GUILTY New Zealand - Dr. Lauren Dickason, 40, charged w/killing her 3 young daughters, Timaru, 16 Sep 2021

[Sararara]

After reading today… she’s so guilty and it’s gonna be a quick murder verdict IMO. Surprised there’s anywhere near this much debate.
Just shows how persuasive lawyers can be- but unluckily for LD her police interview has made this case very simple.

 

[silvercrown]

I agree. I see a murder verdict too. I don’t see anything put forward by the defence enough to meet the the threshold of insanity or infanticide. However, signs were there that she was a danger to the children.

Debate is important and healthy and I really appreciate everybody’s viewpoints. Cases like this are hardly ever cut and dry.

 

[Charlot123]

RSBM.
We know that she did tell him she was thinking about killing the kids. Say that is how she vented, with her history of depression and PPD, surely this would raise some serious red flags that she may very well follow through with it.

I know it would for me if my husband spoke that way. I also feel that the fact he is a doctor raises the expectation that his alarm bells should be ringing even higher. MOO.

It seems like along with all the stresses involved with the move to NZ, quarantine, new job, and marital stress that the prosecution’s psych testified to today, there was a bit of a head in the sand approach to Lauren’s mental health.

I’m sympathetic to her apparent mental health concerns and disordered thinking, but I don’t think it meets the threshold of insanity. She definitely needs psychiatric help though. I hope she has been getting it since she was arrested.

It is my understanding that Lauren complained of having “these thoughts again”. Somewhat different from a fugure of speech when someone says, “I swear I could have killed her”. Some people speak emphatically, but it is different from complaining of the dark thoughts.

Of course it is all in hindsight. Maybe at that time, Lauren wanted to speak about it, but also didn’t want to draw his attention to her state. It happens. Maybe it didn’t seem that bad.

I would hope this case could turn into a study in prevention. I am also thinking, here were two successful doctors. Probably looking at these good-looking people, with their wonderful house, missing one thing, children, no one in IVF programs, or egg donation one thought that tragedy could befell this couple?

I feel that Lauren lost so much it doesn’t matter where she ends up. Better still, in a hospital. But maybe if everyone involved in this case could have thought of one thing they’d do differently, with all current knowledge, we’d all learn something?

I have two questions. One, if there is a legal maximum to IVF cycles a woman can have?
Two, and it may sound naive, but parents can choose a lot about egg donors. Looks, even IQ. Is there any law representing the rights and protection off the eggs, or is it just quid pro quo? Should there be some protection of donated eggs and embryos?

This case is not only Lauren’s and Graham’s. With all the publicity, there may be other people now feeling horribly.

 

[silvercrown]

It is my understanding that Lauren complained of having “these thoughts again”. Somewhat different from a fugure of speech when someone says, “I swear I could have killed her”. Some people speak emphatically, but it is different from complaining of the dark thoughts.

Of course it is all in hindsight. Maybe at that time, Lauren wanted to speak about it, but also didn’t want to draw his attention to her state. It happens. Maybe it didn’t seem that bad.

I would hope this case could turn into a study in prevention. I am also thinking, here were two successful doctors. Probably looking at these good-looking people, with their wonderful house, missing one thing, children, no one in IVF programs, or egg donation one thought that tragedy could befell this couple?

I feel that Lauren lost so much it doesn’t matter where she ends up. Better still, in a hospital. But maybe if everyone involved in this case could have thought of one thing they’d do differently, with all current knowledge, we’d all learn something?

I have two questions. One, if there is a legal maximum to IVF cycles a woman can have?
Two, and it may sound naive, but parents can choose a lot about egg donors. Looks, even IQ. Is there any law representing the rights and protection off the eggs, or is it just quid pro quo? Should there be some protection of donated eggs and embryos?

This case is not only Lauren’s and Graham’s. With all the publicity, there may be other people now feeling horribly.

I agree, it wasn’t a figure of speech. The context was vastly different and she had a history of PPD and depression.

