GUILTY NH - AH, 14, North Conway, 9 October 2013 - # 9

[TheNightOwl]

The Union Leader published an opinion piece today that was highly critical of the investigation
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20131208/OPINION01/131209455

If someone else mentioned this, my apologies, but I didnt notice it.

The Union Leader published an opinion piece today that was highly critical of the investigation
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20131208/OPINION01/131209455

If someone else mentioned this, my apologies, but I didnt notice it.

Thank God for the FBI involvement. They are trained professionals and IMO they deserve full cooperation from the public. Does anyone seriously believe that letter was mailed from a town where AH might be? Think about it. NO. If you believe this is possible maybe the person who is taking care of Abby put a return address on the envelope too. duh. We should be thankful the FBI is involved in the search for AH. No one should be critical of their efforts. When they ask people in their communities to be on the look out for ANY girl that could be AH then we should all be looking and CALL THE FBI IMMEDIATELY. I wouldn't call local police because that information goes over a scanner where ears are listening. This is surely how that possible sighting hit the newspaper so quickly and that is not safe for any young girl in danger. REPORT ANY SIGHTINGS IMMEDIATELY to the FBI. Even if you second guess reporting a tip, do it anyway. Everyone interested in finding AH wants to know that she is safe and alive. She is 15 years old. Vulnerable. She is missed by her family and friends. Her community has been turned upside down by her disappearance. I don't believe there is a person in NH who hasn't heard of AH. We all hope AH is safely returned where she can grow up, learn to drive a car, go to prom, graduate from high school and get to go away to a college of her choice someday and we just want to see AH have a happy and long life.
Those who donated money to help find her, gifted that money to a worthy cause and it has been put to excellent use. The magnetic signs, the fliers, the continuous updates on the websites and no one should be posting negative or hateful comments or feel bitter. Every donation goes to finding this beautiful young lady. JC, PK, AS and the administrators of the fb pages are amazing people. I don't know when they sleep! JC was angry but think about what his family and his son has been through for the past 60 days because they have been worried sick. Who wouldn't be mad to find out that he was not told about the letter for an entire month so do not judge his emotional statements too harshly. He was angry. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but the FBI knows exactly what they are doing and they can not give out every clue to the public. We are not entitled to know every detail of the lives of these people. No one should be angry with AH and after she comes home, I hope the media leaves her alone. Being a teenager is a confusing time. No one needs to know her business once she comes home. We should see it as a miracle and be thankful that the person who has cared for Abby sees what an amazing girl that she is and can see how much she is missed. No one is going to give up hoping for her safe return. Please bring her home to her town and her mother if you are reading this. We would be forever grateful for her safe return. What everyone needs to do is look for her. Be understanding and respectful of the FBI, her parents, and AH. A final thought, Be kind.

 

[LookingHoping]

Thank God for the FBI involvement. They are trained professionals and IMO they deserve full cooperation from the public. Does anyone seriously believe that letter was mailed from a town where AH might be? Think about it. NO. If you believe this is possible maybe the person who is taking care of Abby put a return address on the envelope too. duh. We should be thankful the FBI is involved in the search for AH. No one should be critical of their efforts. When they ask people in their communities to be on the look out for ANY girl that could be AH then we should all be looking and CALL THE FBI IMMEDIATELY. I wouldn't call local police because that information goes over a scanner where ears are listening. This is surely how that possible sighting hit the newspaper so quickly and that is not safe for any young girl in danger. REPORT ANY SIGHTINGS IMMEDIATELY to the FBI. Even if you second guess reporting a tip, do it anyway. Everyone interested in finding AH wants to know that she is safe and alive. She is 15 years old. Vulnerable. She is missed by her family and friends. Her community has been turned upside down by her disappearance. I don't believe there is a person in NH who hasn't heard of AH. We all hope AH is safely returned where she can grow up, learn to drive a car, go to prom, graduate from high school and get to go away to a college of her choice someday and we just want to see AH have a happy and long life.
Those who donated money to help find her, gifted that money to a worthy cause and it has been put to excellent use. The magnetic signs, the fliers, the continuous updates on the websites and no one should be posting negative or hateful comments or feel bitter. Every donation goes to finding this beautiful young lady. JC, PK, AS and the administrators of the fb pages are amazing people. I don't know when they sleep! JC was angry but think about what his family and his son has been through for the past 60 days because they have been worried sick. Who wouldn't be mad to find out that he was not told about the letter for an entire month so do not judge his emotional statements too harshly. He was angry. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but the FBI knows exactly what they are doing and they can not give out every clue to the public. We are not entitled to know every detail of the lives of these people. No one should be angry with AH and after she comes home, I hope the media leaves her alone. Being a teenager is a confusing time. No one needs to know her business once she comes home. We should see it as a miracle and be thankful that the person who has cared for Abby sees what an amazing girl that she is and can see how much she is missed. No one is going to give up hoping for her safe return. Please bring her home to her town and her mother if you are reading this. We would be forever grateful for her safe return. What everyone needs to do is look for her. Be understanding and respectful of the FBI, her parents, and AH. A final thought, Be kind.

