NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[Darkness]

Whatever happen to that rag in the tail pipe?

Did it just end up in the back pocket of the tow truck driver?

Or did LE finally gather it up sometime later when this started to not look like a driver walk away?

 

[Lolacat]

I think it was a knee-jerk reaction by Fred to damp the suicide talk. After his initial reaction that she was trying to harm herself, about the time he made this statement, IIRC, he was starting the 'local dirtbag' idea and it was not a well thought out response.

Ah ok, this makes sense. Still a strange thing for him to say though- seeing as that would likely make the car stall. I also noticed on the Disappeared episode when they re-trace Maura's journey and indicate the route she took he says "I wish she had gone straight" -gesturing towards another road. Really? He says he has no idea where Maura was going, what her destination was, or why, and he is musing on the route that she *should have* taken? Also, another thing that bothers me. He says he had asked Maura to ring him at 8pm that night to discuss the insurance forms (which she did indeed, have in her car). If he was expecting a phone call from her then why was it the police were unable to reach him by phone until the next morning? Apparently, he was working so why did he ask her to call him that night if he knew he was working? (Btw, I am NOT implying he was involved in her disappearance but I am wondering if he knew where she was going but doesnt want to say).

 

[scoops]

I think it was a knee-jerk reaction by Fred to damp the suicide talk. After his initial reaction that she was trying to harm herself, about the time he made this statement, IIRC, he was starting the 'local dirtbag' idea and it was not a well thought out response.

Statements made publically by both police and Fred Murray back this up entirely.

The lead investigator into Maura's disappearance has stated on record that he has no clue what the rag was all about, however, he threw it out there that it may have been a make-shift spur of the moment suicide attempt.

Fred has always been quick to explain away the rag.

While there is conflicting info (basically family spokespeople spin) on how investigators came to the conclusion that Maura may have come to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself, it has been relayed on record over the years from fred and family spokespeople that fred mentioned something very early on (when he found out his daughter was missing) that had investigators focusing on the notion that Maura may have wanted to do personal harm to herself.

 

[scoops]

Ah ok, this makes sense. Still a strange thing for him to say though- seeing as that would likely make the car stall. I also noticed on the Disappeared episode when they re-trace Maura's journey and indicate the route she took he says "I wish she had gone straight" -gesturing towards another road. Really? He says he has no idea where Maura was going, what her destination was, or why, and he is musing on the route that she *should have* taken? Also, another thing that bothers me. He says he had asked Maura to ring him at 8pm that night to discuss the insurance forms (which she did indeed, have in her car). If he was expecting a phone call from her then why was it the police were unable to reach him by phone until the next morning? Apparently, he was working so why did he ask her to call him that night if he knew he was working? (Btw, I am NOT implying he was involved in her disappearance but I am wondering if he knew where she was going but doesnt want to say).

I think I can answer one of your questions.

The reason police didn't reach fred until the next day was honestly because there wasn't any sense of urgency to reach him.

They discovered an abandoned car (not a crime scene or a major accident scene). They figured the driver would turn up either later that night or the next morning to claim the car. They didn't know a thing about the driver and likely figured the driver was close to her destination and someone came and picked her up.

They didn't hear from the driver the next day, so they contacted the true owner of the vehicle. That would be standard police operation if I'm not mistaken.

Fred immediately upon hearing that his car was found abandoned near the entrance to the white mountains had important information he had to tell police concerning his daughter (as relayed in the actual police logs on Feb 10, 2004).

The lead investigator in the Maura murray case has said that the very first thing out of fred's mouth (this is vie phone and before fred even took off to go see the accident site) was that Maura had come to the North County to commit suicide.

This is not spin. These are actual events that have taken place.

 

[KenShabby]

it has been relayed on record over the years from fred and family spokespeople that fred mentioned something very early on (when he found out his daughter was missing) that had investigators focusing on the notion that Maura may have wanted to do personal harm to herself.

[I note that Scoops has responded to the same topic immediately above.] In any event — This might refer to Fred's reported spontaneous speculation that his daughter had done "the old squaw walk" — i.e., gone off to do away with herself. This statement is another one of those glaring red flags that causes people to think that there was a whole lot more going on in Maura's life than anyone is saying — and it certainly works against the insistence that what was going on in her life is irrelevant to her disappearance.

