NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Wouldn't it be funny if it turns out he married MM. I'd buy that book.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bragi said:
I recently read through the entirety of JR's blog. It is it the beating heart of this investigation. James talks with actual sources and visits real locations, and obviously has the skills to detect and disclose new information without threatening the future of the investigation.

It's apparent to me that JR is or has recently wrapped up the "meat" of his planned investigation. Hopefully there will be continued disclosures on his site, but my impression is that he may well have more important information that we won't discover until the book comes out. That could be just rational strategy to make sure people want to get the book, or (and?) it could be that revealing that information right now could severely harm any further stage of the investigation.
Click to expand...

When I found Renner's blog a long time ago I thought it was great too. Then as time went on he would just post cliffhangers with no follow up. Then he just concentrated on the white noise surrounding the case, as in Fred Murray's poor housekeeping skills and tons of speculation and conjecture.
I haven't read anything on his blog that shows he knows what happened to Maura Murray after the one car accident in Haverhill. I have nothing against him, I'm just waiting for him to solve the case and it's not happening.
The case will be solved by law enforcement, not James Renner, if there even was a crime committed.
 
Tssiemer said:
Wouldn't it be funny if it turns out he married MM. I'd buy that book.
Click to expand...

Alright, you got a laugh out of me with that one.

What if he IS Maura? I N C E P T I O N.

I really hope JR's book has at least a theory with enough new information (or a new look at old information) that finally "clicks."

That JR had enough conviction to raise money for billboards and fliers is interesting to me. I think we all hope that pans out.

If LE finds out what happened to MM, I feel like it's possible that won't happen for a long time. Even when huge searches are done, they often turn up little or nothing. Remember that woman that killed herself recently after an around-the-world trip? I think I read they had at least one big search for her and after that failed, someone found her in someone's back yard or something.
 
I hope JR's book, which I unfortunately feel compelled to read, is an e-book. Kill less trees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Fireweed said:
I wonder if something happened over winter break, or if she had an epiphany or something during that time.
Click to expand...

I wonder this too. Noone has really talked about the months prior, we only have such a teeny tiny snapshot of the few days prior. Kate doesnt seem too keen to talk about it either, weirdly. Christmas/new year time often solidifies decisions for many people - I read somewhere that new year is the most common time for people to seek out divorce- they manage to hold it together for Christmas and then by the new year they want a fresh start. I wonder if something like that happened to Maura?
 
I mean. The whole family/friends/Roush's paint this picture of Maura that she was happy and excited for her future. We'll never really know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Does anyone have an idea what the academic calendar was like at Umass Amherst during that time?
 
Why Maura might be alive?

- no body found
- the odds of getting abducted on the same day you decide to pack up and leave is astronomical
- the odds of getting abducted in the 10 minute window before the police arrived is astronomical
- James Renner thinks so

Why she is likely dead.
- no trace of her in 10 years
- took excessive amounts of alcohol with her, in a depressive state, with a book about dieing in the White Mountains
- her father's first reaction was she took her own life in White Mountains
- isolated road, easy for someone to abduct her


Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
 
trenchmouth said:
Why Maura might be alive?

- no body found
- the odds of getting abducted on the same day you decide to pack up and leave is astronomical
- the odds of getting abducted in the 10 minute window before the police arrived is astronomical
- James Renner thinks so

Why she is likely dead.
- no trace of her in 10 years
- took excessive amounts of alcohol with her, in a depressive state, with a book about dieing in the White Mountains
- her father's first reaction was she took her own life in White Mountains
- isolated road, easy for someone to abduct her


Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

BBM


So she's dead by default? I've always thought she was dead due to the elements though. If she was drunk she was not making the best decisions, she was running, got tired, laid down and died.
 
Just taking the above post as a jump off point.....

This case has more red herrings and unlikely wild theories than any other case which comes to mind. Renner's blog is indispensable but he does lean heavily toward an optimistic reading of the facts. In short he is looking for evidence which shows she ran away to start a new life and tends (in my view) to interpret evidence through this biased lens. I believe the way her family and her boyfriend (and his family) painted her as a saint damaged the investigation, Renner was brave enough to dig. I'm not judging anyone involved with Maura though, I cannot comprehend the pain they must be suffering. I must say the research on the Renner blog is exhaustive and thorough, I can't help but admire the time he has put in.

