NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[Fireweed]

If LE admitted they should have looked for her right away, could Fred have Maura declared legally dead and file a wrongful death lawsuit?

Nope. In fact the Supreme Court has ruled on this. Fred Murray has no case against the police here for wrongful death (unless a cop actually killed her).

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Just wanted to add a theory to go with the rest of theories.

But before I do. Are there any locals here that would know at the time about any independent tow truck drivers that was working the area on that night. Perhaps not a nationally know company such as AAA. But more of a local independent company that had drivers on stand by to assist motorists whom got stuck broken down in the area do to the weather. Could have been an independent contractor whom own there own tow truck or worked for a local company there in the area.

One thing we do know she either feel asleep or started to fishtail and locked the brakes up and slid into the tree which caused her vehicle to turn around face face the opposite direction she was traveling in but in th same lane she was traveling in. Her car became disabled and she sat there for a moment trying to grasp what just happened. probably setting there with the engine dead, but the lights and wipers working, the blower from the heater on and steam coming from the damage radiator. Not long after the neighbors came out to check on her, than the bus driver came by. Seems the only traffic in the area at the time were persons whom lived there where the accident occurred. She was certainly upset for having another accident but knew she had to get the vehicle off the street for she knew the police where coming soon. It was just to dangerous to leave the vehicle parked on the road like that.

She got out and locked the doors and I believe i read she left the keys inside with no spare to unlock and retrieve them. She took the alcohol in-case the police did come by to investigate and did not want them to find the alcohol.

She had money on her for a tow, just wanted to get it off the road. So my theory, and its just a theory based on nothing but speculation from what I have read, that perhaps she spotted a tow truck parked at the building there where you come around the bin and where she struck the tree it spun her around facing the opposite direction which in this case had her seeing the building she just past. Perhaps she seen a tow truck/truck parked at the building and went there to find the driver to see how much it would cost to have her car tow off the road before the police arrived.

 

[ZooSleuth]

Just wanted to add a theory to go with the rest of theories.

But before I do. Are there any locals here that would know at the time about any independent tow truck drivers that was working the area on that night. Perhaps not a nationally know company such as AAA. But more of a local independent company that had drivers on stand by to assist motorists whom got stuck broken down in the area do to the weather. Could have been an independent contractor whom own there own tow truck or worked for a local company there in the area.

One thing we do know she either feel asleep or started to fishtail and locked the brakes up and slid into the tree which caused her vehicle to turn around face face the opposite direction she was traveling in but in th same lane she was traveling in. Her car became disabled and she sat there for a moment trying to grasp what just happened. probably setting there with the engine dead, but the lights and wipers working, the blower from the heater on and steam coming from the damage radiator. Not long after the neighbors came out to check on her, than the bus driver came by. Seems the only traffic in the area at the time were persons whom lived there where the accident occurred. She was certainly upset for having another accident but knew she had to get the vehicle off the street for she knew the police where coming soon. It was just to dangerous to leave the vehicle parked on the road like that.

She got out and locked the doors and I believe i read she left the keys inside with no spare to unlock and retrieve them. She took the alcohol in-case the police did come by to investigate and did not want them to find the alcohol.

She had money on her for a tow, just wanted to get it off the road. So my theory, and its just a theory based on nothing but speculation from what I have read, that perhaps she spotted a tow truck parked at the building there where you come around the bin and where she struck the tree it spun her around facing the opposite direction which in this case had her seeing the building she just past. Perhaps she seen a tow truck/truck parked at the building and went there to find the driver to see how much it would cost to have her car tow off the road before the police arrived.

BBM.

AAA has their own tow trucks? They subcontract with local tow truck companies in all my experiences with them.

 

[Fireweed]

BTW, in the news report everyone said that Maura disappeared within a 3-7 minute time frame. For some reason, I always thought that the time frame could have been as long as 15 minutes.

If Renner's theory is correct, then would it not be more likely that Maura jogged a short distance from the accident sight to where she got picked up? To a place where no one could see her from their windows? How dark was it that night?