YES, yes and YES! I was shocked to read that article in the Union Leader, of all places.... and YES to the FBI being involved. Bravo, NightOwl!

 

[Mom24]

Paul commented and isn't happy his name was used without permission. Can't say I blame him.

Newspapers rarely ask permission to print people's names in regards to articles or editorials. That's a very naive perspective. They didn't ask permission when they printed JC's name or JCjr's name or RH, or ZH or JY or KR or any of the other names they've printed in relation to this case. They report the news, don't want your name in there, don't put yourself in the middle. If he doesn't like what is said he can send in a press release of his own. If I were PK I would send in a press release of my own, worded the way I want it worded and focus people back on getting the word out rather than pointing fingers at LE. JMO.

 

[Mom24]

Thank God for the FBI involvement. They are trained professionals and IMO they deserve full cooperation from the public. Does anyone seriously believe that letter was mailed from a town where AH might be? Think about it. NO. If you believe this is possible maybe the person who is taking care of Abby put a return address on the envelope too. duh. We should be thankful the FBI is involved in the search for AH. No one should be critical of their efforts. When they ask people in their communities to be on the look out for ANY girl that could be AH then we should all be looking and CALL THE FBI IMMEDIATELY. I wouldn't call local police because that information goes over a scanner where ears are listening. This is surely how that possible sighting hit the newspaper so quickly and that is not safe for any young girl in danger. REPORT ANY SIGHTINGS IMMEDIATELY to the FBI. Even if you second guess reporting a tip, do it anyway. Everyone interested in finding AH wants to know that she is safe and alive. She is 15 years old. Vulnerable. She is missed by her family and friends. Her community has been turned upside down by her disappearance. I don't believe there is a person in NH who hasn't heard of AH. We all hope AH is safely returned where she can grow up, learn to drive a car, go to prom, graduate from high school and get to go away to a college of her choice someday and we just want to see AH have a happy and long life.
Those who donated money to help find her, gifted that money to a worthy cause and it has been put to excellent use. The magnetic signs, the fliers, the continuous updates on the websites and no one should be posting negative or hateful comments or feel bitter. Every donation goes to finding this beautiful young lady. JC, PK, AS and the administrators of the fb pages are amazing people. I don't know when they sleep! JC was angry but think about what his family and his son has been through for the past 60 days because they have been worried sick. Who wouldn't be mad to find out that he was not told about the letter for an entire month so do not judge his emotional statements too harshly. He was angry. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but the FBI knows exactly what they are doing and they can not give out every clue to the public. We are not entitled to know every detail of the lives of these people. No one should be angry with AH and after she comes home, I hope the media leaves her alone. Being a teenager is a confusing time. No one needs to know her business once she comes home. We should see it as a miracle and be thankful that the person who has cared for Abby sees what an amazing girl that she is and can see how much she is missed. No one is going to give up hoping for her safe return. Please bring her home to her town and her mother if you are reading this. We would be forever grateful for her safe return. What everyone needs to do is look for her. Be understanding and respectful of the FBI, her parents, and AH. A final thought, Be kind.