One of the more unreported facts in the case and which Renner established quite early was that contrary to popular belief all alcohol purchased that night was recovered from the car. Of course this partially excludes the red wine which was clearly being drunk from an empty coca cola bottle while Maura drove. The vodka & Baileys (I have seen this elsewhere referred to as Kalhlua) were found in the car and from what I gather were unopened. Renner got this information face to face with a police officer who accessed records on the case. The box of red wine was said to be empty but the box is also said to have broken open (perhaps due to the crash, more likely done when she initially opened it). Red wine stains are in various parts of the car apparently, including the roof upholstery. I think this all rules out the already shaky suicide by drinking theory. I always felt that amount of alcohol, which included the ingredients to make black Russians, pointed to Maura expecting company at some point that night. I know she subsequently left the alcohol in the car (along with the diamond necklace and books) but I think people often forget her state of mind after this accident. We have to remember that Maura is likely very panicked. Her main objective, arguably overriding everything else, is to flee from responding police. Do not forget this is Maura Murray's second auto accident in 3 days and she has very clearly been drinking before this crash. Furthermore due to her probation conditions relating to the C.C fraud she knows she will be in a great deal of trouble. Adding the citation from the first accident to this crash it all starts to stack up intimidatingly. So we have an at least partially intoxicated girl on the run who might have well suffered head injuries in the crash. My point being, she is not making plans, she just wants to get away from the car as quickly as possible to take stock of things. It is unlikely she is thinking in a logical manner at all in the minutes after the crash. Might she want to get away from the area so desperately and quickly that she will jump into the first car that comes along? Might she even flag the first car that comes along? This would be a risky thing to do but remember how desperate Maura likely is.

I have to confess I am firmly in the abduction camp on this case. When Renner claims it is so unlikely as to be impossible that she was abducted in such a short space of time I find it slightly misleading. This is for one reason, excellent and specific testimony of a red pick up in the immediate area at the immediate time . This red pick up is no rumor and was of such importance that police logs subsequently point to them tracing down more than a couple of cars that fit this description. Confusion exists precisely because more than one red pick up is mentioned in the logs.

The initial testimony concerning the red pick up is powerful and seems to be be fully legitimate and comes from a credible witness. The full testimony I will not quote here but it is available at Mr Renner's blog and elsewhere. To paraphrase, the woman who saw the pick up initially saw it paused in the middle of the road travelling on the road which led directly to the accident. This woman was walking to the gas station / store as she knew the owners. After she passed the pick up it moved past her. As the lady reached the gas station she saw the same pick up parked up under the lights. This lady had the impression the driver was watching her and wondered if the driver was lost. She said that she felt the scenario so suspicious that she made a point of noting the license plate as she approached. Before she could get close the red pick up pulled away and proceeded down the road toward the accident. When this lady went into the store she asked if the driver of this vehicle had been in at all and she was told whoever it was they had not been in the store. Note how suspicious the behavior of this red pick up is, I believe this is the reason that the woman recalls the scenario so well. Sadly what she didn't remember was the license plate number, but she did note that the plate was a local one (I wonder if she might be mistaken on this detail). What is very interesting is that the times fit right in for this driver to be happening on the accident and therefore Murray in the short period between the police first responder and Butch Atwood (the bus driver) going to his cabin to call police. Atwood himself said that no more that 5 or so cars passed when he was on the phone. Meanwhile the woman at the store stayed to help her friend close up and she mentions she saw the police drive by next, one of the police cars actually stopped to talk with her (as they knew each other). What we can be sure of is that this red pick up arrived at the crash scene before police. In fact the pick up likely arrived just a few minutes after the crash, precisely the point at which Atwood would be on the phone. The state of mind that Murray was in we just don't know how she would have reacted to the red pick up but I do think its fair to say that Maura might have been less attuned to a potentially dangerous situation due to what had just happened in league with having been drinking.

