NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[carbuff]

Right, Jan Cotta, Wendy Eaton and Amy Billig are in CODIS so that might rule them out.
I'd like it if NamUs could name those that are in CODIS in the ruled out area.

Yes, they are likely a ruleout by default. Sometimes it's worth checking that it's the same kind of DNA (mtDNA or STR), but generally, you can assume that the ruleouts list includes the entire rest of the database.

 

[Roselvr]

Yes, they are likely a ruleout by default. Sometimes it's worth checking that it's the same kind of DNA (mtDNA or STR), but generally, you can assume that the ruleouts list includes the entire rest of the database.

I would not assume & would turn it in. Todd has told us there is no rule out by default. If it was in the same system the system would turn out names to check by hand; the systems do no matching on their own. I'll have to ask if I can quote what he told us Billy's Law page managers.

 

[Tssiemer]

Could they be from a polygamous family?

My first thought but they'd have the same father not same mothers unless they like inbred.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rainwater]

Delurking to make a suggestion as to who "Mom" Jane Doe might be. Paula Agnes Lynch, age 22, went missing from Ohio in 1978-she told her family she wanted to travel and "to go see the country". Paula's family last heard from her in 1978, when her mother received a card from Florida from Paula, and in 1979, when her brother received a postcard from her "from an unknown location". Paula's height is listed as 68 inches, a little taller than "Mom Jane Doe", but she has a resemblance to the recon. "Mom Doe" 's height is listed as an estimate. Because remains were skeletal, Paula's tattoos would not have existed when the UID was discovered. Paula's missing date is listed as January 1, which might be a default date. Paula only has DNA in the system.

Link to Paula's NAMUS: https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/20436/0/
Closeup of her photo is in images, as is a rather blurry photo of one of her tattoos.

I usually do not post on this thread, but I happened across Paula's NAMUS while looking for possible matches to another UID.

 

[Roselvr]

Carl; you did an awesome job on the family recons!

Made an album on Never Forget Me
NH- Adult Female and 3 Children- Allenstown New Hampshire

worked on their blurb todaY; ADDED THEIR LINKS

VICTIM 1 - MOTHER - Unidentified White Female - Estimated age: 23-32 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'2-5'7"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Curly, light brown hair, approximately four inches in length

The victim was discovered on November 10, 1985 in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire
Estimated Date of Death: 1-4 years prior - Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on November 10, 1985 in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2174
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/799ufnh.html
_____________________________

VICTIM 2 - OLDEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 5-10 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 4'3"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Possibly Native. Dark blonde or light brown, fine hair. Double-pierced ears.
Dentals: Shovel shaped anterior dentition.
Estimated Date of Death: 1-4 years prior - Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on November 10, 1985 in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2173
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/800ufnh.html
http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1100629
_____________________________

VICTIM 3 - MIDDLE AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 4-8 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 3'8"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Light brown; 5 inches long.
Estimated Date of Death: 16-19 years prior
Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on May 9, 2000 in in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2175
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/802ufnh.html
http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1100629
_____________________________

VICTIM 4 - YOUNGEST AGED GIRL - Estimated age: 1-3 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 2'5"
Distinguishing Characteristics: Fine blonde hair which was approximately 8 to 12 inches in length.
Estimated Date of Death: 16-19 years prior
Skeletal Remains - The victim was discovered on May 9, 2000 in in Allenstown, Merrimack County, New Hampshire

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/2176
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/801ufnh.html
http://www.missingkids.com/poster/NCMU/1100629

 

[Roselvr]

I thought it might be helpful to do more lifelike portrayals of what these four females might have looked like.

To get to an overall look for their faces, i am going with the theory that they were Albanian immigrants, as suggested by WS member RT51.



Looking at the facial structures depicted in the NCMEC recons, I do sort of get a Balkans vibe, particularly with the adult and the oldest girl. So I took the facial structures provided by NCMEC, and gave them typical Albanian faces. And just for good measure, I threw in a subtle Albanian flag image on the oldest girl's shirt, (But remember that there is no evidence that I know of to suggest that they are Albanian, and we should not presume that they are Albanian).

Keep in mind that these are just approximations of how these young ladies might have looked in life, and are not intended to be exact portrayals.

added to their wiki page

 

[carbuff]

I would not assume & would turn it in. Todd has told us there is no rule out by default. If it was in the same system the system would turn out names to check by hand; the systems do no matching on their own. I'll have to ask if I can quote what he told us Billy's Law page managers.

I would appreciate it if you could find that, because it contradicts what has been said elsewhere about DNA.

 

[Roselvr]

I asked if we're allowed to share what he said.

 

[Shane 65]

That was misinformation. The woman was never ruled out as being the mother.

