NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00 #2

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So, going by this timeline, when was Marlyse possibly killed? Between the years of 1979-1981? So four years before the barrels were found?

It had to have been before he met Denise, right? And that means his other daughter had to have been born around 1979 since there is about a 2 year difference between her and Sarah?

But that would only make sense if his child was Marlyse’s child too, unless he was cheating on her. But if he killed his mistress at the same time as his child, then why didn’t she end up in the barrels with the rest?

So did Marlyse change her name to Elizabeth Evans or is EE the mother of his child? The timeline doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t understand where his child fits into the timeline and the two women.
I might be getting confused, but isn't TR's other daughter the middle child?

So more likely to be born '73-'76. I think.

ETA:. As Sarah was born in Dec. '77 then early '77 could be possible at a push too.
 
I might be getting confused, but isn't TR's other daughter the middle child?

So more likely to be born '73-'76. I think.

ETA:. As Sarah was born in Dec. '77 then early '77 could be possible at a push too.

It sounds to me that the most likely spot in the timeline is around 1975-1976, I am particularly interested in if his family finds Marlyse to resemble the 'unidentified woman' they saw when they last saw him. If not, then whoever he had with him when he visited them was likely the mother of his child.
 
This was the first case I discussed on Websleuths.

I have poured my heart and soul into this family, knowing that someone, somewhere out there knew these girls and was looking for them.

But every time a John Doe or Jane Doe turns out to be someone unreported, or at the very least their paperwork was mishandled by law enforcement, it gets my goat because that means that there’s yet another missing person out there who isn’t on any databases.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m glad that these females have been identified and that their family can now know, after forty years, what has happened to them. I only hope that they were unconscious when Rasmussen killed them.

The exact date of death is still an unknown, however. If the eldest girl was six at Thanksgiving 1978 (and the comparison blew me away) and the little girl was only a baby, then how accurate was the estimation of the elder daughter being 9-10 years old when she died? Or was the younger girl actually closer to 4 instead of 2-3? If the isotopes are right (and I still think of isotopes as being as useful as marshmallows in a blender) then the three spent the last several months to two years of their lives in the New England area, which probably puts their deaths at the end of 1980 or beginning of 1981 at the very latest, which could tie in with Rasmussen meeting Denise.

The fact that Marylse’s middle name was Elizabeth makes me wonder if she actually was THE Elizabeth that Rasmussen mentioned, or if this is another person entirely. After all, if he wanted to get Marylse as far away from her family as possible, then using her middle name instead of her noticeable first name would definitely work.

If not, then why did he seem to have an uncanny attraction to the names Elizabeth and Denise? Is this just a bunch of bizarre coincidences?

The problem with Rasmussen is that there are still a TON of questions that I fear may never be answered. The identity of the middle child is a big one. What motivated him to kill Marylse? How did they meet? How close to the truth was I when I theorised (way back on Page 72 of the first thread) that she guessed that he had killed or threatened to leave him and take the girls back to California?

At the beginning, I suspected that Marylse might have been a Jaycee Dugard, an Amanda Berry. I suggested many names. Was she Kathleen Shea, taken as a little girl in Pennsylvania way, way back in ’65? No.

Was she Patricia Spencer, a teenager lost with her friend in Michigan in ’69? I thought she had the same hair. No.

Other people gave similar suggestions. Maybe she was Nancy Baird, who disappeared back in ’74? No.

Was she Leslie Guthrie, Mary Stuart or Elaine Yates? All had vanished with two young children. No.

But the suggestion still spends chills down my spine. I believe, out of all the Jane Does (and even John Does) out there who have definitely died in violent ways, at least ONE of them is a Jaycee Dugard or a Steven Stayner.

And that makes this even more terrifying.

I only hope that Marylse was a good mother to her kids. To the middle child, if she looked after her. Violence towards a spouse or a young family member is such a terrible thing. We might focus all our time on serial killers or sexual predators but the real danger, proven time and time again, is inside our own homes.

When the first barrel was discovered, I was not born yet. When the second barrel was found, I was only a little girl, in elementary school. When I discovered this case, I was still growing physically. When I first wrote about their murders online, I was a fully developed young woman. But there is one reason that the case stuck with me when I grew older. I had children. I care for them just as Marylse would have cared for her girls.

If that doesn’t say how long these females have waited for their names, I truly don’t know what does.

Marylse, Marie, Sarah.

You have your names back. Your family can mourn for you. We here at Websleuths have done so much to try and name you, as have law enforcement and crusading volunteers for thirty-four years.

And if you are reading this, Marylse, know that I truly believe you thought you were doing what was best when you walked out on your family. No-one would have predicted what Rasmussen would have done.

