Found Deceased NH - Elizabeth Lamotte, 16, Manchester, 6 April 1984

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Oh wow! I am so thrilled she has been identified! I was looking at her Doe case not too long ago when Epsy Pilgrim and Tina Farmer were Identified. I check unidentified wiki almost daily and recognised her name immediately from the Rasmussen investigation. I wish William and her family all the best with dealing with this discovery.
 
According to this article: Remains of teen missing from Manchester since 1984 identified because of Bob Evans case
She went missing Nov, 22, 1984 from a youth detention center. Not April, 6, 1984 as it's listed on this thread.
According to this article: Remains of N.H. teen missing since 1984 ID’d - The Boston Globe
During the "Bob Evans" (Rasmussen) investigation a tip came in suggesting maybe Elizabeth was "Elizabeth Evans" who signed mail for him in 1980. Her missing persons report was filed in 2017 as a result. Her brothers submitted DNA samples is what ultimately solved the case.
 
I had been working for an hour comparing her case to the other Redhead murders and my page reloaded and erased everything! Let's see what I can remember.

As for the redhead murders

Tina Farmer was found in La Follotte, Tennesse on January, 1, 1985. She had been missing since Thanksgiving day of 1984 from Indianapolis, Indiana. She was 10-12 weeks pregnant at her time of death.

Elizabeth Lamotte was found in Greeneville, Tennesse on April, 14, 1985. She was missing from Manchester, New Hampshire since November, 22, 1984. She had recently had a miscarriage and had been 6-8 weeks pregnant.

Espy Pilgrim was found on April, 1, 1985 in Gray, Kentucky. She was missing from Spindale, North Carolina. No date was listed.

Each girls estimated date of death interval:
Tina Farmer- 3 days- December, 28, 1984
Elizabeth Lamotte- 3-6 weeks- March, 3-24, 1985
Espy Pilgrim- 1-4 days- March, 28-31, 1985

Distance apart from where each was found:
Tina was found in La Follotte, Tennessee which is 1 hour and 49 minutes from Greeneville, Tennessee where Elizabeth was found roughly two months later.
Espy was found in Gray, Kentucky which is 2 hours and 12 minutes from Greeneville, Tennessee and was shortly after Elizabeth who was killed at least a week earlier.

As for two victims being pregnant and being found not far or long time apart from one another, I wondered if this was a Ariel Castro type situation where someone kidnapped and held several women captive. In this case a truck driver. However; Tina Farmer was found around 6 weeks after she went missing and was estimated to be about 10-12 weeks pregnant. Before this discovery I wondered if we could do DNA on the child and discover the potential killer.

The close time frame in the killings reminds me of the Green River killer. I believe all the women were victims of hitchhiker abduction. IMO Lamotte or Farmer could have been held for some time.

Of note: this is under the speculation that the redhead murders were from the same person.
 
Does anyone know why her dates of disappearances might differ?

April, 6 and November, 22.

That does clear up why she is listed as 16 years old in some places and then 17 in others.

Her DOB: July, 27, 1967.
She shared a birthday with my sister and uncle :)
 
aThousandYearsWide said:
According to this article: Remains of teen missing from Manchester since 1984 identified because of Bob Evans case
She went missing Nov, 22, 1984 from a youth detention center. Not April, 6, 1984 as it's listed on this thread.
According to this article: Remains of N.H. teen missing since 1984 ID’d - The Boston Globe
During the "Bob Evans" (Rasmussen) investigation a tip came in suggesting maybe Elizabeth was "Elizabeth Evans" who signed mail for him in 1980. Her missing persons report was filed in 2017 as a result. Her brothers submitted DNA samples is what ultimately solved the case.
Click to expand...

aThousandYearsWide said:
Does anyone know why her dates of disappearances might differ?

April, 6 and November, 22.

That does clear up why she is listed as 16 years old in some places and then 17 in others.

Her DOB: July, 27, 1967.
She shared a birthday with my sister and uncle :)
Click to expand...

Just speculating, but I wonder if April was the last time her family saw her. Maybe she went into the youth detention center in Apr and disappeared from there in Nov?

Also, while I'm glad a tip from the Bob Evan's case got DNA collected and ultimately led to this being solved, I'm stumped on why anyone would think she could be the Elizabeth who signed for mail for Bob Evans in 1980. She wasn't missing yet then and would have been only 12 or 13 years old. I think it may be more likely that because of the Bob Evans case publicity ALL the missing persons cases in the area got a closer look. JMO.

I wonder if TN might have saved tissue from the miscarried fetus and if they could test it for DNA now to try to determine paternity? Probably unlikely they kept a sample, but if they did that could yield clues as to how Elizabeth ended up in Tennessee.
 