I think the odds get a great deal smaller of Maura running into a criminal opportunist when we consider first the suspicious behavior of this pick up and secondly the time frame of her disappearance. I have read a couple of places elsewhere from seemingly legit and trustworthy posters that they have heard from law enforcement contacts that 'if you find that red pick up then you solve the case'. This is hearsay of course but if we believe the statement of this woman then it seems to me the most likely scenario and trumps the tandem or staged crash theory.

I hope this is not the case, I do hope that this car was travelling in tandem with Murray. I am just not too much of an optimist though when you look at the statement and other details. I think most people agree that Murray was indeed running away that night, unlike some others I take the view she was looking for a break from her troubles, nothing permanent. I also think she was very likely meeting someone initially. I do not want to be pessimistic but I feel that either she fell victim to that person in the red pick up or fell victim to another opportunist, perhaps the one she was going to meet. What is obviously key is finding the person or persons that were in that red pick up. I believe we will find you one day Maura.
 
Since it may be interesting, though it contains barely any useful information, I was able to retrieve an article that was posted on the "Daily Collegian" (a UMass-Amherst newspaper) about PV. It says it was published Feb 9 but I retrieved it as it existed on Feb 29, 2004.

If you'd like to look at an archived PDF version of the library, I've made it available in a Bittorrent Sync folder. I've also added another document and the Google Street View images of the last leg of MM's trip I created.

To use the Bittorrent Sync folder, download Bittorrent Sync and use this secret key: AXSAIKP2FZ4TKKILGTGLCJKLV3F5QEUJG. Everyone will have write-access to this folder, so if you have something interesting, please place it in there and then everyone else will automatically get it.

One thing I've been wondering: Everything says that PV wasn't discovered until after midnight. Hadn't MM gone home already? Didn't she go home at like 11pm or something?
 
Regarding the "pro/con" list regarding MM: Didn't FM say at some point that they'd "find Maura naked on top of [a] mountain" (paging Dr. Freud)? That didn't strike me as thinking she was dead -- at least whenever he said that. Also, I looked at the accident site on Google Street View, and there are houses with full visibility of the road in either direction. There's a small stretch going eastbound that may be at least partly obscured, and it was night, so I suppose it's still a possibility that she was grabbed and nobody saw.
 
Vox_Veritas_JT,

I just read on Wikipedia that she bought both Kahlua _and_ Bailey's. Do you have a conflicting report?
 
Vox_Veritas_JT said:
Just taking the above post as a jump off point.....

This case has more red herrings and unlikely wild theories than any other case which comes to mind. Renner's blog is indispensable but he does lean heavily toward an optimistic reading of the facts. In short he is looking for evidence which shows she ran away to start a new life and tends (in my view) to interpret evidence through this biased lens. I believe the way her family and her boyfriend (and his family) painted her as a saint damaged the investigation, Renner was brave enough to dig. I'm not judging anyone involved with Maura though, I cannot comprehend the pain they must be suffering. I must say the research on the Renner blog is exhaustive and thorough, I can't help but admire the time he has put in.

One of the more unreported facts in the case and which Renner established quite early was that contrary to popular belief all alcohol purchased that night was recovered from the car. Of course this partially excludes the red wine which was clearly being drunk from an empty coca cola bottle while Maura drove. The vodka & Baileys (I have seen this elsewhere referred to as Kalhlua) were found in the car and from what I gather were unopened. Renner got this information face to face with a police officer who accessed records on the case. The box of red wine was said to be empty but the box is also said to have broken open (perhaps due to the crash, more likely done when she initially opened it). Red wine stains are in various parts of the car apparently, including the roof upholstery. I think this all rules out the already shaky suicide by drinking theory. I always felt that amount of alcohol, which included the ingredients to make black Russians, pointed to Maura expecting company at some point that night. I know she subsequently left the alcohol in the car (along with the diamond necklace and books) but I think people often forget her state of mind after this accident. We have to remember that Maura is likely very panicked. Her main objective, arguably overriding everything else, is to flee from responding police. Do not forget this is Maura Murray's second auto accident in 3 days and she has very clearly been drinking before this crash. Furthermore due to her probation conditions relating to the C.C fraud she knows she will be in a great deal of trouble. Adding the citation from the first accident to this crash it all starts to stack up intimidatingly. So we have an at least partially intoxicated girl on the run who might have well suffered head injuries in the crash. My point being, she is not making plans, she just wants to get away from the car as quickly as possible to take stock of things. It is unlikely she is thinking in a logical manner at all in the minutes after the crash. Might she want to get away from the area so desperately and quickly that she will jump into the first car that comes along? Might she even flag the first car that comes along? This would be a risky thing to do but remember how desperate Maura likely is.