BBM
I think too often people are hesitant to call, they don't want to be wrong. Call. If you think you know something that might help, call. If you think you might have seen her, call. If you see something odd somewhere, call. Too often people don't call, and they have said at every press conf that the thing most disturbing is good information coming too late. They want to hear from you, call them. You aren't bothering them, they really do want to hear from you. Don't worry, don't be afraid of wasting anyone's time, you won't be. Also, know that if a tip includes something like underage drinking or drug use, they're not going to prosecute you on anything, they've got bigger fish to fry, call. I worry that some of her friends may hold back information afraid they'll get in trouble for admitting to drinking or drug use or shoplifting, etc. Trust me, they FBI wants this girl back, they will not prosecute for insignificant things when a child's safety is at stake.

 

[Mom24]

The two missing girls in Mass were found safe in Ohio.

Wow. That's quite a distance in such a short time. Thank goodness they are safe.

 

[gitana1]

"forced into sexual situations" could be a myriad of things. There's a lot of "sexual situations" that aren't sex trafficking. I'm not sold, no pun intended, on that being the meaning behind "sexual situation". I would be more worried that this letter was sent to make her look like a runaway, and that would mean she's at someone's mercy. Someone was brazen enough to let her write a letter that would give away her location. I think she may be "hiding in plain sight" so to speak. I think whoever has AH knows her mother has a PO Box and knows that she checks it infrequently. Again, this points to someone the family knows, which is usually the case. They knew the letter wouldn't be found immediately, they knew it would take time to authenticate it (pointing to someone who not only knows the family but also is involved in the investigation or is aware of investigative techniques) and that would give them time to move from where the letter was sent and be hard to track. If I put a letter in the mail today it would most likely reach the recipient within 2 days. In two days, they could find out a lot more info about me than they could 2 weeks or a month after I dropped the letter off. It would also give me time to get back home and have no one be the wiser. Let's face it, anyone's husband could go to work for the day, travel 4 or 5 hours to a post office box somewhere in podunk, deposit a letter and be back in time for supper and no one would know.
This is all opinion, but I just feel in my gut that someone ZH knows has her daughter, if she's still alive. Right now all we really know was that sometime before 10/23, the day the letter was mailed, AH was alive. The letter could have been written at any time between the time she disappeared and the day it was sent. I wouldn't put too much stock in the date on the letter, AH could have been forced to write it the day she disappeared and the person who has her dated it 10/22. JMO

Well that's certainly true. And frankly, my feeling is that it is most likely that Abby is in the hands of a predator who has coerced/manipulated her, rather than a sex ring/professional traffickers.

But I'm open to all possibilities, because LE's statements about being vulnerable to sexual exploitation were in the context of Abby not having resources. And although that can also apply to a sex predator -meaning if she's alive, she could be housed by someone who is preying on her - because she has NOT been seen on the street and, since she has no money (if she was just a simple runaway one would think there would be more sightings), it can also apply to trafficking. (Which again, is not my first suspicion).

That's been my impression almost from the very beginning based on the way LE has handled the case, and the information (non-information) that's been released. If I had any doubt before, the message was loud and clear yesterday. IMO, anyway.

I have to disagree, gitana. "Traffickers" comprise a range of criminals, from the high level, international sex ring, to an operation involving one or two lone, exploitative miscreants. In some cases of organized trafficking, victims are told to contact family to say they are "safe". Let me see if I find a link.

That's true, too.

I think LE thinks Abby has access to a TV and/or a computer because how else would she read the letter that her mother wrote for her? Or what about the letter that her father wrote on FB for her? And if she's able to surf the net, I'm skeptical she's being held against her will. As for why LE is still involved in a case of a runaway, I'm not sure.

Perhaps because children who are runaways are still children and just as worthy of being found, and just as vulnerable to danger, as a kid who was taken.

Running away is not a crime in New Hampshire, to my knowledge and runaways often have serious family problems or mental health or other issues. They need our help.

LE has certainly not shown me much during this investigation. Those that are praising this bunch forget...NO Abby...NO results...

I think they have failed miserably in this investigation.

I mean really a 15 year old girl playing with all of these people. Unheard of.

They are keeping this investigation a secret and they have good reason to do that. If the taxpayers were to know all that really went on I think this group would be out on their ears!

You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time! Abraham Lincoln

MOO

Well, I don't think that failure to solve a crime quickly or bring home a missing person should be the standard by which we determine whether a LE institution is doing a good job or not. And who says this child is playing with anyone? She's a kid. And it's real life, not CSI.