You raise some interesting questions about the egg donations and IVF. It is such a layered and nuanced case.

 

[Jw192]

"Appearing via audio-visual link, Dr Hatters-Friedman said a major disorder was not being ruled out by psychiatric professionals and the prospect of further assessment was still being monitored"

Oh my, nearly 2 years down the line, and she's been in a psychiatric unit since then and they're saying they still don't know if she has a mental disorder or not and may need more assessment???

I think her psychiatrist and defence team are playing for time and scrabbling around desperately to get her off the hook as an "evil triple-child killer".

Saying something along the lines of "Oh, well, we'll need to do further tests, we're not sure" is frankly ridiculous.

She's obviously not suffering from any known psychiatric disorders, otherwise they would have said so.

MOO.

Lauren Dickason trial: Psychiatrist questioned about diagnosis

A jury has heard how Lauren Dickason told a psychiatrist that killing her three children was "part of a package deal".

www.rnz.co.nz

Completely agree here, she knew fine well what she was doing imo

 

[dotr]

Very happy for women who finally become pregnant after trying for years without success, but 17 rounds of IVF?!
Dare one suggest that maybe sometimes Mother Nature knows best...
imo, speculation, fwiw.

 

[annpats]

Very happy for women who finally become pregnant after trying for years without success, but 17 rounds of IVF?!
Dare one suggest that maybe sometimes Mother Nature knows best...
imo, speculation, fwiw.

The British healthcare system (the NHS) only lets you have 3 rounds of IVF...anymore have to be paid for privately.
I'm unsure as to the healthcare system in South Africa, but if it was all done privately, 17 rounds of IVF must've cost a humongous amount, so there was the financial toll, along with th physical and emotional ones.

 

[dotr]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> Hopefully my comments regarding M. Nature & 17 rounds of IVF do not offend anyone.
One reason nobody seemed to have discouraged LD from trying 17x, might just be that they did not want to offend or hurt her feelings.
imo, speculation.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree, it wasn’t a figure of speech. The context was vastly different and she had a history of PPD and depression.

You raise some interesting questions about the egg donations and IVF. It is such a layered and nuanced case.

If it was not a totally closed egg donation, I would like to extend my deepest sympathy and condolences to these women.

If it was closed, think of how many egg donors might be asking themselves questions they will never know an answer to. In any case, a very difficult situation for many.

About the rights of embryos - I think the laws are lax, differ from one country to another, and better practices are long overdue. Egg (and embryo) donation is a great, altruistic gesture, but it is unfair that immigration requires extensive proof of mental and physical health, and egg donation is probably is much less regulated.

 

[Charlot123]

Very happy for women who finally become pregnant after trying for years without success, but 17 rounds of IVF?!
Dare one suggest that maybe sometimes Mother Nature knows best...
imo, speculation, fwiw.

While IVF is one of the greatest advancements of the XX century, some overused it. There are still no laws in place after the octuplets case, to my surprise, but there at least are recommendations limiting the amount of embryo transfers.

Maximum Number of Embryos to be Transferred in Assisted Reproductive Technologies cycle: Ethics Opinion

Prevention of multiple pregnancies is of utmost importance as with multiple pregnancy-assisted reproductive technologies results shifts from success to complications. There is an increase in the maternal and neonatal morbidity and mortality with occurrence ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here are recommendations on the number of IVF cycles

How Many Times Should I Try IVF? - Path Fertility

Read More

pathfertility.com

(It has little to do with Mother Nature and all, with biology and statistics.) Clomid , used for ovarian stimulation, increases risk of seizures. Lupron, not so much, but weight gain and mood swings are common. I don’t know about the newest medications, but maternal psychological health has to be studied in IVF.

All of it ends with issues of medical ethics. Ask yourselves, how many of us would risk own mental health and the unknown effects on the newborns? I totally imagine how hard these IVFs were on Lauren; I see some obsessiveness there. But she wanted to become a mother and could pay for expensive treatments. What about doctors who agreed to it? What about her psychiatrist? Her husband, a doctor?

