NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[Irish_Eyes]

How certain are they that she is not the mother? mDNA does go through mutations

Right you are, but here's my guess: The reason mtDNA is so useful is that the mutations are rare.

If the adult female had one mutation that differed her mtDNA from her own mother's, likely it would still indicate they were closely related. All her children would then inherit her "mutated" mtDNA, so they would be a perfect match to her. If the mutation occurred during cell replication in one of her children, the odds that the same mutation would occur at the same place on the DNA "chromosome" in all the children are so astronomical as to be impossible. So even if one of the children had a mutation, the other children likely would not.

My guess is that the related children have a mutation that she does not have, but are otherwise very closely related to her mtDNA line. Since she does not have the mutation it would rule her out as being their mother, but not a close maternal relative. I think I explained that right, in laymen's terms anyway.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Here are some easy articles about mtDNA and relatedness from a genealogy perspective. If they prove useful we can put them in the help and info section also:

http://genealogy.about.com/cs/geneticgenealogy/a/dna_tests.htm

http://genealogy.about.com/od/dna_genetics/a/genetic_basics_2.htm

 

[reasypeasy]

Another possibility is her mitochondrial DNA is a perfect match, but they've managed to decipher enough of the nuclear DNA for at least one location to work out that she's can't be the mother. Let's say she's a sister of the other two. For a given spot on the code she inherits gene A from her mother and gene B from her father. Her sibling inherits gene C from their mother and gene D from their father. Full siblings, but they share none of the same genes at that one location. From their genes alone you would know they can't be related in a parent/child way.

Or maybe it is just obvious she's never been pregnant?

Still, I wouldn't totally rule out that she's a sibling of the two kids she's related to. Aunt or cousin is more likely, but sibling is not impossible either, if their mother started having babies early in life.

 

[websurfer]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/489dfri.html

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/490dfri.html

This is under 1 year though between the disapearance and the bodies being found but it is a mother and daughters and RI is near NH. Mother could have met some one, run off with him with the kids, all of them murdered by this person.

3rd child, the one between 5-10 yo could be this one
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/213dfnh.html

What do ya'll think?

I was researching this case last night and had a strong feeling that these ARE the vicitims...
and the other two who resembled them are not related unless distant?
So I will read further maybe I missed the tests having been done?
But definately needs a second look...:whoosh:

 

[websurfer]

Here are some easy articles about mtDNA and relatedness from a genealogy perspective. If they prove useful we can put them in the help and info section also:

http://genealogy.about.com/cs/geneticgenealogy/a/dna_tests.htm

http://genealogy.about.com/od/dna_genetics/a/genetic_basics_2.htm

The woman with her two girls could be the YATES MOM & daughters?
Maybe she was going to a family member to stay with in hiding and got found
out by whomever did this?
or maybe she met a person along the way who seemed nice but ended up doing this?:waiting:

 

[Lavanda Dolce]

I was researching this case last night and had a strong feeling that these ARE the vicitims...
and the other two who resembled them are not related unless distant?
So I will read further maybe I missed the tests having been done?
But definately needs a second look...:whoosh:

They stated the "mother" is not the birth mother of the children...but may be related. The mom missing from RI is the birth mother of her children...at least I am going to assume that is the case. I would also think that being the family went missing 3 months prior to the bodies found that with the media attention someone would have inquired back then? Again...another assumption. JMO

 

[Wanting2Help]

Any chance the unrelated child's disappearance is unrelated to the others'?

Doubtful considering they were all found in barrels. Same MO.

Couldn't it just be that it was the same person doing the murdering and the child was not living with the others that were found?

Since 2 of them where found at a later time is it confirmed that they all died at the same time? And were they placed in the location that they were found in at the same time?

 

[Ambercat]

Something that I found odd was the little girl who is ranged from the age of 5 to 10 had her ears double pierced. That may be something to look into when searching the missing people sites. That just seems to be something that is not the norm for girls of this age.