Despite the best, most tireless and intelligent efforts on the part of actual professionals who have dedicated their lives to helping people like Abby, many cases can not be solved within a few days or weeks or even months. Some cannot e solved at all. Through not fault of anyone (but maybe the perps).

The bolded items really confuse me.

What do they mean by "if its a citizen that has her"?

No matter who has her, its not a good thing. Citizen or illegal alien ? What do they mean here?

Might lead to where we dont want to go ? WTH? Where is that? And who would send other letters?

Runaways....."after the abduction" WTH? Was it a runaway or an abduction or both ?

I kind of took the citizen thing to mean as opposed to Abby wandering around alone, without an adult. Most governmental agencies use the term "citizen" in these kinds of case, to mean their constituents or the people they are hired to serve, rather than a legal versus illegal thing.

I think Abby IS in grave danger. However, I think she's more likely to get out of this alive if she's caught up in an organized crime sex ring doing *advertiser censored* or forced to engage in prostitution. That said, I think she would be messed up emotionally and probably drug addicted, which would be challenging to overcome. With the sex ring theory, she'd be in the hands of career criminals and would have more value to them alive than dead. Whereas the lone wolf in the woods theory has her in the hands of a VERY sick and twisted person, a loner. No telling what he would do if he felt rejected or abandoned by her. MOO.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree 100%.

 

[Mom24]

Well that's certainly true. And frankly, my feeling is that it is most likely that Abby is in the hands of a predator who has coerced/manipulated her, rather than a sex ring/professional traffickers.

But I'm open to all possibilities, because LE's statements about being vulnerable to sexual exploitation were in the context of Abby not having resources, and although that can also apply to a sex predator - meaning if she's alive, she could be housed by someone who is preying on her - because she has NOT been seen on the street and, since she has no money, if she was just a simple runaway one would think there would be more sightings, it can also apply to trafficking. (Which again, is not my first suspicion).



That's true, too.



Perhaps because children who are runaways are still children and just as worthy of being found, and just as vulnerable to danger, as a kid who was taken.

Running away is not a crime in New Hampshire, to my knowledge and runaways often have serious family problems or mental health or other issues. They need our help.



Well, I don't think that failure to solve a crime quickly or bring home a missing person should be the standard by which we determine whether a LE institution is doing a good job or not. And who says this child is playing with anyone? She's a kid. And it's real life, not CSI.

Despite the best, most tireless and intelligent efforts on the part of actual professionals who have dedicated their lives to helping people like Abby, many cases can not be solved within a few days or weeks or even months. Some cannot e solved at all. Through not fault of anyone (but maybe the perps).



I kind of took the citizen thing to mean as opposed to Abby wandering around alone, without an adult. Most governmental agencies use the term "citizen" in these kinds of case, to mean their constituents or the people they are hired to serve, rather than a legal versus illegal thing.



I agree 100%.

BBM
Thank you for putting that so well. Best post so far, because when it comes right down to it runaway or not she's not in a safe situation and deserves the best possible help to get her home and safe.

 

[Mom24]

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20131209/NEWS07/131209362&template=mobileart
Father not convinced girl in video is Abigail Hernandez
CONWAY — A claim by a Massachusetts man who thinks he saw missing teenager Abby Hernandez in an Internet video is drawing a cautious reaction from the missing girl's father.

"She kind of looks like Abby, but I do not believe it's her," Ruben Hernandez said.

A man called The Brockton (Mass.) Enterprise Friday night claiming that he saw a video in which he saw a girl he thinks looks like the Conway girl who has been missing since early October. The newspaper said it passed the information along to Brockton police, who took a report from the man.

The newspaper quoted the man, whose name it did not release, as saying the girl "looked exactly like Abigail Hernandez. It could have been her twin sister."

<midsnip>

 

[Abstar80]

I've been thinking a bit about the psychology of seeing something that you feel you might be a tip, and what happens.

I recently had the occasion to come across some information that I felt might or might not be relevant to Abby's case. I am not going to divulge here what that lead was...LE has it, and I must have faith that they treat it well, as they can investigate much better than I can, with far many resources. (I made sure both the FBI and the State police got it) If I had gone to the media with my information, I'm pretty sure that they would have covered it based on what else I have seen them latch on to. (I have no intention of doing that)

But I do want to talk about my thought process.