If someone picked her up, maybe we should think about a profile for that person, or start thinking logically about that person's actions. We know that Maura has about a 30 to 45 minute gap of time, which makes me think that this time was spent meeting up somewhere with the tandem driver. Perhaps Maura is 15 minutes late, or maybe the tandem driver is late. Either way, it results in 30 minute delay. They meet up somewhere and hash out their final plans for their trip. If Maura has not gone missing for ten years, I would say that person could be anyone. But in light of the facts, that person would have to be someone very secretive indeed. Either this person cares about Maura so much that he/she has kept silent for ten years, or this person is the one that murdered Maura, in which case he/she has a self-serving reason for keeping quiet.

So tandem driver:

1. is still with Maura somewhere to this very day. Romantic love is keeping the disappearance going. They have not broken up, and this guy has no family/friends who know it is Maura Murray.

2. believed something about Maura's life or circumstances, and that belief is what made them help her, and still keep the secret to this day.

3. was involved in an illegal enterprise with Maura. Snitch on Maura, snitch on yourself.

4. was going to hang out with Maura for the week. Maybe it was going to be a little getaway between secret lovers who had both had enough of their live and needed to decompress. Something went horribly wrong, and now secret boyfriend is a murderer. This guy will take the secret to his grave.

5. is a random person Maura met at a stop along the way. They saw the car was having problems and offered to drive tandem with her.

6. is Fred/Laurie/Kathleen/Julie/eldest brother.

 

[scoops]

BTW, in the news report everyone said that Maura disappeared within a 3-7 minute time frame. For some reason, I always thought that the time frame could have been as long as 15 minutes.

If Renner's theory is correct, then would it not be more likely that Maura jogged a short distance from the accident sight to where she got picked up? To a place where no one could see her from their windows? How dark was it that night?

If someone picked her up, maybe we should think about a profile for that person, or start thinking logically about that person's actions. We know that Maura has about a 30 to 45 minute gap of time, which makes me think that this time was spent meeting up somewhere with the tandem driver. Perhaps Maura is 15 minutes late, or maybe the tandem driver is late. Either way, it results in 30 minute delay. They meet up somewhere and hash out their final plans for their trip. If Maura has not gone missing for ten years, I would say that person could be anyone. But in light of the facts, that person would have to be someone very secretive indeed. Either this person cares about Maura so much that he/she has kept silent for ten years, or this person is the one that murdered Maura, in which case he/she has a self-serving reason for keeping quiet.

So tandem driver:

1. is still with Maura somewhere to this very day. Romantic love is keeping the disappearance going. They have not broken up, and this guy has no family/friends who know it is Maura Murray.

2. believed something about Maura's life or circumstances, and that belief is what made them help her, and still keep the secret to this day.

3. was involved in an illegal enterprise with Maura. Snitch on Maura, snitch on yourself.

4. was going to hang out with Maura for the week. Maybe it was going to be a little getaway between secret lovers who had both had enough of their live and needed to decompress. Something went horribly wrong, and now secret boyfriend is a murderer. This guy will take the secret to his grave.

5. is a random person Maura met at a stop along the way. They saw the car was having problems and offered to drive tandem with her.

6. is Fred/Laurie/Kathleen/Julie/eldest brother.

Just some questions to ponder if one is to believe Maura was meeting up with someone:

1. Why did Maura only pack 1 outfit?

2. Why did Maura take the time to lock her car, but not grab the stuff she packed?

3. With no cell phone coverage, how would the person she was meeting with know precisely where to pick Maura up from (assuming her second wreck wasn't staged)?

4. Why did Maura take the time to pack up bottles of alcohol to bring from her wrecked car and nothing else (like toothbrush, clothes, sentimental items)?

(Sarcasm alert) Is alcohol the new form of identity to use to cross a border with?

5. Why did Maura have a book about adventures and death in the white mountains while she was entering the white mountains ... yet (if you believe the tandem theory) then she was going to Canada or somewhere else - So why have that book with her? Seems like an odd traveling book to take with you to start a new life. Kind of a Debbie Downer and really has nothing to do with Canada.

6. Why pack up your dorm room back at UMASS? You are supposedly starting a new life, why not leave things as they were. It seems like wasted time for someone who seemed very rushed and frantic those last few days before she went missing.