Alleykins said:
The way I read the case, she was no longer pregnant when the remains were found, it was indicated first trimester pregnancy had recently occurred.
Click to expand...

Thanks Alleykins. It is confusing to me how they determined that. In 2006 the Doe Network page said she was 6 weeks pregnant. See post #14 here: Identified! - TN - Greene Co., WhtFem 264UFTN, 14-20, recent loss of pregnancy, Apr'85 - Elizabeth Lamotte
The description later changed to say she had miscarried shortly before death. Was this simply an error in the 2006 posting? Or I wonder if perhaps they were able to determine that detail by some test of fetal tissue that would show the fetus was not viable at the time of Elizabeth's death? Not to be gross, but it is possible to miscarry and still retain part of the fetal tissue. At 6 weeks gestation (and in 1985 knowledge) it could be difficult to tell if it was an intact fetus. I wonder if perhaps at first look it appeared she was pregnant but upon further examination or some new tests that didn't exist in 1985, perhaps it was discovered it was a partially miscarried fetus? Just speculating. If they have fetal tissue maybe they can test for paternity. It's faint hope I suppose.

I'm also still considering Elizabeth could be one of Bob Evan's victims. Her cause of death was a blow to the head. And Bob Evans suddenly left his job and moved to a new location in May of 1985 (when he was pulled over for a DUI): Case timeline: Killer Terry Peder Rasmussen, also known as 'Bob Evans'
One month after Elizabeth's body for found. Coincidence?
 
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Alleykins said:
The way I read the case, she was no longer pregnant when the remains were found, it was indicated first trimester pregnancy had recently occurred.
Click to expand...
How can they then know how far along she was when she miscarried? I'm not disputing your point, just trying to work it out in my head? Unless she miscarried at the time she was murdered which is horrific to consider but possible, and the fetal remains may have been found with her body. I'm not sure how else they could tell.

Edited to add: this feels like such a morbid and distressing topic, the only reason I'm discussing it is, if as Gardener mentioned, they may have the remains still to do DNA testing on.
 
sunnynz said:
How can they then know how far along she was when she miscarried? I'm not disputing your point, just trying to work it out in my head? Unless she miscarried at the time she was murdered which is horrific to consider but possible, and the fetal remains may have been found with her body. I'm not sure how else they could tell.

Edited to add: this feels like such a morbid and distressing topic, the only reason I'm discussing it is, if as Gardener mentioned, they may have the remains still to do DNA testing on.
Click to expand...

I don't know how investigators can know how far along she was. Maybe hormone levels or the size of her uterus? I'm guessing, thought. I was just going on my interpretation of what was stated in Doe Network. (bbm)
She had been approximately 6-8 weeks pregnant but had recently lost the pregnancy shortly before death. There was no evidence of previous childbirth. No identifiable marks noted
Click to expand...
 
Snipped for focus

Gardener1850 said:
I'm also still considering Elizabeth could be one of Bob Evan's victims. Her cause of death was a blow to the head. And Bob Evans suddenly left his job and moved to a new location in May of 1985 (when he was pulled over for a DUI): Case timeline: Killer Terry Peder Rasmussen, also known as 'Bob Evans'
One month after Elizabeth's body for found. Coincidence?
Click to expand...

Bob Evans lived in that period in California and disappeared in May 1985 due to drunken car crash with baby Lisa in the car and facing very likely charges for it. Also in that month he lost his job there.

Elizabeth disappeared in '84 when Bob was already living in CA. She was discovered on April 14 of '85, with post mortem of few weeks, hence her demise was sometimes in March if not even prior to that. Bob was still living in Ca.

Death by blunt force trauma is unfortunately quite common cause of death in female murder victims too.

I personally do not see any parallels between Elizabeth and Bob Evans case (apart that she was called Elizabeth and came from NH). Much bigger likelihood that she could be Red head serial killer's victim or someone completely unrelated.
 
Al Ka said:
Snipped for focus



Bob Evans lived in that period in California and disappeared in May 1985 due to drunken car crash with baby Lisa in the car and facing very likely charges for it. Also in that month he lost his job there.

Elizabeth disappeared in '84 when Bob was already living in CA. She was discovered on April 14 of '85, with post mortem of few weeks, hence her demise was sometimes in March if not even prior to that. Bob was still living in Ca.

Death by blunt force trauma is unfortunately quite common cause of death in female murder victims too.

I personally do not see any parallels between Elizabeth and Bob Evans case (apart that she was called Elizabeth and came from NH). Much bigger likelihood that she could be Red head serial killer's victim or someone completely unrelated.
Click to expand...