And to you, Rasmussen, I say only this. You are in Hell. They are in Heaven. That speaks for itself. As I grew up Catholic, I firmly believe that you might have escaped the justice of the United States, but you haven’t escaped what comes afterwards.

We might never know how many Rasmussen murdered. How many more Marylses and Denises he took, or where they are. Or even how many Rasmussens are out there. But we will try. This story will go out and people will think, truly think, about what could have happened to friends and loved ones who left them long ago.

If this story helps to identify at least one more person or reconnect two more people, then this will not have been in vain.

Rest in Peace, Marylse, Marie and Sarah.

(Funny; I have writer’s block for a week and then I see this)
 
In that case, the unidentified girlfriend that met his family must be the mother and they should search Inglewood, TX since he said they were living there at the time. I don’t think it will be long before she is identified.

Or Arizona, since that’s where he was last seen with her.

So Marlyse must be Elizabeth then, and they were probably killed around 1980, right before he left NH.
 
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In that case, the unidentified girlfriend that met his family must be the mother and they should search Inglewood, TX since he said they were living there at the time. I don’t think it will be long before she is identified.

Or Arizona, since that’s where he was last seen with her.

So Marlyse must be Elizabeth then, and they were probably killed around 1980, right before he left NH.

From the presentation:
Child was likely born around 1975-1976, possibly in California, Texas or Arizona.
Christmas of 1975 or 1976, Rasmussen visits his family in Payson, AZ. He is in the company of an unidentified adult female.

Does anyone think the middle child looks a bit Asian? Could also be aboriginal North America/Mexico. When they do the DNA testing do they determine ethnic background?
 
From the presentation:
Child was likely born around 1975-1976, possibly in California, Texas or Arizona.
Christmas of 1975 or 1976, Rasmussen visits his family in Payson, AZ. He is in the company of an unidentified adult female.

Does anyone think the middle child looks a bit Asian? Could also be aboriginal North America/Mexico. When they do the DNA testing do they determine ethnic background?
Yeah , I was wondering why they didn't mention Ethnicity because she does not look White AT ALL!
 
From the presentation:
Child was likely born around 1975-1976, possibly in California, Texas or Arizona.
Christmas of 1975 or 1976, Rasmussen visits his family in Payson, AZ. He is in the company of an unidentified adult female.

Does anyone think the middle child looks a bit Asian? Could also be aboriginal North America/Mexico. When they do the DNA testing do they determine ethnic background?
I’m thinking the mother was from Mexico but living in the US when she met Rasmussen and had the child. Could be the reason why they haven’t identified her yet via genetic genealogy. I don’t think Ancestry.com and others are popular yet in Mexico and many other countries. I have thousands of matches through my father’s side (US) on Ancestry and GEDMatch but less than a handful on my mother’s side (Spain).
 
This isn't something we can discuss in thread but..anybody have access to yearbooks for Marie's schools for her 7-8th year that would be 2nd & 3rd grades right? I didnt even check her bday. Kindergarten probably wasn't mandatory yet. Maybe some of those children in the b-day party photo are in a yearbook. Idk if that's something we can sleuth? I know we couldnt mention them here right?
 
Here are just my thoughts and guesses based on what we now know.

I am going to work under the assumption Marlyse was Elizabeth Evans. A lot of people who know this case better than me have long speculated the oldest victim might be Elizabeth Evans because of the timing, the fact that there is no other likely candidate for Elizabeth, and the isotope evidence that the victims lived in New England before their deaths.

Marlyse having the middle name Elizabeth now makes that case a lot stronger. In fact, I'd argue her first name being Marlyse is also further evidence for this theory.

We know Terry Rasmussen was still calling himself Terry Rasmussen as of November 1978. Within a year or so, he would be calling himself Bob Evans. I will discuss later the different possible motives for him abandoning his birth name, but clearly he wanted a new identity. Not just a new identity, but a more generic identity.

Compare the name Terrence "Terry" Peder Rasmussen to the name Robert "Bob" Evans. Terry Rasmussen is much more memorable of a name. Terry Rasmussen is a guy who's probably pretty easy to find, if you're determined to look. His middle name is spelled in an unusual way, even if his first name is more common. Bob Evans, on the other hand, that's a forgettable name. That's a guy who's hard to find. If you go looking for Bob Evans, you'll turn up hundreds of people just in one state.

Now let's also look at Marlyse Elizabeth Honeychurch. Doesn't seem like there's *anyone* else by that name. Maybe Marlyse was a more common name in the '50s than it is today, but I haven't ever met a Marlyse. I've met plenty of Elizabeths, though. Elizabeth Evans is, like Bob Evans, an extremely forgettable and generic name.