7. Why drink and drive (in a car on its last legs supposedly) if you are trying to make a clean break to a new life? IMO, you would want to be very alert during this time and make sure nothing went wrong, so you can make the bold move with very little problems.

8. Why leave late in the afternoon from campus? You are ditching your old life. Why not leave at the crack of dawn and have the whole day to get to your new destination?

 

[Tssiemer]

Just some questions to ponder if one is to believe Maura was meeting up with someone:

1. Why did Maura only pack 1 outfit?

2. Why did Maura take the time to lock her car, but not grab the stuff she packed?

3. With no cell phone coverage, how would the person she was meeting with know precisely where to pick Maura up from (assuming her second wreck wasn't staged)?

4. Why did Maura take the time to pack up bottles of alcohol to bring from her wrecked car and nothing else (like toothbrush, clothes, sentimental items)?

(Sarcasm alert) Is alcohol the new form of identity to use to cross a border with?

5. Why did Maura have a book about adventures and death in the white mountains while she was entering the white mountains ... yet (if you believe the tandem theory) then she was going to Canada or somewhere else - So why have that book with her? Seems like an odd traveling book to take with you to start a new life. Kind of a Debbie Downer and really has nothing to do with Canada.

6. Why pack up your dorm room back at UMASS? You are supposedly starting a new life, why not leave things as they were. It seems like wasted time for someone who seemed very rushed and frantic those last few days before she went missing.

7. Why drink and drive (in a car on its last legs supposedly) if you are trying to make a clean break to a new life? IMO, you would want to be very alert during this time and make sure nothing went wrong, so you can make the bold move with very little problems.

8. Why leave late in the afternoon from campus? You are ditching your old life. Why not leave at the crack of dawn and have the whole day to get to your new destination?

9. Why take your school books and things?

 

[scoops]

Just some questions to ponder if one is to believe Maura was meeting up with someone:

1. Why did Maura only pack 1 outfit?

2. Why did Maura take the time to lock her car, but not grab the stuff she packed?

3. With no cell phone coverage, how would the person she was meeting with know precisely where to pick Maura up from (assuming her second wreck wasn't staged)?

4. Why did Maura take the time to pack up bottles of alcohol to bring from her wrecked car and nothing else (like toothbrush, clothes, sentimental items)?

(Sarcasm alert) Is alcohol the new form of identity to use to cross a border with?

5. Why did Maura have a book about adventures and death in the white mountains while she was entering the white mountains ... yet (if you believe the tandem theory) then she was going to Canada or somewhere else - So why have that book with her? Seems like an odd traveling book to take with you to start a new life. Kind of a Debbie Downer and really has nothing to do with Canada.

6. Why pack up your dorm room back at UMASS? You are supposedly starting a new life, why not leave things as they were. It seems like wasted time for someone who seemed very rushed and frantic those last few days before she went missing.

7. Why drink and drive (in a car on its last legs supposedly) if you are trying to make a clean break to a new life? IMO, you would want to be very alert during this time and make sure nothing went wrong, so you can make the bold move with very little problems.

8. Why leave late in the afternoon from campus? You are ditching your old life. Why not leave at the crack of dawn and have the whole day to get to your new destination?

I'll take a stab at answering my own questions. (Some of the answers turn into sarcasm, sorry, I couldn't help myself.)


Answering my own questions:
1. Good question by the way, you should be a journalist or something.
I would say you would only pack one outfit if you weren't planning on needing more than 1 or 2 days worth of clothes. Almost like you were taking a ONE WAY trip somewhere. But that is just a hunch.

2. Wow, another solid question fine sir.
You know, I would think that you wouldn't go through all the bother of packing up very specific things, only to leave them behind in the end.

So why did Maura only take her backpack and a few bottles of alcohol when she left her wrecked car on the side of the road? Because she was on foot, and didn't want to carry a lot of stuff. If she had a person picking her up just down the road, then Maura would've grabbed her bag of stuff (clothes, toiletries, etc.) and taken them with her. Being that she was alone, lugging around a packed bag of stuff wouldn't make much sense.

