GUILTY New Zealand - Dr. Lauren Dickason, 40, charged w/killing her 3 young daughters, Timaru, 16 Sep 2021

[Sararara]

I think there’s another way we could look at it- although we don’t know for sure.

She says all this stuff to her friends- if they announce this lockdown I’ll take out my whole family, if L wasn’t in school I’d murder her, I want to strangle her etc….

What if this is how she vents, and Graham had heard it many times? I can imagine a situation where whenever the kids annoy her or overwhelm her, she starts talking this way. “I SWEAR if you don’t help me I’ll kill myself”, “What, you’re going on a trip again, I’ll strangle the kids for sure”…

If she’s saying that stuff to friends (which I would say is not normal- I’m a mom and haven’t had anyone say anything like that to me), she was likely saying it to Graham.

I don’t think we can make any judgments here. Maybe he was an absent father. But probably, he went to that dinner because he wanted to slot in at his new work place. I doubt it was purely for fun- probably something he felt he should do.

Also, it may be reasonable to go on hunting trips. A lot of women are overwhelmed with the kids- and G didn’t have hindsight to inform him that something more was going on.

My own sense is that LD, who killed the kids and didn’t have a normal motherly relationship with them, was a pretty messed up person. G had probably dealt with her mental health issues for so long he became desensitised. She did say he was her primary emotional support- and it’s clear she wasn’t eager to enlist professional help. She obviously wanted to be independent and pushed for this.

So when she made those comments, I imagine they were not new to G. I don’t trust her version of events, as it’s obviously in her interests to describe her experiences as closely in line with PPD etc as possible. But my take is that she probably talked like that for years, made all kinds of threats to manipulate and control Graham, and was overall so resentful and unhappy with him that he gave up trying to help or please her.

 

[silvercrown]

I think there’s another way we could look at it- although we don’t know for sure.

She says all this stuff to her friends- if they announce this lockdown I’ll take out my whole family, if L wasn’t in school I’d murder her, I want to strangle her etc….

What if this is how she vents, and Graham had heard it many times? I can imagine a situation where whenever the kids annoy her or overwhelm her, she starts talking this way. “I SWEAR if you don’t help me I’ll kill myself”, “What, you’re going on a trip again, I’ll strangle the kids for sure”…

If she’s saying that stuff to friends (which I would say is not normal- I’m a mom and haven’t had anyone say anything like that to me), she was likely saying it to Graham.

RSBM.
We know that she did tell him she was thinking about killing the kids. Say that is how she vented, with her history of depression and PPD, surely this would raise some serious red flags that she may very well follow through with it.

I know it would for me if my husband spoke that way. I also feel that the fact he is a doctor raises the expectation that his alarm bells should be ringing even higher. MOO.

It seems like along with all the stresses involved with the move to NZ, quarantine, new job, and marital stress that the prosecution’s psych testified to today, there was a bit of a head in the sand approach to Lauren’s mental health.

I’m sympathetic to her apparent mental health concerns and disordered thinking, but I don’t think it meets the threshold of insanity. She definitely needs psychiatric help though. I hope she has been getting it since she was arrested.

 

[Sararara]

Yeah, I know I would also freak out if my partner talked that way.
But denial is one coping mechanism- and it may be more natural if you’ve been dealing with your partner’s mental health issues for 15 years or whatever. If they kind of had a family habit of not reacting because they didn’t want to upset her… maybe she reacted poorly to people trying to help her. Maybe it made her angry/feel like a failure/spiral further.
I just don’t think he deserves to be blamed for being in denial. It’s a hard thing to imagine actually happening. He probably felt moving to NZ would fix everything. Most men would act this way, IMO. Maybe this trial will help bring awareness to the reality that some women do act on those kinds of thoughts. But… people speed behind the wheel of their car even though they know it could kill them/someone else.
Human behaviour is hard to change- we’re usually stuck in our habits and coping mechanisms until something crazy enough happens

 

[silvercrown]

Yep, I get it (genuinely!). Maybe he was so used to hearing her talk that way and they were so unhappy that it became rhetoric. I read she had suffered with depression since she was a teenager. If the marriage was a very unhappy one then maybe it would have been difficult for him to summon sympathy for her and not just see it as something she said out of spite or hatred. But I bet he kicks himself every day for not taking it seriously and doing everything he could do help if it meant not losing his girls.
All the signs were there that their situation was going to end in disaster. Easier to see in hindsight of course. But they were there.

 

[annpats]

I’m personally not reading anything into Graham’s work function as a ‘when the going gets tough the tough get going’ kind of thing. But again, need more context of their relationship.