As for why the name changes, there are four possibilities that jump out at me:

1. Something related to the custody situation with Marlyse's daughters. It seems like before her disappearance, their fathers were involved in their lives. Maybe one of them objected to Marlyse's plan to move across the country. Sarah's father had physical custody of her not long before they disappeared. It would make sense, with him being in the military, that he might've turned primary physical custody back over to Marlyse, but there's a huge difference between giving her primary physical custody (especially of a child who isn't in school yet and who's schedule can be more easily divided 50/50) and being okay with her taking their daughter too far away for him to regularly visit.

2. Something related to the custody situation with Terry's daughter.

3. Terry had murdered the mother of his daughter and was worried he might come under police suspicion.

4. Terry was concerned about being implicated in a totally different disappearance or murder.

I also think it's likely that Marlyse was motivated (and thought Terry was also motivated) primarily by reason 1 or 2, but Terry was really secretly motivated by reason 3 or 4. Whatever the reason, I suspect the name change was Terry's idea and he persuaded Marlyse to start going by her middle name rather than her more unusual first name. The last name change could've been just blending in more, but also probably stemmed from a marriage that wasn't legally binding like he had with Eunsoon Jun. He did list Elizabeth Evans as his wife, after all.

Well, it's already been speculated that if Elizabeth Evans was one of the victims, she was probably murdered between May and October of 1980, since in his arrests in February and May of 1980 he lists Elizabeth as his wife, but then in October 1980 he doesn't. I've seen it pointed out in the past on this site and others, again by people who know this case better than I do, that this timing could make sense with at least one of the children attending school, and Terry deciding to kill them over summer break to avoiding arousing suspicion. If one of the children was in school, this might've been a necessary precaution since Terry wanted to remain in the area, and did remain in the area for more than a year afterwards. The timing of when he would've had access to that location also seems to work with this timeline.

So a question I think amateur sleuths need to look into was whether or not Marie was in school and whether or not the middle child was in school. In order to keep a low profile, Terry might not have wanted the children in school, so of course it's a possibility that neither of them were. But there's also a possibility this could be the key to the middle child's identity.

I think there's a fair possibility Marie was enrolled in school. Assuming she was in school in California (and it would be unusual if she wasn't) both Marlyse and Marie herself would likely expect she'd be in school in New Hampshire. It shouldn't be too complicated of a matter to check the location Bob and Elizabeth Evans were living in during that period in early-to-mid 1980 and see what elementary school they would've been zoned for. Assuming NH had a similar age cutoff to what I'm familiar with, during the 1979-1980 school year, Marie would've been in second grade. I would also check first and third grade yearbooks to be sure.

There's of course the question of what name Marie would've been enrolled under. I doubt it was Marie Vaughn. Given Marie is a pretty common first name, and the difficulty of explaining to a child why she has to start using a new name, I think the first name might've been Marie. The last name may have been Evans, or it may have been another relatively common last name. Or it could've been something totally out of left field. But if she was in a yearbook, now we know exactly what she looked like and she shouldn't be hard to spot. If we know what name she was using and what school she was enrolled in, that opens up the door to finding children she may have known, and those children or their parents could be invaluable resources to finding out about Marie's life in New Hampshire and, crucially, the name of the other little girl who lived with her.

The middle child herself was probably too young to be enrolled in school, but I still think it could be worth looking into. See if there's a little girl who was in Kindergarten who resembles the image we have, or who was using the last name Evans. There's also the possibility, if she was born in 1975, that Terry was supposed to register her in school in the fall of 1980. Maybe he didn't want to do that? If she were enrolled in school, there would be greater scrutiny if she (or the family as a whole) just disappeared. With a step-daughter, Terry could always tell people her mother just left him and took her out of state. But with his own daughter it might be more complicated, especially if he'd told people he was a widower, as he did later when he was traveling with Lisa. Maybe his daughter's birth had never been registered at all, and while I don't think that would've been an impediment to putting her in school during that era, he might've hesitated to finally make her existence a matter of public record. He also might have been concerned with the middle child, and possibly Marie as well, telling their teachers things that could get him into trouble. Whatever his reasons, this might've been a point of contention with Marlyse. Whether either child had attended school in New Hampshire before or not, if September rolled around and he refused to register one or both of them for the new school year, that would probably have spurred on a conversation he didn't feel like having.

Another thing that fits well with a timeline where Marlyse was Elizabeth Evans and the victims were killed over the summer or early fall of 1980 is the fact that Terry Rasmussen made no distinction between his biological daughter and Marlyse's daughters. Not just in the fact that he killed them, but the timing and circumstances of their murders and where he placed the bodies. It almost goes without saying that he was incapable of loving his daughter, or being a father to any of the three girls, but if he hadn't known Marlyse or her children for very long, it's harder to imagine him deciding to kill his daughter who he presumably had raised since birth, at the same time for the same reason.

