to Cain and Abel.

Infanticide has been a consistent part of the human condition since the Stone Age.

So has filicide. The Bible tells of Jephthah sacrificing his daughter, and there are innumerable high profile examples of filicide throughout history — from ancient times all the way through today.

 

[minusfour]

The stressors that LD was facing were pretty significant, and it seems that her personality traits- the anxiety, and perfectionism for example would have hindered her ability to cope. It is clear that the situation was beyond her capacity to manage. Whether others have coped with the same stressors, or even more stressors can't really be measured in a meaningful way because we can't measure an individual's grit or resilience accurately. (My mother was a single mother to four little girls, and had little to no support- we all survived, she coped, somehow, but I wouldn't wish our childhoods, or those years for my mother, on my worst enemy. ) LD had, by getting through a medical degree and working as a GP, reveals herself to be pretty intelligent, hard working, and persistent. I think we can extrapolate that she was previously of good character-criminal convictions are considered seriously by medical registration boards around the world.

I am still on the fence. She killed those girls, and having to live with that, and with herself, I think would be a very difficult thing to do.

I forgive my Mother for some of the more awful things that happened when we were children, because I understand that she had found herself in a situation that was beyond her capacity to cope. She was a strong, intelligent woman, and she did love us.

I believe everyone has a breaking point. Tragically, LD found hers.

 

[JerseyGirl]

https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-and-courts/lauren-dickason-trial-she-believed-children-are-better-off-dead-says-defences-forensic-psychiatrist-f997b1fb-3fbd-407d-867a-9841b0b72bc2

Lauren Dickason trial: ‘She believed children are better off dead,’ says defence’s forensic psychiatrist​

 

[Catmommy]

https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-and-courts/lauren-dickason-trial-she-believed-children-are-better-off-dead-says-defences-forensic-psychiatrist-f997b1fb-3fbd-407d-867a-9841b0b72bc2

Lauren Dickason trial: ‘She believed children are better off dead,’ says defence’s forensic psychiatrist​

And that is EXACTLY what the defense is paid for. Experts can always be bought to support either side. Always.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

There is soooo much that is different about Andrea Yates though. She had multiple hospital admissions for schizophrenia, previous suicide attempts, and psychotic episodes. For her, I can see how this was eventually ruled insanity. Reading that case actually made me a whole lot more sure that this one is murder.

i really do not have an opinion yet, but I appreciate yours and how you have stated it.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

See all of this from Wikipedia. We do not see anything of a similar scope in this case.

"Following the birth of her fourth child, Luke, Yates' depression resurfaced. On June 16, 1999, Rusty found her shaking and chewing her fingers. The next day, she attempted suicide by overdosing on pills, leading to her being hospitalized and prescribed antidepressants. Soon after her release, Yates begged Rusty to let her die as she held a knife up to her neck. Once again hospitalized, she was given a plethora of medications, including Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug. Yates' condition improved immediately, and she was prescribed it upon her release. After this incident, Rusty moved the family into a small house for the sake of her health. She appeared temporarily stabilized.[8]

In July 1999, Yates had a nervous breakdown, which culminated in two suicide attempts and two psychiatric hospitalizations that summer. She was subsequently diagnosed with postpartum psychosis.[9]

Yates's first psychiatrist, Dr. Eileen Starbranch, testified that she urged her and Rusty not to have any more children, as it would "guarantee future psychotic depression." They conceived their fifth and final child approximately seven weeks after her discharge.[10] Yates stopped taking Haldol in March 2000 and gave birth to her daughter, Mary, nine months later.[11]

Yates seemed to be coping well until the death of her father on March 12, 2001. She then stopped taking medication, mutilated herself, read the Bible feverishly, and stopped feeding Mary.[8] She became so incapacitated that she required immediate hospitalization. On April 1, 2001, Yates came under the care of Dr. Mohammed Saeed; she was treated and released."
Features that are worth noting
Clear link between the emergence of psychotic symptoms and child-birth
Clear presence of psychotic symptoms before the killings took place
Multiple episodes of hospitalization
Multiple episodes where she was unable to take care of herself
Previous suicide attempts and self-harm

LD's history just looks way too tidy in comparison. The only disorder for which there is evidence is the depression (and possibly anxiety). There are also some signs of a personality disorder but those would not amount to an insanity defence.

IMO the amount of publicity around this case is evidence of the horrifying betrayal that has been committed here- by a sentient and normal-seeming mother. We have had infanticide cases in New Zealand before that flew under the radar- because the mothers were clearly in the throes of hallucinations and believed they had to sacrifice their baby to the devil or other things of that nature. People were much less interested in those. It sounds like I'm being flippant- but really, that was more or less the situation.

This one is darker- IMO- because there is real evidence of malice. And malice disturbs us, more than craziness.

Great final line!

 

[JerseyGirl]

Live: Defence psychiatrist gives evidence in Lauren Dickason murder trial

Two months before the trial, Lauren Dickason told a psychiatrist for the defence she still believed she'd done the right thing.

i.stuff.co.nz

 

[Charlot123]

Here is something about her frame of mind before and after the murders and also, that she had homicidal thoughts in 2018 after the twins were born.

I don't think she is normal. Also, very morbid thinking about the future and the state of the world. LD is religious, the term "apocalyptic thinking" comes to mind. https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-an...d-crafts-6bdd7956-bcb8-440e-9788-7b030ec27b15

 

[dotr]

rbbm lengthy article

Mum should've been hospitalised for 'severe' depression - expert

Crown expert says no basis for infanticide defence.

www.nzherald.co.nz

''In my view, it was more than likely - because of her depression - that she acted in the way that she did.”

Barry-Walsh said if he had seen her the day of the alleged murders and taken her history and considered her lack of support in New Zealand he would have admitted her to a psychiatric ward.

“And if she declined treatment I would have thought she readily met the criteria for compulsory treatment under the Mental Health Act,’ he said.

“Her motive for killing the children was as part of her suicidal thinking she also felt that the children were better off dead... she was in the grips of rapidly worsening depression... not only overwhelmed by viewing the world through a negative lens... she believed killing the children was morally correct at the time.''
...............

“She said she wished she had stayed in South Africa.”

Dickason claimed she told at least 15 people before leaving her home country that she was “not ok”.
Barry-Walsh also said Dickason’s mental health care “wasn’t as good as it should have been” for many years.

She’d been self-medicating - a legal and common practice for doctors in South Africa - which was “never a good idea”.

''Last week, Crown prosecutor Andrew McRae alleged Dickason was an angry and frustrated woman who was “resentful of how the children stood in the way of her relationship with her husband” and killed them “methodically and purposefully, perhaps even clinically”.

 

[Kemug]

A lot is being said about her relationship with her children. I had not realised that they were all from donor eggs - so perhaps she was never able to feel that they were indeed her children.