NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[MadamReporter]

BBM

This is not as crazy as you may think. There are some real nomads out there that actually hike and camp during the winter in the WMNF so while there is not an abundance of these folks, there are some. A quick explanation to a good Samaritan that she had a campsite a little ways into the woods, up the road a bit and needed a lift due to car trouble may have sufficed.

I think it would be obvious to any random driver who stopped to pick her up that Maura was not a nomad who enjoyed camping in the winter. She had but one backpack with clinking glass bottles in it. I'm going to assume that winter campers/nomads look like they've been out in the cold for a while, not the neatly dressed girl we saw footage of buying alcohol that night. Also, I think a request by a young girl all alone to be dropped off at her "campsite" in the dead of winter is something so unusual that it would be remembered by someone who just stopped to help her.

Also, I think we seem to forget that this is a pitch-black forest that everyone is speculating that she just sprinted into. Stepping back and looking at this logically, I can't fathom a female all alone would run into a pitch-black forest. I'm sorry, I just can't. That makes absolutely no sense. Women don't like to walk to their cars alone at night, let alone run into complete darkness in the freezing cold on purpose, especially knowing you have no cell-phone service. The dogs lost the scent a few hundred feet away from the accident scene for a reason.

 

[OldSteve]

I think it would be obvious to any random driver who stopped to pick her up that Maura was not a nomad who enjoyed camping in the winter. She had but one backpack with clinking glass bottles in it. I'm going to assume that winter campers/nomads look like they've been out in the cold for a while, not the neatly dressed girl we saw footage of buying alcohol that night. Also, I think a request by a young girl all alone to be dropped off at her "campsite" in the dead of winter is something so unusual that it would be remembered by someone who just stopped to help her.

Also, I think we seem to forget that this is a pitch-black forest that everyone is speculating that she just sprinted into. Stepping back and looking at this logically, I can't fathom a female all alone would run into a pitch-black forest. I'm sorry, I just can't. That makes absolutely no sense. Women don't like to walk to their cars alone at night, let alone run into complete darkness in the freezing cold on purpose, especially knowing you have no cell-phone service. The dogs lost the scent a few hundred feet away from the accident scene for a reason.

As someone new to this thread - :welcome: MadamReporter!
Also, good logic - gets back to that flashlight question I've been asking about for some time now.

As night runners, wife and I had to use one sometimes two. A friend tried it once without a light and severely hurt his ankle, just by tripping over just a small stone in the road. Even with a light you have to be careful, and much better with two runners...
The video a few posts back shows road after a snow and plowing - during the daylight! - cannot imagine it at night! Moon should have been rising but it would be later, since if I calculated it right is was days past full, and moonlight is only good when overhead (much later at night, and not sure how it would have been there...

Also, not sure about her shoes... anyone picking up would see she had on running/walking, not hiking boots.. Also after crash, don't know condition of her face...

If I were her I would gone to the empty, under construction house near the crash to lay low till daybreak.. avoiding the DUI, and go to car. She left her jewelry in the trunk...

Other than that, I would try to back track to weathered barn... but if she did, she should have been seen by LE coming from that direction...

So - I think after first refusing help from the bus driver, she got out of her car and walked toward his place to check it out... and getting her bearing. It how I think the mind would work - first refusing, but then having second thoughts without being under pressure to say yes or no to the burly guy.. His bus was in his driveway and she may have seen it...

Then something happened at that point...

The sighting given by the construction worker of her some 5? miles away is odd...

 

[Fireweed]

I do not put that much credence into the tracker dog. I think it detracts from more logical explanations for what happened to Maura.

 

[MadamReporter]

I do not put that much credence into the tracker dog. I think it detracts from more logical explanations for what happened to Maura.

You don't put that much credence in the ability of a tracker dog, or simply the reports that they lost her scent a few hundred feet from the accident scene?

Out of curiosity, what are the more logical explanations that you have in mind? I've agreed with everything I've seen you post, so I'm interested to hear your theory.

 

[BillNH]

I think it would be obvious to any random driver who stopped to pick her up that Maura was not a nomad who enjoyed camping in the winter. She had but one backpack with clinking glass bottles in it. I'm going to assume that winter campers/nomads look like they've been out in the cold for a while, not the neatly dressed girl we saw footage of buying alcohol that night. Also, I think a request by a young girl all alone to be dropped off at her "campsite" in the dead of winter is something so unusual that it would be remembered by someone who just stopped to help her.

Also, I think we seem to forget that this is a pitch-black forest that everyone is speculating that she just sprinted into. Stepping back and looking at this logically, I can't fathom a female all alone would run into a pitch-black forest. I'm sorry, I just can't. That makes absolutely no sense. Women don't like to walk to their cars alone at night, let alone run into complete darkness in the freezing cold on purpose, especially knowing you have no cell-phone service. The dogs lost the scent a few hundred feet away from the accident scene for a reason.