How far do we go till enough is enough?

 

[JerseyGirl]

Live: Forensic psychiatrist to give evidence in Dickason trial

Erik Monasterio tells court that Lauren Dickason’s depressive symptoms were not severe enough that she did not know what she was doing was morally wrong.

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[kiwi50]

Trial adjourned until next week, a juror is ill.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[caradana]

Confident that she and her husband signed off contractually on decisions to be made regarding embryos before those cycles even started, with their clinic - legally binding contracts. All reputable clinics require this, and they address the difficult questions legally and specifically: if you and your partner divorce or split, what happens to the embryos (donation to another couple, donation to medical science, destroy)? Both partners have to sign off on an agreed-upon choice. What happens to the embryos if one of you dies? What happens to the embryos if both of you die at the same time? … I assure you this was legally asked and answered years ago, it occasionally comes up in court but it’s always settled quickly given the presence of notarized documentation. It’s like when soon-to-be-ex-wives try to fight prenups. It doesn’t work.

I find the opinion that repeated failed rounds of IVF is indicative of the will of a higher power or of nature to be absolutely disgusting, but to each, her own opinion. Curious: Replace “IVF” with “cancer” in that statement see if that same feeling holds.

 

[cjm11]

Trial adjourned until next week, a juror is ill.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

I think that will be Sunday around 6pm ET. Hope the juror's illness is not severe.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Confident that she and her husband signed off contractually on decisions to be made regarding embryos before those cycles even started, with their clinic - legally binding contracts. All reputable clinics require this, and they address the difficult questions legally and specifically: if you and your partner divorce or split, what happens to the embryos (donation to another couple, donation to medical science, destroy)? Both partners have to sign off on an agreed-upon choice. What happens to the embryos if one of you dies? What happens to the embryos if both of you die at the same time? … I assure you this was legally asked and answered years ago, it occasionally comes up in court but it’s always settled quickly given the presence of notarized documentation. It’s like when soon-to-be-ex-wives try to fight prenups. It doesn’t work.

I find the opinion that repeated failed rounds of IVF is indicative of the will of a higher power or of nature to be absolutely disgusting, but to each, her own opinion. Curious: Replace “IVF” with “cancer” in that statement see if that same feeling holds.

Really?! A cancer patient receiving treatment to save their life is comparable in your opinion, to a woman receiving IVF treatment, by choice, because she believes she deserves to have a child?!
This thread is about the murder of 3 little girls and it's lost focus when IVF is more important than their lives, that's disgusting, imo.

 

[Charlot123]

My thoughts for today. Linked below is an article i found thought-provoking. Some things to pay attention to:

- that egg adoption is not cheap

- that there is international egg adoption, too

- that usually there is an agreement drawn regarding the fate of the embryos in case of the father dying. If such a document was drawn in LD's case, as it should have been, did it somehow affect her decision to take the kids with her when she decided to commit suicide? Maybe this was the "package deal" she was referring to in the text conversation with GD? And her wish for the children to not be raised by another mother, who did not invest that dearly in child-bearing, could it be explained by this fact, too?

- also, remember the phrase said in one of the articles about Lione, "her perfect baby". To me, the ranking of victims might have not been quite conscious, but is obvious. IMHO, it has little to do with the first victim's behavior, or maybe the behavior reflected something else. I think LD's perfectionism played out badly for her, and for the kids.

Overall, a very complex case, and I am 99% positive LD did not intend to stay alive. Those who follow my train of thoughts should see why. But - keeping her alive and treating in the hospital to full lucidity might be more appropriate. Hopefully, it will result in her finally realizing the enormous guilt she has to bear now, as the girls were neither hers, nor Graham's, property. They were not her "perfect" children. They were not Graham's "beautiful" daughters. Nor were they expensive embryos. These children were independent human beings, who had full right to own their lives.