Mel

I noticed that, too. Plus, I don't remember that being popular (multiple ear piercing) until the later 1980s.

How hard was it to cross over the border from Canada in the 1970s and 1980s? Was it something that people did regularly to purchase certain items that might be less on the US side back then? How far were they found from the closest Canadian border crossing?

Maybe I missed this in the thread, but I was thinking, assuming the grown woman is the sister of of the mother of two of the girls, could the other girl be the child of the grown woman's brother or they are absolutely not related at all?

 

[Ambercat]

Exclusions were added on July 3, 2012 on NamUs for two of the girls.

For NamUs UP # 2175 (the 4 to 8 year old girl https://identifyus.org/cases/2175, Kimberly Yates is now listed as a rule out.

NamUs UP # 2176 (the 1 to 3 year old little girl https://identifyus.org/cases/2176 now has two rule outs -- Melissa Bustamante and Kelly Yates.

 

[LucyOso]

This is so crazy..how does a woman and 3 children go missing and NOBODY misses them or reports them missing...I have been all over looking to see if there are any similar cases of missing persons and have not found anything..please correct me if I am wrong. It is bad enough when one person is found and can not be identified but 4?? How can a woman and 3 children disappear and noone is missing them, like they never existed. This is so sad!! I hope they can be identified and buried with their true identities and the person responsible punished!

I was thinking the same thing. But, I also was thinking about the Franklin Floyd case, where he abducted a young girl at some point (or bought her)...she is still unidentified. With the mother, it is very possible, if she is listed somewhere as missing, that family members do NOT even know of the children. Even if she was not abducted, etc.

The other thing, too could be a cult like or religious organization or commune situation where during the late 1970's and early 80's children are born and not recorded on birth registries, etc. Often, those children did not obtain birth certificates until they were 18 years old.

 

[LucyOso]

Absolutely correct! Utilize all sources available. NEVER keep yourself restricted to one source. Thanks for pointing that out. Also...remember...Canada is not too far of a distance and their sites can be checked as well.

I have a question. I do not know too much about DNA testing. But, is it possible to enter all four victim's DNA profiles into the criminal databases to see if it comes up with a "relative match"? I have heard of matches being made that way, but, not certain how that works in term of rights violations a perps DNA was not at the scene. I am not even certain if there is a national registry. Any information would be great. Thank you!

 

[CarlK90245]

I have a question. I do not know too much about DNA testing. But, is it possible to enter all four victim's DNA profiles into the criminal databases to see if it comes up with a "relative match"? I have heard of matches being made that way, but, not certain how that works in term of rights violations a perps DNA was not at the scene. I am not even certain if there is a national registry. Any information would be great. Thank you!

There are limitations to cross-referencing the CODIS UID database to the CODIS database of criminals and crime-scene evidence.

For example, the DNA of missing persons' family members cannot be run through the database of crime scene evidence to see if those family members can be linked to an unsolved crime.

However, I'm not sure if they can run the DNA taken from a UID through the database of known offenders.

 

[Queenofwands]

Any news on the Isotope testing?

 

[websurfer]

I find it very disturbing that a woman and children are missing [ dead] and
still nobody is trying to identify them?
like everyone here i too have searched high and low still no luck finding
any matches.

Cult members yes maybe?

perhaps: anything being possible such as this , recently I read about
the illegitimate daughter of Loretta Young with Clark Gable, the daughter was given up [ not really] she was in an orphanage until Loretta could secretly adopt her own daughter.
So?
It is very possible that someone had a secret family?
A man had a secret second perhaps third family stashed and then when the children started talking, asking questions and perhaps were at the age to attend school, the family man decided to kill them rather than contend with
the problems of going public?
Also, why hasn't some school questioned an abrupt departure of that many children?Or someone?
Church?
Some sort of organization?
:what:

 

[Varye]

Could it be possible that the woman was abducted when she was a child and held against her will? Her abductor could have fathered the children. That would explain why no one is looking for a woman and 3 children. I think we should be looking at 70's missing girls. What do ya all think?