I have to confess I am firmly in the abduction camp on this case. When Renner claims it is so unlikely as to be impossible that she was abducted in such a short space of time I find it slightly misleading. This is for one reason, excellent and specific testimony of a red pick up in the immediate area at the immediate time . This red pick up is no rumor and was of such importance that police logs subsequently point to them tracing down more than a couple of cars that fit this description. Confusion exists precisely because more than one red pick up is mentioned in the logs.

The initial testimony concerning the red pick up is powerful and seems to be be fully legitimate and comes from a credible witness. The full testimony I will not quote here but it is available at Mr Renner's blog and elsewhere. To paraphrase, the woman who saw the pick up initially saw it paused in the middle of the road travelling on the road which led directly to the accident. This woman was walking to the gas station / store as she knew the owners. After she passed the pick up it moved past her. As the lady reached the gas station she saw the same pick up parked up under the lights. This lady had the impression the driver was watching her and wondered if the driver was lost. She said that she felt the scenario so suspicious that she made a point of noting the license plate as she approached. Before she could get close the red pick up pulled away and proceeded down the road toward the accident. When this lady went into the store she asked if the driver of this vehicle had been in at all and she was told whoever it was they had not been in the store. Note how suspicious the behavior of this red pick up is, I believe this is the reason that the woman recalls the scenario so well. Sadly what she didn't remember was the license plate number, but she did note that the plate was a local one (I wonder if she might be mistaken on this detail). What is very interesting is that the times fit right in for this driver to be happening on the accident and therefore Murray in the short period between the police first responder and Butch Atwood (the bus driver) going to his cabin to call police. Atwood himself said that no more that 5 or so cars passed when he was on the phone. Meanwhile the woman at the store stayed to help her friend close up and she mentions she saw the police drive by next, one of the police cars actually stopped to talk with her (as they knew each other). What we can be sure of is that this red pick up arrived at the crash scene before police. In fact the pick up likely arrived just a few minutes after the crash, precisely the point at which Atwood would be on the phone. The state of mind that Murray was in we just don't know how she would have reacted to the red pick up but I do think its fair to say that Maura might have been less attuned to a potentially dangerous situation due to what had just happened in league with having been drinking.

I think the odds get a great deal smaller of Maura running into a criminal opportunist when we consider first the suspicious behavior of this pick up and secondly the time frame of her disappearance. I have read a couple of places elsewhere from seemingly legit and trustworthy posters that they have heard from law enforcement contacts that 'if you find that red pick up then you solve the case'. This is hearsay of course but if we believe the statement of this woman then it seems to me the most likely scenario and trumps the tandem or staged crash theory.

I hope this is not the case, I do hope that this car was travelling in tandem with Murray. I am just not too much of an optimist though when you look at the statement and other details. I think most people agree that Murray was indeed running away that night, unlike some others I take the view she was looking for a break from her troubles, nothing permanent. I also think she was very likely meeting someone initially. I do not want to be pessimistic but I feel that either she fell victim to that person in the red pick up or fell victim to another opportunist, perhaps the one she was going to meet. What is obviously key is finding the person or persons that were in that red pick up. I believe we will find you one day Maura.
Click to expand...

All Alcohol was not recovered in Maura's car.

A smashed box of Franzia wine was found in the floor of the driver's side back seat.

A receipt was also found that detailed what alcohol Maura had purchased that day.

Bottles of alcohol were missing, as pointed out in an interview James Renner did with the lead investigator of the case.

An opened soda bottle with liquid still in it was found directly underneath from where Maura's car had been stuck. The soda bottle wasn't discovered until Maura''s car was towed. The investigating officer believed it (soda bottle) to have a strong odor of alcohol.

"All accounted for" noted by an officer who wasn't even investigating Maura's case, could have several different meanings, but it does not mean that they have all of Maura's alcohol stored away in a evidence locker somewhere.