If I thought she was too well dressed to be a winter camper, I would not have mentioned it. I have seen them in similar attire, I have seen them less well dressed. And clinking bottles in a backpack, for these campers, is probably not that unusual. Some women, and men, would not be caught alone in the woods at night but some are certainly more comfortable with it, since, well, I have seen them. I happen to be the father of one girl who loves to winter camp, in the woods, in the WMNF, it's just a few miles away from my home but she comes up from Concord to camp. Usually with friends, male and female, sometimes with her brother and his girlfriend. So while it makes absolutely no sense to you, it is perfectly reasonable to me.

As for the dogs, even the handlers themselves did not expect to get a scent for anything more than 100 yards. Road traffic, wind and elapsed time were all a factor with an air scent dog and they expected the results they got and the results were inconclusive as evidence of anything.

 

[Fireweed]

You don't put that much credence in the ability of a tracker dog, or simply the reports that they lost her scent a few hundred feet from the accident scene?

Out of curiosity, what are the more logical explanations that you have in mind? I've agreed with everything I've seen you post, so I'm interested to hear your theory.

Well as I understand it, the police used gloves that Maura had never really worn in order to track her scent, and they did not do the scent tracking until many days later. Basically, there was not much in the way of a scent to be tracked

I suppose I just do not see the tracking dog "losing Maura's scent" as establishing a fact in this case.

 

[MadamReporter]

Well as I understand it, the police used gloves that Maura had never really worn in order to track her scent, and they did not do the scent tracking until many days later. Basically, there was not much in the way of a scent to be tracked

I suppose I just do not see the tracking dog "losing Maura's scent" as establishing a fact in this case.

Let's say for the moment that this was purely an accident. She's now all alone in the cold with no cell service. In this situation what would be the most logical thing to do? I can't see her doing anything other than going back the same way she drove in. Wasn't she only a few miles from the liquor store or gas station that she stopped at? I honestly do not believe for one second she walked into the woods any further than where she poured her liquor out a few feet away from her car. If her plan was to go into the forest, why would she dump out her booze right next to her car; why not wait until she is much deeper into the woods since she's going that way anyway? I'm really starting to think she was picked up by someone she was riding in tandem with.

 

[scoops]

Let's say for the moment that this was purely an accident. She's now all alone in the cold with no cell service. In this situation what would be the most logical thing to do? I can't see her doing anything other than going back the same way she drove in. Wasn't she only a few miles from the liquor store or gas station that she stopped at? I honestly do not believe for one second she walked into the woods any further than where she poured her liquor out a few feet away from her car. If her plan was to go into the forest, why would she dump out her booze right next to her car; why not wait until she is much deeper into the woods since she's going that way anyway? I'm really starting to think she was picked up by someone she was riding in tandem with.

The most logical thing for her to have done, would NOT involve driving a car (supposedly on its last legs) into the white mountains at dark on a cold February Monday night right at the start of a new school semester and nursing clinicals --- all by herself.

Why start with logic after a wreck has taken place?

 

[BillNH]

The liquor store was in Amherst, it is unclear if/when/where she fueled the Saturn. There is CCTV footage of the liquor store. I have not seen a credible account of how much gas was in the Saturn to determine where or if she fueled up.

 

[scoops]

The liquor store was in Amherst, it is unclear if/when/where she fueled the Saturn. There is CCTV footage of the liquor store. I have not seen a credible account of how much gas was in the Saturn to determine where or if she fueled up.

No argument here, just trying to help clear up ...

Maura's atm transaction likely took place right near her dorm. (it was Fleet bank) and their were 3 Fleet ATM machines all in the vincinity of where maura lived.

Maura's liquor store run was also likely in Amherst, but this has not been made public, nor is it known for sure whether there is actual video from both the liquor store and atm transactions or just one of them.


Maura is believed to have near a full tank of gas when she went missing, according to the reporter that did the long five-part series "Maura is Missing".

Here is Maribeth Conway during her epilogue from her series.

"Considering search dogs lost Maura's scent in the center of Wild Ammonoosuc Road, it is quite possible she got into a passing car. Why would Maura get into a stranger's car? Maybe she knew the person driving by, maybe the person appeared harmless, trustworthy even. Perhaps Maura was unconscious or forced into a passing vehicle. Odds may be slim that a passerby happens to be a murderer but Maura could have been followed from a rest area or gas station. Her gas tank was nearly full."


According to billy's mom Sharon, she was told that police had found a Code Red (Mt. Dew) bottle at the scene of the accident with a red licorice strip inside the bottle (being used as a straw by Maura). She thinks the bottle would've had to be found (by police) inside the car, but this is the bottle in the police report where the officer describes finding it under the car after the car had been towed. Sharon's argument is that if Maura had dumped the bottle then how did the licorice stick remain in the bottle.\

This mysterious bottle is what the responding officer described in his report as having a strong alcoholic smell to it.