 

[Shane 65]

I have to disagree with the above comment. The trailer park (from which you could throw a rock and almost hit the barrels) was NOT extensively researched. In the past 3 and a half years, I have spoken to dozens of people who lived in Bear Brook Gardens who were never approached by law enforcement. Not then. Not ever. And of the 10 families that currently live there, who have been there ever since the first barrel was found, 9 of those families never heard about the little girls found in 2000 until I showed up on their doorstep with a flyer. And the 10th family? They heard that a woman's body was found in 2000 (inaccurate) but never heard that DNA connected it to the bodies in the first barrel. I believe that this has remained a cold case due to one fundamental error- the assumption that people locally knew about the case. And the theory that everyone knew their neighbors in there? I have spent the last 2 years recreating that park and tracking down the residents and this is a common conversation: Me- so about your neighbor John Smith who lived 3 trailers from you. What do you remember about his family? Resident: John who? Me- John Smith. He lived there for 3 years, 1981-1984, he was a mechanic, had a few kids. Resident: Sorry, never heard of him.

 

[Roselvr]

That was misinformation. The woman was never ruled out as being the mother.

It was a mistake referring to Adult Victim 1 as the mother. Cut me a break; it was Christmas morning; their blurb/ narrative was incomplete. We are 2 people trying to bring cases we follow; have followed or know nothing about so we have to research. Its very time consuming. Add to that I do have a personal life; my grandson had just had a brain to lumbar MRI under anesthesia at not quite 17 months old; I am very disabled from 2 failed lumbar fusions; have rods & screws from L5S1 to my sacrum; live in horrible pain every day. My friend that I run the page with has been down with the flu for the last few weeks. I should have been focusing on bringing new cases in but was motivated to tackle this album.

I worked on removing mother today as I had time. Thankfully it was not as time consuming as I thought it would be to edit the main album blurb then for each photo.

 

[Roselvr]

I would appreciate it if you could find that, because it contradicts what has been said elsewhere about DNA.

I have not had a reply to my question asking if we can share it. Going to see if I can rewrite it in my own words.
Glad the thread got bumped because I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out which post we were in lol

 

[carbuff]

I have to disagree with the above comment. The trailer park (from which you could throw a rock and almost hit the barrels) was NOT extensively researched. In the past 3 and a half years, I have spoken to dozens of people who lived in Bear Brook Gardens who were never approached by law enforcement. Not then. Not ever. And of the 10 families that currently live there, who have been there ever since the first barrel was found, 9 of those families never heard about the little girls found in 2000 until I showed up on their doorstep with a flyer. And the 10th family? They heard that a woman's body was found in 2000 (inaccurate) but never heard that DNA connected it to the bodies in the first barrel. I believe that this has remained a cold case due to one fundamental error- the assumption that people locally knew about the case. And the theory that everyone knew their neighbors in there? I have spent the last 2 years recreating that park and tracking down the residents and this is a common conversation: Me- so about your neighbor John Smith who lived 3 trailers from you. What do you remember about his family? Resident: John who? Me- John Smith. He lived there for 3 years, 1981-1984, he was a mechanic, had a few kids. Resident: Sorry, never heard of him.

I think this likely reflects as much on people's memories as on the police work. One of the videos upthread shows people going door to door in the trailer park. When they found the first barrel, they canvassed the schools where we lived at the time, 40 miles away, looking for kids who might have suddenly stopped attending. (ETA: I'm not sure what happened after the second barrel; we had moved by then.)

I imagine when they went through the trailer park, they missed a few people who weren't home or whatever. I imagine there were others who were like, "You're interrupting my hockey game," not even listening to what they were being asked. And many who listened, looked, shrugged, and promptly forgot. There are people living in my neighborhood now who would deny there was ever a serial killer dumping bodies in town.

I think it's a general lesson to us when we're looking at UID's everywhere -- because we're so aware of things, we tend to assume everyone is. But that's often not true, even for cases that get a lot of local press coverage.

 

[carbuff]

I have not had a reply to my question asking if we can share it. Going to see if I can rewrite it in my own words.
Glad the thread got bumped because I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out which post we were in lol

I was just about to send you a message to let you know.

 

[Roselvr]

Identify These Victims FB Page
JaneDoe Allenstown FB Profile
Mystery in Allenstown, NH blog see the comments - THANK YOU to the former park residents who came out on Saturday to meet us! It was an encouragement to know people want to help identify these little girls. Later in the week, more maps of the park will be posted starting with the Stonybrook Ave section which is where we will be filling in names first. Shoot us an email if you lived in the park and haven't already heard from us! oakhillresearch@gmail.com


Click here if you lived in Bear Brook Gardens between 1977 and 1985

 

[LucyOso]

That was misinformation. The woman was never ruled out as being the mother.

It was a mistake referring to Adult Victim 1 as the mother. Cut me a break; it was Christmas morning; their blurb/ narrative was incomplete. We are 2 people trying to bring cases we follow; have followed or know nothing about so we have to research. Its very time consuming. Add to that I do have a personal life; my grandson had just had a brain to lumbar MRI under anesthesia at not quite 17 months old; I am very disabled from 2 failed lumbar fusions; have rods & screws from L5S1 to my sacrum; live in horrible pain every day. My friend that I run the page with has been down with the flu for the last few weeks. I should have been focusing on bringing new cases in but was motivated to tackle this album.