You could be right. I don't know anything about the Redhead Murders. I just know that Evans/TPR traveled all over the country and at one point he was seen in California with Lisa and an unknown woman who was not Lisa's mother. In 1984 the Allenstown victims had not yet been discovered. I would not put it past Evans to have traveled back and forth between locations at least up to the time that the first barrel was found. I also would not be surprised if he lured victims from places he lived previously with the promise of a relationship. But you are probably right. The fact that Elizabeth lived in the same town as a serial killer who was known to impregnate his victims and take them across the country in order to cut off all ties with their friends and family members, and the fact that Elizabeth was recently pregnant and murdered far away from home may be mere coincidences.
 
Gardener1850 said:
Just speculating, but I wonder if April was the last time her family saw her. Maybe she went into the youth detention center in Apr and disappeared from there in Nov?

Also, while I'm glad a tip from the Bob Evan's case got DNA collected and ultimately led to this being solved, I'm stumped on why anyone would think she could be the Elizabeth who signed for mail for Bob Evans in 1980. She wasn't missing yet then and would have been only 12 or 13 years old. I think it may be more likely that because of the Bob Evans case publicity ALL the missing persons cases in the area got a closer look. JMO.

I wonder if TN might have saved tissue from the miscarried fetus and if they could test it for DNA now to try to determine paternity? Probably unlikely they kept a sample, but if they did that could yield clues as to how Elizabeth ended up in Tennessee.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if the date was from a previous missing report prior to being placed in the youth center. She wasn't reported missing until 2017 when the Bob Evans case was in full swing. The youth center failed to report her missing which her family may not have been aware of. The system failed her right there just like Shannon Aumock who also wasn't reported missing in similar circumstances. In June of 1985 which would have been Elizabeth's 18th birthday the detention center dropped her case and that was that. Her family never stopped though, there is a ancestry entry from 2000 mentioning Elizabeth and asking for help of her whereabouts.

As for possibly why she was thought of for 'Elizabeth Evans'. It was a tipster that said there was a Elizabeth that went missing from Manchester in the 80's. I thought the same thing though, she would have been so young!

Remains of 1985 murder victim linked to teen who went missing in 1984

I think she ended up in Tennessee because he was truck driver who preyed on hitchhikers. Several of the other suspected Redhead murder victims were far from home as well.
 
Gardener1850 said:
The description later changed to say she had miscarried shortly before death. Was this simply an error in the 2006 posting? Or I wonder if perhaps they were able to determine that detail by some test of fetal tissue that would show the fetus was not viable at the time of Elizabeth's death? Not to be gross, but it is possible to miscarry and still retain part of the fetal tissue. At 6 weeks gestation (and in 1985 knowledge) it could be difficult to tell if it was an intact fetus. I wonder if perhaps at first look it appeared she was pregnant but upon further examination or some new tests that didn't exist in 1985, perhaps it was discovered it was a partially miscarried fetus? Just speculating. If they have fetal tissue maybe they can test for paternity.
Click to expand...
I've wondered if DNA testing could reveal the killer as well. It was able to be done in Reyna Marroquin's case and her remains were found in 1999 and she was killed in 1969. They linked her baby's DNA to her married boss.

As for the other stuff (morbid stuff) something similar happened in Lacy Peterson's case. I will direct message you.
 
aThousandYearsWide said:
I was wondering if the date was from a previous missing report prior to being placed in the youth center. She wasn't reported missing until 2017 when the Bob Evans case was in full swing. The youth center failed to report her missing which her family may not have been aware of. The system failed her right there just like Shannon Aumock who also wasn't reported missing in similar circumstances. In June of 1985 which would have been Elizabeth's 18th birthday the detention center dropped her case and that was that. Her family never stopped though, there is a ancestry entry from 2000 mentioning Elizabeth and asking for help of her whereabouts.

As for possibly why she was thought of for 'Elizabeth Evans'. It was a tipster that said there was a Elizabeth that went missing from Manchester in the 80's. I thought the same thing though, she would have been so young!

Remains of 1985 murder victim linked to teen who went missing in 1984

I think she ended up in Tennessee because he was truck driver who preyed on hitchhikers. Several of the other suspected Redhead murder victims were far from home as well.
Click to expand...
Correction: Elizabeth was born in July not June. I should know better since she shares a birthday with my sister.
 
aThousandYearsWide said:
I've wondered if DNA testing could reveal the killer as well. It was able to be done in Reyna Marroquin's case and her remains were found in 1999 and she was killed in 1969. They linked her baby's DNA to her married boss.

As for the other stuff (morbid stuff) something similar happened in Lacy Peterson's case..
Click to expand...

Thanks. I have put the Redhead Murders thread on my watch list to read later. I'm still trying to catch up with too many other threads.
 
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