3. I guess the person (totally oblivious to Maura's wreck) could've just had incredible luck going for them that night. At some point they realized Maura was no longer trailing them, yet when back-tracking to find her -- they someone timed it just perfectly not to travel back too far to where they would be seen by the several witnesses who were on and off again looking out their windows. This mystery partner also may have known (some how) to just sit and wait for Maura in the middle of nowhere (knowing surely that Maura would catch up and walk to them eventually). Even though this mystery partner wouldn't know for sure even that Maura had a wreck if they were traveling in front of her. (What luck this person must have had to time everything out so well and have that intuition that Maura was coming to them and all they had to do was sit in their car and wait for her).

4. That is a real mystery. Taking bottles of alcohol and a backpack and nothing else will be a rather unusual combo to use to start a new life with.

I would at least want my toothbrush. I understand if you want a true clean break from your old life. But you can still use your old toothbrush, even with a new identity.

5. A book about the white mountains and (Maura's second wreck was at the entrance of the white mountains) ... I'm not good at math, so I can't seem to see a connection here. Maybe someone else could help.

6. As I have said before. Maybe Maura wanted to make the clean break to a new life and then months later, maybe she would don a costume and disguise and head back with a U-Haul and retrieve her stuff at a later date.

7. Maura was adventurous. Maybe she just like the challenge of drinking and driving. Making a bold move like starting a whole new life in another country, wouldn't be any fun unless you were at least somewhat impaired while attempting to do it.

8. I know If I ever want to start a new life and new identity, the best time to do so is in the midnight hours. So many things are open and travel during those times is so easy. (sarcasm alert).

Now if my destination, in fact, was the white mountains and I timed it to get there at the evening and I brought just enough money for one night in a hotel, then .... nah, that makes no sense whatsoever. (sarcasm yet again, SORRY).

 

[Fireweed]

Sorry perhaps I did not make myself very clear. The conversation I was trying to get going was if we believe Renner's tandem theory, then who is the tandem driver? I was absolutely not saying that the tandem theory is correct. I was attempting to get us to focus on that one thing just enough to work through it logically. But obviously I failed.

 

[Lolacat]

Scoops - I am curious. I know you said that you believe Fred thinks Maura is dead and that he is lying about the "dirtbag got her" theory. But why? why would he lie about this? If, deep down, he truly thinks she killed herself why would he be so focused on this local "dirtbag"? Surely, his main concern in this case scenario would be to search for places where her body might be and to try to bring her home for burial and closure. Rather than chasing a predator that doesnt exist. I get that he is angry with LE and that they missed their chance to save a *potentially suicidal girl* but I would have thought he'd be calling for better/more supportive mental health services if he truly thought she took her own life.

The only reasons I can think of why he'd lie about this are:

1. He is ashamed that she took her own life and is worried how it will reflect on him as a father. Or, he is generally embarrassed by the stigma of any potential mental health issues. Or, he saw the signs and did nothing= terrible guilt etc..

2. He said and did some very harsh things to Maura on that Sat night after her car accident and it haunts him. He cannot bring himself to reveal what happened because he feels he may have triggered her wanting to take her own life and the guilt is crippling. Plus, people will blame him for her disappearance.

3. He and Maura (or, just maura alone) were involved in criminal activities that spiralled out of control (perhaps also, involving the $4,000) and Maura couldn't take the stress any more but he cannot say anything without implicating himself or implicating maura.

If none of these are true, why wouldn't he just say, "I believe my daughter killed herself and LE did not fulfil their duty to protect her"?

 

[scoops]

Scoops - I am curious. I know you said that you believe Fred thinks Maura is dead and that he is lying about the "dirtbag got her" theory. But why? why would he lie about this? If, deep down, he truly thinks she killed herself why would he be so focused on this local "dirtbag"? Surely, his main concern in this case scenario would be to search for places where her body might be and to try to bring her home for burial and closure. Rather than chasing a predator that doesnt exist. I get that he is angry with LE and that they missed their chance to save a *potentially suicidal girl* but I would have thought he'd be calling for better/more supportive mental health services if he truly thought she took her own life.

The only reasons I can think of why he'd lie about this are:

1. He is ashamed that she took her own life and is worried how it will reflect on him as a father. Or, he is generally embarrassed by the stigma of any potential mental health issues. Or, he saw the signs and did nothing= terrible guilt etc..