I worked on removing mother today as I had time. Thankfully it was not as time consuming as I thought it would be to edit the main album blurb then for each photo.

BBM. Folks, just a heads up...Many people, such as Rose have dedicated hours and hours and hours and hours to WS. Many of us make errors and mistakes when we research, gather information, and post it for other WSers to have easy access to. This happens. We are a team. Here for the same goal. It is very important to be respectful and realize that your fellow sleuthers are volunteers....they are not paid to do this job, they have other lives, family, and obligations. Everything is here is volunteerism. It takes a team...sometimes it does take a fresh set of eyes to get things up to date or current. When diasgreeing or pointing out a data error, please be polite and courteous. When posting under anonymous names we often forget social etiquette. It is very difficult to detect tone and intent, sarcasm or sincerity at times. As there aren't non-verbal cues we need to make certain we are communicating respectfully and our words match our intent. Anyway, I have witnessed a few threads get locked because folks aren't being polite. If disagreeing or pointing out a mistake, please use terms such as Respectfully, IMOO, etc. Thanks! :loveyou:

 

[Shane 65]

Clarification: someone on here quoted my website where I had posted incorrect information stating that DNA excluded the woman as being the mother of the children. When I realized this was not accurate, I posted the following line to correct my mistake "That was misinformation. The woman was never ruled out as being the mother." This was not meant to be disrespectful in any way. I simply wanted to correct erroneous information I had disseminated. These cases are far too important for any of us to indulge in drama and commentary about our own lives. My apologies for the confusion. Let us dignify the victims and our work by remaining objective.

 

[Roselvr]

Clarification: someone on here quoted my website where I had posted incorrect information stating that DNA excluded the woman as being the mother of the children. When I realized this was not accurate, I posted the following line to correct my mistake "That was misinformation. The woman was never ruled out as being the mother." This was not meant to be disrespectful in any way. I simply wanted to correct erroneous information I had disseminated. These cases are far too important for any of us to indulge in drama and commentary about our own lives. My apologies for the confusion. Let us dignify the victims and our work by remaining objective.

Sorry can we start from the beginning? I thought you were saying me naming the adult female the "mother" was incorrect. Can you go back through the post to what is incorrect? On each post is a "reply with quote" button, use that to bring that post to here so we can see what's not correct

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I'm so happy you are all breathing a little life into this thread! I think about this little family from time to time.

I wonder if we should explore the possibility that they were refugees who were resettled in the US.

Since refugee policy became more formal in the '80s there are nine volags (government-speak for "voluntary agencies") authorized to do refugee resettlement in the US. There may be more at the local level, or (more likely) the local agencies may work under one or more of the nine. From dhhs.nh.gov: "Refugee Program staff work closely with the two New Hampshire voluntary resettlement agencies (volags), Lutheran Social Services and the International Institute of New Hampshire, as well as other area partners to support refugee integration." Where I live, Catholic Charities seems to do most of it (of course the volga they are under is the US Catholic Conference of Bishops.) According to dhhs.nh.gov, "many of New Hampshire's refugees live in Manchester, Concord, Nashua, and Laconia." This being right in between Manchester (which seems to get the largest share) and Concord, this would make sense.

Below is information about refugees to Idaho in the '80s. Though not specific to New Hampshire, it reflects where refugees resettled in the U.S. were coming from at that time:

1980’s: Refugees arriving in Idaho during the decade of the 1980’s were primarily Southeast Asian and Eastern European. Those coming from Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were part of the ongoing exodus from the Communist domination of those countries. At the same time, refugees from Soviet-dominated Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria were being resettled in increasing numbers. U.S. refugee policy in the 1980’s was undeniable linked to vital foreign policy interests and the Cold War struggle between East and West."

I don't know if we talked to the local volag contacts if they could remember who some of the earliest and most active churches involved in resettlement were, or if there is a local Hungarian or Romanian ethnic organization full of old-timers with long memories. Just trying to think outside the box and they seem like they could be in the right place and time to be refugees and that might also explain the difficulty in identifying them.

 

[carbuff]

Yes, at the time, NH was a prosperous state that attracted a lot of immigrants and refugees. While my daughter was in school in Nashua, the school district conducted a survey in which they found that there were something like 60 different ethnic groups represented in the public school system, with 30-some different languages spoken in the home. (I don't remember the exact numbers.) In our smallish neighborhood alone, families spoke Hindi, French-Canadian, Vietnamese, and Cantonese. We had orthodox Jews, conservative Moslems, and Sikhs. We had Hmong and Romany. We had Lebanese Christians and Copts and even Scots.

Some of the groups had been there for many years -- since 1971, there's been a Greek Orthodox congregation, for instance -- so they were in a position to host refugees from those countries/nationalities. But when the computer industry tanked in the 90's, many of them moved away, to be replaced by later immigrants from the Caribbean, Russia, and Latin America.

Another thing that I'm not sure was ever looked into was the military aspect. In the 80's both Pease Air Force Base and the Navy Shipyard were both active and employed a large number of civilians, many of whom lived in the outlying areas. I don't think there'd be any way to trace them, though.