It likely means that they believe they know exactly how much alcohol Maura had on her at the time she had her car wreck based off of what they found and what was on the receipt --- hence, all accounted for.

Maura took alcohol with her when she left the scene. She did not take her clothes, did not take her valuables, didn't take anything (that is to believed to be accounted for) other than her backpack and a few bottles of alcohol).

On another note: (just a possible new way to look at something)

Maura was familiar with the condo's she had called and inquired about because she had stayed in that area before on hiking trips with her family.

If She wanted to go back to the area, but was a little uneasy about how many people might be there at that time of the year, might she have made the call (not to try and make a reservation) but rather to try and gather some information about how busy they were etc.....?
 
bragi said:
Since it may be interesting, though it contains barely any useful information, I was able to retrieve an article that was posted on the "Daily Collegian" (a UMass-Amherst newspaper) about PV. It says it was published Feb 9 but I retrieved it as it existed on Feb 29, 2004.

If you'd like to look at an archived PDF version of the library, I've made it available in a Bittorrent Sync folder. I've also added another document and the Google Street View images of the last leg of MM's trip I created.

To use the Bittorrent Sync folder, download Bittorrent Sync and use this secret key: AXSAIKP2FZ4TKKILGTGLCJKLV3F5QEUJG. Everyone will have write-access to this folder, so if you have something interesting, please place it in there and then everyone else will automatically get it.

One thing I've been wondering: Everything says that PV wasn't discovered until after midnight. Hadn't MM gone home already? Didn't she go home at like 11pm or something?
Click to expand...


Petrit Vasi was found at 12:20 a.m.
Maura was on her shift which was scheduled to last to 2 a.m. (8 p.m. to 2 a.m.)

Maura was on her cell phone from 12:07 a.m. to 12:14 a.m.

Question is was she on her cell phone (which is a no-no while working) while sitting at her desk, or was she on a break and then decided to pull out her cell phone and call billy (possibly while driving somewhere to get something to eat/drink)

I believe vasi's hit and run happened somewhere between 12:10-12:15 a.m., based on personally visiting the area and coming to the conclusion that it was busy enough (car and foot traffic) that a hit and run with a person laying in the road wouldn't go un-noticed for very long. Police arrived at 12:20, so I believe the hit and run was just minutes earlier.

Others have said that same area is not busy at all. I was there on a sunday night in the summer and it was extremely busy. I almost struck someone with my rental car that night at that same spot.

Maura's supervisor found Maura upset at her work desk around 1 a.m. Maura was relieved of finishing out her final hour at the suggestion of the supervisor.

The supervisor had to physically lure Maura away from the desk at one point. Maura wasn't making any moves to pack up her back pack and be dismissed after the supervisor had already told her she was being relieved.

The supervisor literally went over to Maura at the desk and packed up Maura's things for her, carried Maura's backpack herself and started for the door herself to get Maura to follow. (So if this was all an act by Maura to get out of work for instance, then Maura was really laying it on thick)

Maura was distraught/devastated about something.

most of the questions Maura's supervisor asked went without a single answer from Maura. Maura just ignored the supervisor when the supervisor first encountered her and asked what was wrong. Maura stared right past the supervisor (who was at that point inches away from Maura's face and maura didn't say a single thing or even acknowledge that someone was talking to her.
 
Forgive me if this has been asked before - was there any connection between Maura and PV? Not saying she or her car were involved but could hearing about his accident have caused her to become so upset for some reason?
 
mommylicious said:
Forgive me if this has been asked before - was there any connection between Maura and PV? Not saying she or her car were involved but could hearing about his accident have caused her to become so upset for some reason?
Click to expand...

no credible link between the two as far I have been able to tell. (as I recall) vasi has stated publically he did not know maura.
 
Too me the Vasi accident is too convenient as a reason for Maura to disappear. I think the reason she ran was more personal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 88 more.
Total: 3,442 (members: 89, guests: 3,353)

Online statistics

Members online
89
Guests online
3,353
Total visitors
3,442
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
604,347
Messages
18,170,992
Members
232,420
Latest member
Txwoman
Back
Top