 

[scoops]

Ah ok, this makes sense. Still a strange thing for him to say though- seeing as that would likely make the car stall. I also noticed on the Disappeared episode when they re-trace Maura's journey and indicate the route she took he says "I wish she had gone straight" -gesturing towards another road. Really? He says he has no idea where Maura was going, what her destination was, or why, and he is musing on the route that she *should have* taken? Also, another thing that bothers me. He says he had asked Maura to ring him at 8pm that night to discuss the insurance forms (which she did indeed, have in her car). If he was expecting a phone call from her then why was it the police were unable to reach him by phone until the next morning? Apparently, he was working so why did he ask her to call him that night if he knew he was working? (Btw, I am NOT implying he was involved in her disappearance but I am wondering if he knew where she was going but doesnt want to say).

To answer your other question about fred questioning Maura's route:

Back in 2011, I made an attempt to drive Maura's believed route (leaving right from her campus dorm and ending up at the same spot she had her wreck).

I had never been to Massachusetts or New Hampshire before, so I had to utilize maps to help guide my way on the drive.

And if you aren't familiar with how roads work in that area, you would think that a shortcut to the Bartlett area (Maura's believed intended destination) would be to leave the interstate (91 N) right where Maura left it at and take the back roads straight across to the Bartlett area.

However, because it was winter and the back roads are very curvy and dangerous, the best way to get to the Bartlett area would've been to stay on I-91 N and even though on a map it seems like you have to drive further north and then loop back south to get to the Bartlett area, it actually is quicker and safer to go that way.

And I believe fred, who was experienced driving in that area, knew that. But I don't believe Maura did.

Sorry for the overly long attempt at an explanation.

 

[OldSteve]

I always took the "There is no note" comment as trying to dispel the idea that Maura left a suicide note. A printed email is not a "note" in my mind.

Thanks Amy - I had not thought of it that way; it makes sense now that you mentioned it!

 

[OldSteve]

I agree, it would be really helpful. Thanks for the link. I haven't see that video before. Its terribly sad watching that.

It is a haunting video! As I mentioned, I had wished they had added what it would have looked like at night. Perhaps too spooky - They did capture what it was like after a snowfall.

When watching it, can you picture a young gal doing that drive in a car that was on it's last leg? Was it supposed to be a one-way trip? Or, was it simply a young woman who was simply so upset with things she didn't care and just wanted to get away, but had no intention of self-harm?

 

[BillNH]

Whatever happen to that rag in the tail pipe?

Did it just end up in the back pocket of the tow truck driver?

Or did LE finally gather it up sometime later when this started to not look like a driver walk away?

I never heard that it was later collected by LE but I believe it was Cecil Smith, HPD that found it so it may have never left police chain of custody.

The thing about the rag though is that if it was found, there is no way it was stuffed in tight enough to cause the car to stall, or even run roughly. The tailpipe on the Saturn was about 6 inches long and curved the entire way into the muffler. The muffler was oriented perpendicular to the length of the car. In order to cause any problems for the car it would have to be very tightly packed into the tailpipe. It's a clear path from the end of the tailpipe right into the muffler, which is just a continuation of the same pipe but with perforations. If you tried to pack it in tight enough to cause a problem, you would just shove it into the muffler. Once into the body of the muffler it would require half a bed sheet to block up all the perforations inside, and it would be so far in that no one would have ever seen it. So it "could" have been an attempt to commit suicide, or to disable the vehicle, but would not have worked for either.

 

[scoops]

I always took the "There is no note" comment as trying to dispel the idea that Maura left a suicide note. A printed email is not a "note" in my mind.

Not to pick on you Amy74 because I believe you are truly trying to figure things out (whereas Jane Birch is likely a family spokesperson) but ...

You point out that printed email is not a note.

Isn't that the same sort of logic as Jane Birch stating that she is not going to split hairs or get into a pissing contest over the context of what sharon said when sharon said "there was no note."

The lead investigator of the case puts out a press release that states a personal note was left behind and some how his words get twisted to mean maura wrote out a suicide letter.

And then when asked to comment about it, billy's mom Sharon says there was no note (when she knows exactly what the officer was referencing).

wasn't sharon the one who was splitting hairs.

She could've readily explained what was left behind, her son saw it.

And yet her answer to the public was that there was NO note.

That is called spin in my book.

 

[Amy74]

Not to pick on you Amy74 because I believe you are truly trying to figure things out (whereas Jane Birch is likely a family spokesperson) but ...

You point out that printed email is not a note.

Isn't that the same sort of logic as Jane Birch stating that she is not going to split hairs or get into a pissing contest over the context of what sharon said when sharon said "there was no note."