All I see is the pattern, even when Graham can be with the family, he leaves the house. Maybe it was a tough, toxic atmosphere in the house, I can see it...but he still felt the kids were safe with Lauren.

After the 2 week COVID quarantine Graham had only been in NZ a week, and had started at the hospital almost straight away, as that was what was required of him.

He went out for a dinner with other colleagues, and it really wouldn't have been 'the done thing' to refuse and stay home.

His surgical career would have required lots of medical networking, colleague dinners, seminars and after-work meetings.

Surely he would've had to do the same back in SA? And being in a new country he would've wanted to ingratiate himself and please the new people even more.

 

[silvercrown]

After the 2 week COVID quarantine Graham had only been in NZ a week, and had started at the hospital almost straight away, as that was what was required of him.

He went out for a dinner with other colleagues, and it really wouldn't have been 'the done thing' to refuse and stay home.

His surgical career would have required lots of medical networking, colleague dinners, seminars and after-work meetings.

Surely he would've had to do the same back in SA? And being in a new country he would've wanted to ingratiate himself and please the new people even more.

You’ve misread my comment about that. I said that I don’t read anything into him going to the work dinner that night. I’m sure it was just one of those things associated with his new job.

 

[cjm11]

From the trial where the prosecution is questioning their chosen psychiatrist Dr. Monasterio. This testimony is from the day of the murders.

When she collected the twins from preschool, Karla threw a tantrum and Graham put on his headphones and went to the bedroom, which she saw as him withdrawing, she told Monasterio.

Also, Dickason said upon arriving home, she put dinner on but the children said it wasn’t enough.
She described feeling like a screw tightening and that she was afraid she was going to give the children “a good hiding”.

Graham again went to the bedroom and she thought he was not coping.

I some how feel he may have done this a lot. He didn't know how to deal with the situation and just ignored it.

Of course the prosecution's witness determined Lauren did not commit an altruistic killing, nor was she insane when this happened. He said she already had depression so how could she have PPD.

Sorry, I just don't agree with this. To me PPD is much worse than just depression and I feel it was PPD not only severe depression.

 

[iamshadow21]

From the trial where the prosecution is questioning their chosen psychiatrist Dr. Monasterio. This testimony is from the day of the murders.

When she collected the twins from preschool, Karla threw a tantrum and Graham put on his headphones and went to the bedroom, which she saw as him withdrawing, she told Monasterio.

Also, Dickason said upon arriving home, she put dinner on but the children said it wasn’t enough.
She described feeling like a screw tightening and that she was afraid she was going to give the children “a good hiding”.

Graham again went to the bedroom and she thought he was not coping.

I some how feel he may have done this a lot. He didn't know how to deal with the situation and just ignored it.

Of course the prosecution's witness determined Lauren did not commit an altruistic killing, nor was she insane when this happened. He said she already had depression so how could she have PPD.

Sorry, I just don't agree with this. To me PPD is much worse than just depression and I feel it was PPD not only severe depression.

See, I read that and it just seems to align with her killing the girls to vent her anger against them and punish her husband for not being present when she felt he should have been.

Rage, and spite. Punishing them all.

MOO

 

[silvercrown]

Of course the prosecution's witness determined Lauren did not commit an altruistic killing, nor was she insane when this happened. He said she already had depression so how could she have PPD.

Sorry, I just don't agree with this. To me PPD is much worse than just depression and I feel it was PPD not only severe depression.

RSBM. It wasn’t just me that thought that was strange comment by the psychiatrist today then! I wonder if there was further context missing from that testimony that just wasn’t reported by the media.

Again, not an expert but my understanding is the way that PPD disorders your thinking is totally different to generalised depression and they can exist simultaneously. Moo it’s not one or the other.

 

[silvercrown]

See, I read that and it just seems to align with her killing the girls to vent her anger against them and punish her husband for not being present when she felt he should have been.

Rage, and spite. Punishing them all.

MOO

It’s so interesting how we all perceive things differently. I’m so glad I’m not on that jury.

 

[cjm11]

It’s so interesting how we all perceive things differently. I’m so glad I’m not on that jury.

It is interesting. We are only reading the trial (as far as I know there is no audio). We cannot hear the inflections on the voices which also give great info.

I can kind of see both sides. Right now I'm leaning towards PPD causing an altruistic infanticide. Like you, glad I don't have to decide.

I understand it is only three years punishment for this type of killing. Do they make sure the defendent is of sound mind before releasing?

Andrea Yates still refuses parole when she is eligible. Another mental illness tragedy imo.