 

[CarlK90245]

Could it be possible that the woman was abducted when she was a child and held against her will? Her abductor could have fathered the children. That would explain why no one is looking for a woman and 3 children. I think we should be looking at 70's missing girls. What do ya all think?

I liked RT51's theory about Albanian immigrants.

I live very near Allenstown. It is a very small poor town, with a few trailer parks. It is possible they were transients looking for work. (not the children, of course) This area is also high for Albanian transplants. There are a couple of small factories in the area that pay little so hire many of the transplants.

Allenstown is about 10 miles north of the major city of Manchester. (Largest city in NH with about 120K residents)

It would make perfect sense if they were a family of immigrants who made very little contact with the community around them. I'm not sure how the one child who is not biologically connected to the others fits into that scenario though.

 

[Sleuthster]

I noticed that, too. Plus, I don't remember that being popular (multiple ear piercing) until the later 1980s.

How hard was it to cross over the border from Canada in the 1970s and 1980s? Was it something that people did regularly to purchase certain items that might be less on the US side back then? How far were they found from the closest Canadian border crossing?

Maybe I missed this in the thread, but I was thinking, assuming the grown woman is the sister of of the mother of two of the girls, could the other girl be the child of the grown woman's brother or they are absolutely not related at all?

I had my second set done at the mall in 1981-82 I was 15 and it was popular then. 3rd set done at 17 by my friend after a few miller beers.

 

[Sleuthster]

I found a website with news articles copied to their site.
http://oakhillresearch.blogspot.com/


Reading through them, it is apparent that the oldest child and the adult where found next to a barrel wrapped in plastic (simular to garbage bag plastic) in 1985 and where apparently in the barrel together at one point. They are related but she is not the mother. The second barrel was found in 2000 by LE looking around the original site and came across a barrel with remains of youngest and middle child in the barrel together. Youngest materially connected to the first 2 females found in 1985.

There are many possiblities with this said.

adult is relative of the 2 and 3rd child adopted child?

adult is relative to the 2 and was babysiting the other child?

adult is relative to the 2 and was driving them and their friend somewhere?

adult is relative of the 2 and other child was playmate visiting their home?

I just cant see why there would not be atleast 1 of 2 families looking for their child. I think that is possibly the clue. A babysitter abduction/kidnapping for the middle child not related or that's what the family believes because the child was with this woman and 2 other kids related and their child did not come home. Do we have any missing children with that MO?

 

[Sleuthster]

Also, there is the possiblity that the middle child was abducted in seperate incident and placed in barrel with youngest child.

She had an overbite.


Here is one that makes me wonder
http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US


BTW, I noticed that Christopher Wilder ended his rampage in 1984 in Colebrook,NH which is straight up the interstate from Allenstown towards the Canadian Border. I'll have to see if this fits his MO. He would have driven right by Allenstown if he took the interstate from Beverly Ma where he was seen trying to abduct a women and then ended up in Colebrook.

 

[CarlK90245]

BTW, I noticed that Christopher Wilder ended his rampage in 1984 in Colebrook,NH which is straight up the interstate from Allenstown towards the Canadian Border. I'll have to see if this fits his MO. He would have driven right by Allenstown if he took the interstate from Beverly Ma where he was seen trying to abduct a women and then ended up in Colebrook.

I can't see this being related to Wilder. He was driving through NH in the Trans Am that he took from his last victim Beth Dodge. He had just dropped off Tina Risico at Logan Airport in Boston, and headed into New Hampshire after an unsuccessful attempt to abduct another victim.

Shortly afterward, he was spotted by two NH state troopers in a gas station, where he died in a struggle with one of the troopers.

There was not time to abduct the four Allenstown victims, place their bodies in barrels, and transport them to the dumping ground in the Trans Am. Also, while on the road he would be very unlikely to have access to the barrels.