 

[mommylicious]

According to billy's mom Sharon, she was told that police had found a Code Red (Mt. Dew) bottle at the scene of the accident with a red licorice strip inside the bottle (being used as a straw by Maura). She thinks the bottle would've had to be found (by police) inside the car, but this is the bottle in the police report where the officer describes finding it under the car after the car had been towed. Sharon's argument is that if Maura had dumped the bottle then how did the licorice stick remain in the bottle.\

This mysterious bottle is what the responding officer described in his report as having a strong alcoholic smell to it.

Respectfully snipped - I'm not super familiar with the bottle info, but how do they know it was dumped vs just tipped over? Could've rolled under the car, etc. Licorice would still be in then.

 

[scoops]

Respectfully snipped - I'm not super familiar with the bottle info, but how do they know it was dumped vs just tipped over? Could've rolled under the car, etc. Licorice would still be in then.

That is the whole debate concerning the bottle.

It starts with the police report: The responding officer put in the report at the very end
"When the vehicle was towed from the scene By Lavoie's, I recovered a coke bottle that contained a red liquid with a strong alcoholic odor."

While police don't speicify from that statement that they think Maura tried to hide evidence, the (public opinion) would be that if a car was towed and under that car was a bottle that contained an alcohol mix, that the driver had made an attempt to hide the alcohol.

In a link from a news report I provided a few posts back it talks about an open alcoholic bottle (in addition to the box of wine) that was found inside Maura's car which is a whole separate issue.

However, Sharon Rausch, (Billy's Mom) has questioned whether or not what was stated in the police report was actually referring to an open bottle found in the car as opposed to out of the car and under the car. And she used the example of the red licorice stick (which Maura liked to use as a straw) because she said if Maura had purposefully attempted to hide a bottle outside the car than the licorice stick would've likely fallen out.

 

[mommylicious]

Thanks for the summary, scoops!

IMO, you crash your car and you're surrounded by woods, other alcohol in the car, hiding a bottle under the car that you're abandoning seems kind of silly. Leave it in the car with the rest or hide it in the woods. My guess would be that she set it on the roof or ground while she was doing something and it tipped and rolled under. :twocents:

 

[MadamReporter]

The most logical thing for her to have done, would NOT involve driving a car (supposedly on its last legs) into the white mountains at dark on a cold February Monday night right at the start of a new school semester and nursing clinicals --- all by herself.

Why start with logic after a wreck has taken place?

I completely agree with you about her string of illogical choices leading up to the accident, but once you find yourself in the situation that she did where she was undoubtedly scared, anxious, and cold, would you head for the pitch-black abyss of the forest or would you go back the way you came where at least you know for sure how far it will be to the nearest pay phone, house, gas station, liquor store, etc.

 

[scoops]

I completely agree with you about her string of illogical choices leading up to the accident, but once you find yourself in the situation that she did where she was undoubtedly scared, anxious, and cold, would you head for the pitch-black abyss of the forest or would you go back the way you came where at least you know for sure how far it will be to the nearest pay phone, house, gas station, liquor store, etc.

I personally would've walked 10 feet to the Westman's house, or at minimum, walked the one mile back to the convienence store I just passed before I wrecked.

But that would be, because I WANTED help.

Maura didn't appear to want any help from anyone.

 

[Lolacat]

I personally would've walked 10 feet to the Westman's house, or at minimum, walked the one mile back to the convienence store I just passed before I wrecked.

But that would be, because I WANTED help.

Maura didn't appear to want any help from anyone.

I completely agree. She didnt want help. She could have waited at BA's house or, if she didnt feel comfortable with that she could have knocked on the door of any nearby house (there were a few in the vicinity). She also lied to BA about having called triple A, trying to get him to leave her alone and not call the police. If she did ask for help somewhere down the road I believe she would have picked someone who was completely unaware of her accident. But more than likely, she had a definite plan where she was going.

 

[Captain_Khan]

I personally would've walked 10 feet to the Westman's house, or at minimum, walked the one mile back to the convienence store I just passed before I wrecked.

But that would be, because I WANTED help.

Maura didn't appear to want any help from anyone.

I think that could be the result of her supposed intoxication. Maura didn't want a DUI. Knocking on someone's door could therefore be very risky.

If someone showed up at your home and told you they'd just crashed, the first thing you'd do is call the police for them, right? Then the police would come, and more likely than not, breathalise the driver.

Maura probably knew that. I still think she wanted to get away from the wreck (and anyone that would call the police on her behalf) in order to either sober up before encountering the police, or encounter someone and drink in front of them (giving her an 'alibi' for having drink in her system).

 

[Captain_Khan]

This mysterious bottle is what the responding officer described in his report as having a strong alcoholic smell to it.

Not sure where I'm going with this - but doesn't liquorice smell like certain alcoholic spirits (eg sambuca)?

 

[OldSteve]

Not sure where I'm going with this - but doesn't liquorice smell like certain alcoholic spirits (eg sambuca)?

You are right! Good point, don't think anyone ever mentioned that.

 

[mommylicious]

Not sure where I'm going with this - but doesn't liquorice smell like certain alcoholic spirits (eg sambuca)?

Yes. But I don't think any of the alcohol she was known to have on her does - wine coolers, vodka, Kahlua