GUILTY NH - Abby Hernandez, 14, North Conway, 9 Oct 2013 - #15

[margarita25]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...BZJ/story.html



The New Hampshire man charged with kidnapping teenager Abigail Hernandez allegedly held the girl on his property for at least some of the time that she went missing, according to a judicial ruling issued in the case on Friday.

Also from this link:

"Albee sided with the defense in Friday’s ruling.

“For instance, if the mobile home and the crate are removed, the defendant will not be able to investigate the ability or inability of others to hear sounds from inside the structures, the effect the stream has on that ability or inability, what can be seen inside the structures by others on the outside, what could be seen by anyone from the inside of the structures, and what effect the tree canopy may have on what others may have been able or unable to hear,” she wrote.

She added that moving the structures would bar the defense team from evaluating “the plausibility of another hearing or not hearing sounds consistent with someone being held against her will.”

 

[margarita25]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/08/08/abigail-hernandez-kidnapping-case-hearing-postponed-request-suspect-nathaniel-kibby/z9o9SV1eKzEHhNxVHGlBZJ/story.html

 

[Fireweed]

Also from this link:

"Albee sided with the defense in Friday’s ruling.

“For instance, if the mobile home and the crate are removed, the defendant will not be able to investigate the ability or inability of others to hear sounds from inside the structures, the effect the stream has on that ability or inability, what can be seen inside the structures by others on the outside, what could be seen by anyone from the inside of the structures, and what effect the tree canopy may have on what others may have been able or unable to hear,” she wrote.

She added that moving the structures would bar the defense team from evaluating “the plausibility of another hearing or not hearing sounds consistent with someone being held against her will.”

Basically, the female attorney who works with Friedman is going to go into the container and scream at the top of her lungs and Friedman is going to move around to various points to see if he can hear it or not. Well that sounds like a reasonable thing for the defense to want to investigate while the structures are still on that property. It is things like that, that simply cannot be replicated and "preserved" by the state.

 

[liljim]

the original title of that boston globe article being linked was "officials believe abigail hernandez was held in storage container", after some time it was edited to what it currently is now "...held on man's property"

i don't believe LE/pros has ever alleged it, or stated that they believe it, or anything else.

i think it is strongly suggested but i don't think it is coming from them.

if you notice, none of the places reporting it this way ever give an exact quote that supports it, or even claim that "a source tells us". they just state it as if it is fact.

it most likely will be alleged at some point, im not debating that.

 

[tlcya]

nope, it all stems from the neighbor interview the day the raid and arrest went down. LE has done nothing to dissuade or negate the assumptions from the press since that time IMO. Doesn't mean the press is wrong or right, just that LE feels no need to come out with any definitive statement to squelch that assumption but at the same time they have been careful not to play into it.

 

[white rabbit]

agree with every one of fireweed's posts...and thank you liljim, I had that conundrum this morning with the boston globe. I 'reached my limit' on non-logged-in-articles but the headline clearly stated "held in a storage container"...

so. delay on probable cause so the defense can have a shot at the crime scene...thoughts?

 

[Fireweed]

http://conwaydailysun.com/newsx/local-news/111944-pi-says-abby-in-the-northeast-police-can-t-confirm

This is an interesting article I found from March, where a PI is convinced that Abby is likely still in NH, and where local LE asks people to vigilant if they see a young woman they have never seen before living near them.

The letter was postmarked on October 23, which is a Wednesday. I have a strong suspicion that if Kibby mailed it, he mailed it from Conway, since he would have gone to work there that day. I think that LE was quite certain early on in this case that Abby was somewhere nearby.

 

[Hatfield]

Catching up after some time. Just so glad she is safe.

Just some thoughts

Regarding the Container. I could envision perhaps its original use could have had soundproofing installed to use as a gun range. Its not that big, but as a make-do gun range primarily for handguns, it would actually work rather well. If someone soundproofed it and then closed the door behind them, they could wear ear protection and the container could serve rather nicely. Most likely handgun practice instead of rifles.
Im not saying this was even done to this container, but just offering that I could envision this working out rather well for handgun practice.

Just so glad she is home safe.

 

[Fireweed]

Catching up after some time. Just so glad she is safe.

Just some thoughts

Regarding the Container. I could envision perhaps its original use could have had soundproofing installed to use as a gun range. Its not that big, but as a make-do gun range primarily for handguns, it would actually work rather well. If someone soundproofed it and then closed the door behind them, they could wear ear protection and the container could serve rather nicely. Most likely handgun practice instead of rifles.
Im not saying this was even done to this container, but just offering that I could envision this working out rather well for handgun practice.

Just so glad she is home safe.

The reason I do not think it was used for that purpose (at least not recently), is that it was divided into three rooms.

 

[bakerlady]

has the prosecution made a direct claim yet that they allege she was held in the shipping container?

i have not seen it but there are several news sites claiming it (msm).

A neighbor was quoted by MSM saying Kibby had a young lady come to visit often, so I doubt that Abby was in the home at that time. The container is soundproofed and divided into 3 rooms, one which they would not discuss. I imagine that it was the bathroom facilities. I think it's safe to assume she spent a lot of time in there. JMO.

 

[bakerlady]

If there was a tunnel from the home to the container it would be a huge undertaking for one person and it would be so easy for them to find it with sonar so I can't imagine why they would even bother to ask the neighbors such a questio.