The lead investigator of the case puts out a press release that states a personal note was left behind and some how his words get twisted to mean maura wrote out a suicide letter.

And then when asked to comment about it, billy's mom Sharon says there was no note (when she knows exactly what the officer was referencing).

wasn't sharon the one who was splitting hairs.

She could've readily explained what was left behind, her son saw it.

And yet her answer to the public was that there was NO note.

That is called spin in my book.

I actually agree that it appears Sharon put a spin on the situation. As I stated previously, I personally would not consider an email to be a note. IMO, Sharon probably thought the same and took the opportunity to say there was no note, knowing full well what was being referred to, yet choosing not to elaborate because it could put her son in a distasteful light, while still getting out the message that there was no current note left by Maura to explain why she left, where she went, etc. That being said, I believe the only time I (personally) have seen Sharon say there was no note was on the Disappeared episode (IIRC); it is entirely possible that she did explain and it was edited out. Not trying to defend, just giving the benefit of the doubt.

 

[goldiegirl]

I had never seen that video, either. Very sad and creepy. It would be hard to even watch one made at night because it would be a little too creepy for me, I think.

I feel like I just want to get out there with a dog and start looking in those woods. But it's been done so many times, I know. And I'd hate to be the person to come upon her for a number of reasons. But she's got to be out there somewhere. They probably just haven't searched the right spot yet.

ETA: This is really morbid, but I wonder how much there would even be to left to be found? If animals scattered the remains there would only be bones, and 10 years later who knows where those would be. I'm sure they're not even together anymore, and a dog wouldn't hit on them. So a person may even walk near where she is and not even know it, if you think about it.

 

[Lolacat]

I think I can answer one of your questions.

The reason police didn't reach fred until the next day was honestly because there wasn't any sense of urgency to reach him.

They discovered an abandoned car (not a crime scene or a major accident scene). They figured the driver would turn up either later that night or the next morning to claim the car. They didn't know a thing about the driver and likely figured the driver was close to her destination and someone came and picked her up.

They didn't hear from the driver the next day, so they contacted the true owner of the vehicle. That would be standard police operation if I'm not mistaken.

Fred immediately upon hearing that his car was found abandoned near the entrance to the white mountains had important information he had to tell police concerning his daughter (as relayed in the actual police logs on Feb 10, 2004).

The lead investigator in the Maura murray case has said that the very first thing out of fred's mouth (this is vie phone and before fred even took off to go see the accident site) was that Maura had come to the North County to commit suicide.

This is not spin. These are actual events that have taken place.

Ok, thanks. Was that the comment from Fred about "we'll find her up there- [the white mountains] drunk and naked"?

 

[Lolacat]

To answer your other question about fred questioning Maura's route:

Back in 2011, I made an attempt to drive Maura's believed route (leaving right from her campus dorm and ending up at the same spot she had her wreck).

I had never been to Massachusetts or New Hampshire before, so I had to utilize maps to help guide my way on the drive.

And if you aren't familiar with how roads work in that area, you would think that a shortcut to the Bartlett area (Maura's believed intended destination) would be to leave the interstate (91 N) right where Maura left it at and take the back roads straight across to the Bartlett area.

However, because it was winter and the back roads are very curvy and dangerous, the best way to get to the Bartlett area would've been to stay on I-91 N and even though on a map it seems like you have to drive further north and then loop back south to get to the Bartlett area, it actually is quicker and safer to go that way.

And I believe fred, who was experienced driving in that area, knew that. But I don't believe Maura did.

Sorry for the overly long attempt at an explanation.

This would explain that comment then, thanks. I do remember Fred saying that she wasnt too familiar with that route.

 

[Lolacat]

It is a haunting video! As I mentioned, I had wished they had added what it would have looked like at night. Perhaps too spooky - They did capture what it was like after a snowfall.

When watching it, can you picture a young gal doing that drive in a car that was on it's last leg? Was it supposed to be a one-way trip? Or, was it simply a young woman who was simply so upset with things she didn't care and just wanted to get away, but had no intention of self-harm?

Yep. I can also imagine that after a few drinks that road becomes rather dangerous. So much of the road looks exactly the same and its straight for ages and then the curve of the turn. I can imagine it being pretty easy for a young girl with emotional issues who has already had a drink to lose control of the car in the darkness of that route.

 

[goldiegirl]

Whoa, JR blog. Check out the new developments and photo.