I found the lead, and I went. Hey that might be important.
Then I thought...nah....I'm sure its nothing.
Then I thought..well what "if" and if I didn't do something and later found out it was vital than I wouldn't forgive myself.


So I reported knowing that what I was reporting was uncertain. If I had been certain I would have hesitated less. If I were not so involved in sleuthing her case, I might have just thought....nah, I'm sure this isn't relevant.

I also sought the opinion of others, and pretty universally we agreed that it was uncertain evidence, but maybe it was important. Everyone I showed the evidence to agreed it should be reported and that support helped me move forward. I wonder if the first person said...No, don't be stupid! I might have dropped it.

IN the past few days, a few tips by others have appeared in the media, in comment sections of FB groups and newspaper articles. In those cases, the person reporting to the media stated that they were absolutely certain that their tip was accurate, that they had seen Abby or a photo of Abby.
I thought..what does it take for someone to report a tip..and additionally what makes someone go to the media with a tip?

Perhaps they had to convince themselves 100% that the tip was true before reporting it, and once they did, it "become 100% true* in their own head.--even if in truth it was not rock solid evidence.
I experienced ambivalent feelings about reporting a tip I felt might not be true. I examined the evidence I had carefully, trying to discern how likely it was to be relevant. It would have been easy to talk myself into it if I were less self aware. Personally, I did not need to be 100% sure to report it, but I think others might really need to believe it--some people have a real issue with being wrong.

In the case that someone has talked themselves into believing the evidence they are reporting is genuine then some of these people might go to great lengths to push their evidence forward as a fact that cannot be ignored. Once a person believes what they have seen, they also want "credit" (reward money having an influence on this) Additionally, once the media gets a hold of a tip and publicizes it, I think the source of that tip is going to be inclined to defend it since now they are in the public eye.

Fortunately, I think most of us realize that sightings of Abby may or may not be her, or that photos might be her or might just be a girl that looks a lot like her.
We have the luxury here of speculating--actually it's our only choice as we don't have access to the resources and evidence that LE does.
I think the other lesson is to realize that some people are going to have a hard time reporting those "uncertain" tips--that they will doubt what they see, or hear--that they won't want to bother LE with evidence they feel is suspect.
Logically, it's easy for us to know that your uncertain evidence might collaborate or reinforce another piece of information, but since we dont' have the whole puzzle, we can't know that. It's important to keep telling the public that even a thought or evidence that they consider to be less than stalwart is important....LE can see the while puzzle, and they might have a valuable piece.

Thankyou for summing up the last 24 hours of my life!!! I came across something on a particular sight, that could be or very well could not be related to this.. I agonised over whether to send in the tip and even spoke to other sleuthers to gain their opinion on it....

I had to go with my gut and I forwarded the tip. I too am hoping that LE take it seriously and looks into it.

But you are absolutely correct the to-ing and fro-ing in regards to sending it in is a big process...But just like you, I thought it better to send it then to not.

 

[alreetlike]

I couldn't sleep at all last night and found myself staring at the ceiling thinking about this case and the letter, and going back and forth in my mind.

I tried to think about it from a few different angles, including Abby's. Assuming she did write the letter, on 22/10, she may or may not have anticipated that there would be a delay in her mom/whoever receiving it. But I thinks she would've expected the news of its arrival to have been released immediately. So (assuming she is safe and able to check the news) I just wonder what her reaction or thoughts were when there was no mention of the letter? Did she think it hadn't arrived?

Similarly, if a perp wrote the letter or coerced her into writing it, what was their reaction when the letter didn't get a mention? I just hope she wasn't harmed or worse as a result of the delay in releasing the news. A perp could be angered if a letter which was all part of their plan wasn't received or not given the attention they felt it deserved, and could have lashed out as a result.

 

[majikbeans]

There's something very strange about the father not wanting to be photographed. Add that together with the other oddities or "mistakes" and the editorial writer seems to be on the right track.
Oddities:
1. FBI involved in a possible runaway case (lots of runaways, why this kind of attention for this one?)
2. Dad won't appear in public.
3. Dogs did/did not follow her trail home. (orginally announced, then retracted.)
4. She did/did not use her phone at 6:30--originally announced, then retracted.
5. Letter was postmarked, but not received for 14 days.
6. Letter was not revealed to public for another month.
7. Her folks have been addressed her directly from the beginning, though it was an abduction(?).