This crime makes sense as a type of family annihilation. Rasmussen selfishly decided he did not want to be in the role of husband and father anymore. Perhaps there was an argument with Marlyse that spurred it on, perhaps she was planning on leaving him, perhaps she wanted to go to the police over him abusing her or one of the children or some other crime he had committed. But ultimately he decided to murder not just Marlyse but all three children, two of whom were probably not old enough to be witnesses against him. If he had been with Marlyse for about two years, from 1978-1980, it would make sense for him to see them as a unit. If Marlyse had raised and loved his little girl along with her own, it makes sense that he would murder all three children together, at the same time and place, probably for the same reason. Tragically this type of crime is much more common than it should be. This aspect of the crime makes a lot less since if his relationship with Marlyse was more fleeting or if he'd spent less time with her children.

I think we now also have a crucial piece of information when it comes to finding out the identity of the middle child: that Terry Rasmussen was in Southern California using his own name as of fall 1978. Not just legally using his own name, but socially as well. It's hard for me to imagine him switching to another name and then resuming using his birth name, so that is probably the name he was using with his daughter's mother and her family, and they may have lived somewhere in that area around that time. It also makes a lot of sense now to work under the assumption that his daughter's mother was the woman who his older children met in 1975 or 1976. With all of this circumstantial evidence put together, I think we could be very close to the final piece of the puzzle.
 
This isn't something we can discuss in thread but..anybody have access to yearbooks for Marie's schools for her 7-8th year that would be 2nd & 3rd grades right? I didnt even check her bday. Kindergarten probably wasn't mandatory yet. Maybe some of those children in the b-day party photo are in a yearbook. Idk if that's something we can sleuth? I know we couldnt mention them here right?

Kindergarten was mandatory for most states in the 1970’s. Not pre-k.
There probably weren’t yearbooks for grade school children. They just did class pictures, with no names attached. Students had individual pictures taken only if their parents pre-paid for them. When the pictures were ready, your packet included your individual picture and a copy of the class picture.
 
the little girl in the lavender. i think that is the middle child.
I don’t see lavender. In the picture with the cake? Do you mean the taller dark haired girl, reddish/pink dress with white collar? She looks too old to be the middle child.

I’m looking at the front left in this picture. Sitting next to Marie.
upload_2019-6-6_19-11-40.jpeg
 
So heartbreaking to see below photo comparisons :( . Elizabeth was 24, Marie was 7 and Sara was one when they were last seen in November of 1978.


upload_2019-6-6_20-46-47-png.187922

(Source of photo - Help ID Me )

So spooky that they all just up and left straight after Thanksgiving of 1978, the same as Denise and Dawn/Lisa - Thanksgiving of 1981.

Eddit to add: Terry was about 10 years older then Elizabeth (24) when they met and about 15 years older then Denise (23) when he met her.

Denise Beaudin – The Charley Project
 
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For those who are questioning photos of Marie - Announcement from NCMEC: (parts bolded by me for reference)

BEAR BROOK MURDERS

Today New Hampshire authorities announced 3 of the 4 #Allenstown murder victims have been identified. DNA confirmed they are Marlyse Honeychurch and her two daughters Marie Vaughn and Sarah McWaters. They disappeared from California during November 1978.

While their names are now known, there are still several questions that remain. Authorities are seeking continued assistance from the public. The below photos appear to be taken during December 1977 or 1978 for Marie's birthday. Marie has been identified as the little girl in the white dress blowing out birthday candles. The location of where this photo was taken is unknown. The other children in the photos have not been identified.

If you have any information on where these photos were taken or who is in the photos, please call the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children at 1-800-THE-LOST, ncmectips@ncmec.org or contact the New Hampshire State Police Cold Case Unit at (603)223-3856, coldcaseunit@dos.nh.gov.

61851057_2653380651356492_1314724355850108928_n.jpg
61936268_2653380648023159_9032896525109297152_n.jpg


Help ID Me

So to answer everyone's question, if photos are from 77 ( a year before leaving) or 78 (just after they left) it is quite unlikely that middle child (Terry's child) would be in the photo with them. (Just in my own humble opinion).
 
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I don’t see lavender. In the picture with the cake? Do you mean the taller dark haired girl, reddish/pink dress with white collar? She looks too old to be the middle child.

I’m looking at the front left in this picture. Sitting next to Marie.
View attachment 187958

No, I’m not talking about that child. I’m talking about the one to Marie’s immediate left in the cake pic and the one sitting front left on the floor who is smaller and darker than Marie and wearing a lavender dress w a ruffle around the front
 
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