2. He said and did some very harsh things to Maura on that Sat night after her car accident and it haunts him. He cannot bring himself to reveal what happened because he feels he may have triggered her wanting to take her own life and the guilt is crippling. Plus, people will blame him for her disappearance.

3. He and Maura (or, just maura alone) were involved in criminal activities that spiralled out of control (perhaps also, involving the $4,000) and Maura couldn't take the stress any more but he cannot say anything without implicating himself or implicating maura.

If none of these are true, why wouldn't he just say, "I believe my daughter killed herself and LE did not fulfil their duty to protect her"?

Your first two points are very solid ones and good for debate.

I would also add that the local dirtbag theory is the only thing that keeps pressure on police to take any sort of action. If there is truly a local dirt bag out there killing young women in that area, then the public stays interested in the case, the police better be doing something and accountability remains very high.

An adult going into the mountains to take her own life doesn't quite hold the interest of the public or warrants police resources the way a straight kidnapping/murder situation would. IMO.

 

[scoops]

Sorry perhaps I did not make myself very clear. The conversation I was trying to get going was if we believe Renner's tandem theory, then who is the tandem driver? I was absolutely not saying that the tandem theory is correct. I was attempting to get us to focus on that one thing just enough to work through it logically. But obviously I failed.

Was not directing my post at you specifically, I was actually just trying to open up debate on that theory myself and (I got a little carried away with my posts).

It is a theory and it deserves to be analyzed, IMO.

 

[Gene S.]

The WCVB broadcast shows video of Russell's in the center of Amherst when they say that Maura bought alcohol on Monday. I assume that if law enforcement has the receipt for the beverages Maura purchased that they know which liquor store she went to but I've never seen the liquor store identified.

Does anyone know if it was in fact Russell's where Maura stopped or if WCVB, wanting some footage of a local liquor store to illustrate Maura buying alcohol, simply picked Russell's because it was convenient to film?

 

[Lolacat]

Your first two points are very solid ones and good for debate.

I would also add that the local dirtbag theory is the only thing that keeps pressure on police to take any sort of action. If there is truly a local dirt bag out there killing young women in that area, then the public stays interested in the case, the police better be doing something and accountability remains very high.

An adult going into the mountains to take her own life doesn't quite hold the interest of the public or warrants police resources the way a straight kidnapping/murder situation would. IMO.

Ok, Thanks. That does make sense. I never thought of it that way- about it putting pressure on the police etc..

 

[Fireweed]

The WCVB broadcast shows video of Russell's in the center of Amherst when they say that Maura bought alcohol on Monday. I assume that if law enforcement has the receipt for the beverages Maura purchased that they know which liquor store she went to but I've never seen the liquor store identified.

Does anyone know if it was in fact Russell's where Maura stopped or if WCVB, wanting some footage of a local liquor store to illustrate Maura buying alcohol, simply picked Russell's because it was convenient to film?

I asked a while back which liquor store she went to, because ostensibly she left from there to go on her trip. I thought knowing might help to narrow down the timeline. It looked like it was in an urban area near to campus. Since I have nothing else to go by, I will use Russell's for now in terms of looking at maps and timelines.

 

[Lolacat]

Sorry perhaps I did not make myself very clear. The conversation I was trying to get going was if we believe Renner's tandem theory, then who is the tandem driver? I was absolutely not saying that the tandem theory is correct. I was attempting to get us to focus on that one thing just enough to work through it logically. But obviously I failed.

I have also pondered this. If it was a romantic partner, it would have to be someone she trusted implicitly. To leave your entire life behind and start a brand new identity with someone else is a very big deal and not something you would trust to someone on a whim (or at least, I would hope so!). I suppose then, the next logical step is to think practically. Where would Maura have had the opportunity to meet this person? she didnt have much free time what with working 2 jobs and being at college. I would imagine if it was someone local, its possible it would have been noticed that they also left town too, at the exact same time. Maybe then, someone from out of town?

 

[Gene S.]

I asked a while back which liquor store she went to, because ostensibly she left from there to go on her trip. I thought knowing might help to narrow down the timeline. It looked like it was in an urban area near to campus. Since I have nothing else to go by, I will use Russell's for now in terms of looking at maps and timelines.