My first conclusion: 1) yes, there is absolute need to screen BOTH egg donors and recipients - if you have read, donors are often screened for things like IQ or sport achievements. Full neuropsychiatric evaluation of all involved parties is a must. One case is too many.

2) there has to be extensive counceling - of both donors and recipients. Donors, of what it might entail. Recipients, of many things, including, but not limited to, that they are NOT OWNERS of the children they got. Like we, biological parents - we are not owners either, merely guardians of our children.

Heck, we all know about "autonomy vs shame and doubt" phase, but how come no one in the case recognized the right of the girls for autonomy?

Top 10 Mistakes Made By Couples Using an Egg Donor

Massachusetts and New Hampshire fertility lawyer Catherine Tucker explains common mistakes made by intended parents relying upon an egg donor.

nhfertilitylaw.com

Sorry I didn't plan to yell but bold font doesn't work for me, so I had to emphasize it.

 

[Charlot123]

Really?! A cancer patient receiving treatment to save their life is comparable in your opinion, to a woman receiving IVF treatment, by choice, because she believes she deserves to have a child?!
This thread is about the murder of 3 little girls and it's lost focus when IVF is more important than their lives, that's disgusting, imo.

JMO - if anyone paid attention, we have at least two different threads/cases here when very affluent parents who had kids via donation and IVF failed miserably. In the first case (another country), the parents failed at parenting, and we don't even know how/if it factored into their own destinies. This current situation is even worse. I think that the enormous costs incurred and maybe, the desire to have "own" children, could trigger possessiveness in the parents. Think of how the society viewed the Ds and why the fact of LD being totally unfit mother was obscured by the nice packaging. Think of her own feeling of being entitled to the girls' unconditional love, what circumstances prompted this, "I don't want another mother to raise my children". Think of how many couples would have already said, enough, let's adopt, and why didn't they do it. What first resulted in the Nobel prize and then became a medical miracle, hopefully, infrequently ends up in absolutely twisted attitude to children. Time to raise the morality of the society up to par with technological achievements.

 

[minusfour]

I don't feel very confident about what I "know" about this case. The earlier information seemed to indicate that LD didn't bond with the girls at all. This now seems wrong.

Moving to a country, with strict immigration rules about health, having a career with same, 17 rounds of IVF, previous mental health problems, covid isolation, a husband who had to be busy starting a new job- a perfect storm in this case, for an absolute tragic set of events for this family.

I just don't know, it's so very sad.

 

[silvercrown]

Really?! A cancer patient receiving treatment to save their life is comparable in your opinion, to a woman receiving IVF treatment, by choice, because she believes she deserves to have a child?!
This thread is about the murder of 3 little girls and it's lost focus when IVF is more important than their lives, that's disgusting, imo.

I’m not sure that’s what @caradana was implying.

Moo A woman has as much of a right to seek fertility treatment just as a cancer patient has the right to seek cancer treatment. I took the comment to refer generally to body autonomy rather than ‘defying the will of nature’

ETA I mean, obviously this case is not one of the ‘generally’ ones I refer to above. I’m so curious about the physical and psychological support and counselling the Dickasons received throughout their 17 rounds of IVF and whether or not her doctor/s advised against it for whatever reason. I would have thought this may have been relevant at trial?

IVF is so hard on the body, I can’t imagine the toll 17 rounds would take.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I’m not sure that’s what @caradana was implying.

Moo A woman has as much of a right to seek fertility treatment just as a cancer patient has the right to seek cancer treatment. I took the comment to refer generally to body autonomy rather than ‘defying the will of nature’

But no one said they can't have IVF treatment. It's being offended for no reason in a thread about the murder of 3 children, it's making it about IVF instead of the case in hand. Basically, it's off topic.
There's anger about these little girls being killed, why is it now about who should or shouldn't have IVF? This feet stamping is very inappropriate imo.