 

[Fireweed]

If there was a tunnel from the home to the container it would be a huge undertaking for one person and it would be so easy for them to find it with sonar so I can't imagine why they would even bother to ask the neighbors such a questio.

Kibby either had an industrial drill, or dynamite to make a tunnel in that granite.

 

[newguy123]

I wondered about the tunnel too.....because if there was a tunnel it had to have two ends...one of which had to come up into the container floor. No doubt LE could find that more effectively than by asking neighbours about it.
I have wondered that since he went to the trouble of keeping her clothes intact, would someone of that mind set not only be able to "clean up" forensic evidence? Not sure how much cleaning and scrubbing one would need to do, nor with what product, but it might be possible, depending on what the area was covered in. Obviously plastic covering would wipe up better than cloth.

 

[Fireweed]

If there was a tunnel, they would have found it right away. There are only so many places a tunnel can begin and end when going from a mobile home to a shipping container.

 

[Ghostwheel]

In the portion of yesterday's decision quoted by the Boston Globe, the court treats the container and the trailer collectively, suggesting that the state's theory is that Hernandez was held in either the trailer or container or both the trailer and container:

"f the mobile home and the crate are removed, the defendant will not be able to investigate the ability or inability of others to hear sounds from inside the structures, the effect the stream has on that ability or inability, what can be seen inside the structures by others on the outside, what could be seen by anyone from the inside of the structures, and what effect the tree canopy may have on what others may have been able or unable to hear[.]”

The Daily Mail reported that investigators asked one of Kibby's neighbors "whether he thought Kibby could have dug a tunnel from his trailer to the container." This suggests that the state has at least entertained a scenario in which Hernandez traveled from the trailer to the crate. Perhaps the state hoped to develop its "tunnel" theory after removal of the trailer and crate from their current locations.

BBM: I think the tunnel theory has only to do with whether Kibby could have gotten Abby from the trailer to the container without anyone noticing. Or if he planned on setting it up that way eventually. It would appear the defense is hanging their hat on the "How could she possibly have been there for 9 months and no one saw or heard her" defense. IMO, they are going for:
1) If there is evidence of Abby in both the Trailer AND the container, how could no one see her going back and forth (or even one direction) (there are so many cases where something like this happened that would shut this down, it isn't even funny)
2) If she was being held against her will, how could no one have heard her (because everyone held in a structures screams...except for anyone who has been found alive so far because they feared for their lives)
3) If there is evidence of Abby in the trailer, and any of the defense team can see in a window at any angle on any given day, how could the neighbors not have seen her? (because all neighbors peek in windows, you know....)
4) If there is evidence of Abby in the trailer, and a person in the trailer could see out, why didn't she try to signal for help (see number 2 above)
5) If Abby said she screamed for help, but no one heard her (but even if a person CAN hear someone yelling for help outside, it doesn't mean anyone DID hear it)

I think defense is going that way, and prosecution is checking to see what ways there are to refute that line of thinking. Including a tunnel, if that was even really considered.

 

[Fireweed]

My guess is that the defense is doing what they are supposed to do: instill doubt. It would be up to the jury to do the analysis you just did, not the defense attorney. His job is throw doubts at the fact-finder, and hope that just enough stick so that the jury has reasonable doubt in the end. So, for example, if someone screaming in the storage container could be heard all over the trailer park, then that would be part of the doubt that Abby was there against her will. Would that be enough doubt for me as a juror? No, of course not. You yourself gave a great reason as to why. Hey if some guy held a knife to my throat and told me that if I screamed he would kill me, then I would not scream. The defense, however, has to investigate all those things, and then present a case that attacks the DA's case with all of their doubts.

 

[Ghostwheel]

My guess is that the defense is doing what they are supposed to do: instill doubt. It would be up to the jury to do the analysis you just did, not the defense attorney. His job is throw doubts at the fact-finder, and hope that just enough stick so that the jury has reasonable doubt in the end. So, for example, if someone screaming in the storage container could be heard all over the trailer park, then that would be part of the doubt that Abby was there against her will. Would that be enough doubt for me as a juror? No, of course not. You yourself gave a great reason as to why. Hey if some gun held a knife to my throat and told me that if I screamed he would kill me, then I would not scream. The defense, however, has to investigate all those things, and then present a case that attacks the DA's case with all of their doubts.

I don't disagree. What I am saying is that instead of saying Kibby didn't have her at all, to me it looks like they are going to try to cast doubt on whether she was held against her will, not whether she was there. And IMO (as I so parenthetically pointed out), good luck with that.

 

[Fireweed]

I don't disagree. What I am saying is that instead of saying Kibby didn't have her at all, to me it looks like they are going to try to cast doubt on whether she was held against her will, not whether she was there. And IMO (as I so parenthetically pointed out), good luck with that.

I definitely think she was there with him at least at some point in the past nine months, and likely the entire time. I have my doubts as to whether she was there against her will not due to any technicality as to whether others could hear her scream, [modsnip]

 

[Ghostwheel]

I definitely think she was there with him at least at some point in the past nine months, and likely the entire time. I have my doubts as to whether she was there against her will not due to any technicality as to whether others could hear her scream, [modsnip]

Fair point.

 

[sreshowtime]

probably in the minority, but I really wonder if she was there on his premises, the entire time she has been gone...it's so odd

i just do not get that so called sketch

regardless, so glad she is ALIVE