This sounds really, really judgmental, naive and just outright stupid, and I never would have said it without all of these new possibilities coming out on Renner's blog:

I have always believed Maura either killed herself or succumbed to the elements. But in the back of my head I've always had a question but never brought it up since it didn't seem relevant - but I've wondered if Maura could have secretly been a lesbian. And the reason I ask this is what's going to really make me sound dumb, but the only people I have personally known who always wear their hair tied back the way Maura did have turned out to be lesbians. Maybe, just maybe, this is she on Renner's blog and she ran off to be part of a lesbian relationship. Or maybe it's Maura and she's not a lesbian. Or maybe it's not her and she was. Who knows. Just had to get it out.

 

[scoops]

Ok, thanks. Was that the comment from Fred about "we'll find her up there- [the white mountains] drunk and naked"?

On three separate occasions (that is known publically) fred has made comments about Maura taking her own life.

1. the phone call fred made to police before he left his job site to come to new Hampshire.

Lt. Scarinza Retired F Troop Commander (lead investigator Maura Murray case) in an interview with James Renner in recent years

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was (as he called Haverhill police and finally got to talk to an officer), 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

2. Once on scene of the accident the next day and being shown the area, billy's mom Sharon had noted (in a journal she was keeping, detailing everything that was taking place as they searched for Maura) that fred began to moan out loud as he relayed a story about telling all of his kids that if he ever began to feel worthless in life that he would grab a bottle of Jack Daniels and would head to the mountains and drink himself to death. He wondered if Maura might have taken his statement to heart.


3. Maura's sister then husband Tim Carpenter had stated in an interview with James Renner that while they were looking for Maura, Fred had pointed to the mountains and said that Maura would be found up there drunk and naked.
Tim didn't know what Fred meant by that and found it odd that fred described that his own daughter would be found naked.

 

[OldSteve]

On three separate occasions (that is known publically) fred has made comments about Maura taking her own life.

1. the phone call fred made to police before he left his job site to come to new Hampshire.

Lt. Scarinza Retired F Troop Commander (lead investigator Maura Murray case) in an interview with James Renner in recent years

"What I was told was that the first thing out of Fred's mouth was (as he called Haverhill police and finally got to talk to an officer), 'She's gone to the North Country to commit suicide, to go off and die like an old squaw."

2. Once on scene of the accident the next day and being shown the area, billy's mom Sharon had noted (in a journal she was keeping, detailing everything that was taking place as they searched for Maura) that fred began to moan out loud as he relayed a story about telling all of his kids that if he ever began to feel worthless in life that he would grab a bottle of Jack Daniels and would head to the mountains and drink himself to death. He wondered if Maura might have taken his statement to heart.


3. Maura's sister then husband Tim Carpenter had stated in an interview with James Renner that while they were looking for Maura, Fred had pointed to the mountains and said that Maura would be found up there drunk and naked.
Tim didn't know what Fred meant by that and found it odd that fred described that his own daughter would be found naked.

I wouldn't hold Fred to anything he said - we say strange things when grief stricken.
But I don't disagree that MM was on a one-way mission. I'm divided between foul-play, scumming to the elements by accident or intention, and suicide....
When I first joined this thread I was 100% foul-play - so what you've been saying has had an effect.

 

[takeitfromme412]

In light of the girls that were found in Cleveland I think it could be possible that Maura could be being held somewhere all this time against her will by some jerk. She had her little accident with her car, only grabbed a couple of things and then vanished. I mean, if she had just wandered out into the woods and died of exposure or took her own life I think she would have been found by now. It seems to me she is nowhere to be found all this time because someone evil doesn't want her to be found.... just a theory I have contemplated. It really is not out of the realm of possibilities here.

 

[scoops]

Just some random thoughts about Maura possibly still being alive and all along was just wanting to start a new life.

-- Would Maura have left all her belongings behind like she did, if she was running away to start a new life? Would she months later secretly have a moving company go get her stuff for her in dorm? Or how about the personal belongings that she did bring with her on her trip, yet she ended up leaving in her car anyway. Why bring those things only to leave them abandoned in your car?

--- Would Maura run away to start a new life in a town close to her hometown?
Some of these recent "findings" by James Renner have a picture of a gal from Pembroke, Mass that is supposedly posing with what many over there on the blog believe to be "Maura."

Pembroke is less than five miles from Maura's hometown. Would Maura really flee to a new life less than five miles away from where she grew up?

Somebody please use some common sense.