Either there's something about the family that is of special interest for LE or there are a lot of baffled investigators out there.

 

[momrids6]

There's something very strange about the father not wanting to be photographed. Add that together with the other oddities or "mistakes" and the editorial writer seems to be on the right track.
Oddities:
1. FBI involved in a possible runaway case (lots of runaways, why this kind of attention for this one?)
2. Dad won't appear in public.
3. Dogs did/did not follow her trail home. (orginally announced, then retracted.)
4. She did/did not use her phone at 6:30--originally announced, then retracted.
5. Letter was postmarked, but not received for 14 days.
6. Letter was not revealed to public for another month.
7. Her folks have been addressed her directly from the beginning, though it was an abduction(?).

Either there's something about the family that is of special interest for LE or there are a lot of baffled investigators out there.

BBM: :loveyou:

 

[LORI5050]

Looks like the Good Morning America interview with ZH didn't give out any info that wasn't known already.. ZH looks exhausted.. Hoping now that Abby is getting national coverage someone will remember seeing her..

 

[KDutton]

Hi everyone! I've been lurking for awhile - finally decided to join. My husband and I live in southern NH and have been following this case from the beginning - I'm hooked on this case and pray Abby comes home soon - and safely!

I read something on facebook about her dad (RH) being CIA....what do you think the likelihood of that would be? I mean with all the hush hush regarding him and the FBI and Secret Service getting involved within a few hours of her disappearance.

 

[LookingHoping]

Looks like the Good Morning America interview with ZH didn't give out any info that wasn't known already.. ZH looks exhausted.. Hoping now that Abby is getting national coverage someone will remember seeing her..

I suspect as exhausting as the entire ordeal has been, the past 4 or 5 days have been doubly so with all the chaos and news coverage and interview. Yikes, that woman amazes me.

No new info, nope. More importantly, it gave a HUGE NEW PUSH... even more so than huge change in awareness since Friday's news conference. This is all positive for the end result of bringing Abby home.

 

[SurfieTX]

Hi everyone! I've been lurking for awhile - finally decided to join. My husband and I live in southern NH and have been following this case from the beginning - I'm hooked on this case and pray Abby comes home soon - and safely!

I read something on facebook about her dad (RH) being CIA....what do you think the likelihood of that would be? I mean with all the hush hush regarding him and the FBI and Secret Service getting involved within a few hours of her disappearance.

I suppose anything is possible at this point. One thing for sure is, I can't find any evidence of him being a practicing architect.

 

[tlcya]

:welcome: KDutton

There is no lack of rumors around this case coming from fb and other social media that's for sure. I had not heard that one. Seems a bit farfetched to me.

Again, welcome!

 

[Mom24]

Did anyone catch the interview? Just curious what was said and any new directions this is moving in.
ETA I just watched it on the GMA website.

 

[LookingHoping]

There's something very strange about the father not wanting to be photographed. Add that together with the other oddities or "mistakes" and the editorial writer seems to be on the right track.
Oddities:
1. FBI involved in a possible runaway case (lots of runaways, why this kind of attention for this one?)
2. Dad won't appear in public.
3. Dogs did/did not follow her trail home. (orginally announced, then retracted.)
4. She did/did not use her phone at 6:30--originally announced, then retracted.
5. Letter was postmarked, but not received for 14 days.
6. Letter was not revealed to public for another month.
7. Her folks have been addressed her directly from the beginning, though it was an abduction(?).

Either there's something about the family that is of special interest for LE or there are a lot of baffled investigators out there.

Commenting on some points here.

3. Abby had walked home before, regardless of that day, they'd have followed her scent from past walks. I'm SURE they followed her scent home, whether she made it home or not that day.

5. They said there was a basic reason for that whether it was postage, zipcode, whatever... doesn't sound like it is anything much to do with the case rather a postal issue. We just don't know. Again, I've had mail take that long, therefore I'm not putting much weight on that time frame. I had a regular piece of mailing coming from 125 miles away. It was consistently taking 10 plus business days and the sender ended up changing to use the priority mail system. I live in New England.

 

[CatFancier]

Please remember dad is not a POI or suspect and therefore not sleuthable...