It would surprise me a little if it was Russell's, since parking there might not be easy for her. If I had to guess, I would guess she stopped at Liquors 44, which is on Route 9 a smidge west of where University intersects Route 9 (Fred mentions a possible trip to Liquors 44 on Saturday in his statement to UMass police). There's a big parking lot at Liquors 44. Liquors 44 is well known to the UMass community and would also be on the way to her two most likely possible routes out of Hadley/Amherst to head north.

But that's really just a guess--there are lots of other places she could have stopped. I'm just curious if they showed Russell's because they know that's where she stopped or whether Russell's is simply playing the generic visual role of "a local liquor store".

 

[Jmoose]

Scoops - I am curious. I know you said that you believe Fred thinks Maura is dead and that he is lying about the "dirtbag got her" theory. But why? why would he lie about this? If, deep down, he truly thinks she killed herself why would he be so focused on this local "dirtbag"? Surely, his main concern in this case scenario would be to search for places where her body might be and to try to bring her home for burial and closure. Rather than chasing a predator that doesnt exist. I get that he is angry with LE and that they missed their chance to save a *potentially suicidal girl* but I would have thought he'd be calling for better/more supportive mental health services if he truly thought she took her own life.

The only reasons I can think of why he'd lie about this are:

1. He is ashamed that she took her own life and is worried how it will reflect on him as a father. Or, he is generally embarrassed by the stigma of any potential mental health issues. Or, he saw the signs and did nothing= terrible guilt etc..

2. He said and did some very harsh things to Maura on that Sat night after her car accident and it haunts him. He cannot bring himself to reveal what happened because he feels he may have triggered her wanting to take her own life and the guilt is crippling. Plus, people will blame him for her disappearance.

3. He and Maura (or, just maura alone) were involved in criminal activities that spiralled out of control (perhaps also, involving the $4,000) and Maura couldn't take the stress any more but he cannot say anything without implicating himself or implicating maura.

If none of these are true, why wouldn't he just say, "I believe my daughter killed herself and LE did not fulfil their duty to protect her"?

I think it's possible that Fred would dismiss the suicide theory, even if he personally believed it, because he thought the "dirtbag" theory would make the police more likely to do something-that they may not search urgently for a suicide victim. And that might explain why he is so focused on the first 36 hours, when the police did nothing.

 

[Fireweed]

Well I understand being focused on the first 36 hours, which IMO is critical to knowing what happened to Maura. What I do not understand is how finding out why the police did not search in the first 36 hours will help. The only thing I can think of is that a cop murdered her, or the cops are covering up for someone. I have not seen any evidence that points to either of those.

 

[Jmoose]

Well I understand being focused on the first 36 hours, which IMO is critical to knowing what happened to Maura. What I do not understand is how finding out why the police did not search in the first 36 hours will help. The only thing I can think of is that a cop murdered her, or the cops are covering up for someone. I have not seen any evidence that points to either of those.

From what I've seen in so many of these cases, it seems to be standard operating procedure for the police not to do much, or even anything, in the case of a missing adult for the first 48 hours. And yet, as you pointed out, these are the most crucial hours. I agree with you-I don't necessarily think it points to covering for another cop-and since I am close personal friends with several police officers here in NY, I can say that, while you might be able to get a couple of cops to cover for you, it's unlikely that they all would.

 

[scoops]

Well I understand being focused on the first 36 hours, which IMO is critical to knowing what happened to Maura. What I do not understand is how finding out why the police did not search in the first 36 hours will help. The only thing I can think of is that a cop murdered her, or the cops are covering up for someone. I have not seen any evidence that points to either of those.

This is a very good question.

I do think Fred has some questions he wants answered (like why an off-duty cop went to the accident scene, yet there is no (public) record what the cop did or didn't do that night,

But, I don't know why Fred is so focused on those first 36 hours (some 10 years later).

I have thought, maybe he was planning some sort of law suit if he could ever get everything released to him or maybe he just wanted it on record to the public that the police botched up investigating his daughter's appearance.

I really don't know what It would solve, for Fred to learn about how police handled a pretty typical minor car accident in the first few days.