 

[Cedars]

saying someone "would rather die" is ridiculous and over the top.

My comment was based on my personal observation of some people's internal attitudes.

"Just as affected persons internalize public stigma into self‐stigma, family members also feel shame and guilt, blaming themselves for somehow contributing to the illness." The stigma of mental disorders: A millennia‐long history of social exclusion and prejudices

Narcissistic individuals are particularly unable to cope with feelings of shame and guilt, and - as is possibly true in this case - would rather commit suicide (or murder) than opt for voluntary/involuntary commitment.

I was not commenting on whether it's a good thing for some people to have these attitudes, whether these are reasonable or unreasonable or appropriate responses. Merely making an observation.
JMO

 

[cjm11]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Explains definitions of murder, manslaughter, infanticide and insanity. This is where I got the 3 year max for infanticide.

"If this series of steps is met, then the offence is called infanticide, which carries a maximum sentence of three years."

I don't know how I feel about that right now. Does she get credit for time served? How is she mentally? What about continued out-patient treatment?

 

[JerseyGirl]

Lauren Dickason trial: Psychiatrist questioned about diagnosis

A jury has heard how Lauren Dickason told a psychiatrist that killing her three children was "part of a package deal".

www.rnz.co.nz

 

[annpats]

"Appearing via audio-visual link, Dr Hatters-Friedman said a major disorder was not being ruled out by psychiatric professionals and the prospect of further assessment was still being monitored"

Oh my, nearly 2 years down the line, and she's been in a psychiatric unit since then and they're saying they still don't know if she has a mental disorder or not and may need more assessment???

I think her psychiatrist and defence team are playing for time and scrabbling around desperately to get her off the hook as an "evil triple-child killer".

Saying something along the lines of "Oh, well, we'll need to do further tests, we're not sure" is frankly ridiculous.

She's obviously not suffering from any known psychiatric disorders, otherwise they would have said so.

MOO.

Lauren Dickason trial: Psychiatrist questioned about diagnosis

A jury has heard how Lauren Dickason told a psychiatrist that killing her three children was "part of a package deal".

www.rnz.co.nz

 

[cjm11]

Recap article from yesterday's trial.

Lauren Dickason murder trial: Murder-accused mum changed reasoning for killing her children months later, Crown expert witness says

Over the course of the trial, the jury will hear from five mental health experts who assessed Lauren after the killings.

www.newshub.co.nz

 

[silvercrown]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Explains definitions of murder, manslaughter, infanticide and insanity. This is where I got the 3 year max for infanticide.

"If this series of steps is met, then the offence is called infanticide, which carries a maximum sentence of three years."

I don't know how I feel about that right now. Does she get credit for time served? How is she mentally? What about continued out-patient treatment?

Gosh, I’m sure (I hope) the actual legislation is more explicit, but the threshold for infanticide seems so low to me. I also don’t know how I feel about that.

I wonder if this case will give cause to revisit the legislation surrounding infanticide to encompass more of the aspects of Postpartum Psychosis (PPP) not PPD.

It would be so tough for jurors, hearing expert testimony from psychiatrists from both sides, with the onus on them to make the call about her psychiatric wellbeing. I know that’s how the system works, but it seems so bizarre.

 

[Sararara]

A very interesting read on previous NZ infanticide cases When mothers kill, but don't go to jail

 

[Sararara]

I am not sure that LD can use this defence- as the psychiatrist said, because “Infanticide is a charge available to women who can show their minds have been temporarily "disturbed" by the stress of childbirth or breastfeeding.” This does not appear to be a temporary disturbance of mind contingent on child birth.

Also- many mothers that kill try to use the infanticide defence. This case is not unique- if the defence is available, any kind of person will use it. This adds to the complexity around PPD.
From what I read, around 20-30% of those child homicides where mothers tried to use infanticide as a defence resulted in a conviction of infanticide. The rest- murder.

 

[silvercrown]

I am not sure that LD can use this defence- as the psychiatrist said, because “Infanticide is a charge available to women who can show their minds have been temporarily "disturbed" by the stress of childbirth or breastfeeding.” This does not appear to be a temporary disturbance of mind contingent on child birth.

Also- many mothers that kill try to use the infanticide defence. This case is not unique- if the defence is available, any kind of person will use it. This adds to the complexity around PPD.
From what I read, around 20-30% of those child homicides where mothers tried to use infanticide as a defence resulted in a conviction of infanticide. The rest- murder.

I’m sure legal counsel want to avoid as much jail time for their clients as possible so I’m not surprised that they would use that defence. IMO 20-30% success rate seems quite high actually. Moo