NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[justagirl247]

so just my thought on BR reaction or lack there of according to some .. if maura had be spinning out of control at that time odds are he was aware of this and may have just possibly thought this was just one more thing he may not have anticipated that it was as serious as it became and may have 100% expected that she would pop back up after a day or 2... I have no idea when this took place so its just a thought, weather the time frame would be fitting for that to make sense i am not sure of i only pop in and out on this thread, but as i was reading i thought of myself ...I had a friend when i was younger that had several incidents in a row and then suddenly disappeared none of us thought much off it, bc of the behavior she had recently displayed so we all just assumed it was yet another "stunt" honestly alot of us were pretty annoyed with the whole ordeal, in our case it was a much happier ending then in mauras case my friend was actually just pulling another stunt and did resurface after a day or to... so all i'm saying if judging his reaction to what he said/acted like was very soon after she went missing this could explain the lack of concern?

 

[goldiegirl]

Another thing to consider with BR's statements is that this is what he said to the press - it wasn't his first reaction that he had in front of anyone at all. I was initially one of the ones who was very disturbed by his comments. Then I took some time to think about it and realized that he'd likely already had his initial breakdowns and made different comments in front of others, and he could have still been in shock. If this had been the first thing he had said to anyone at all then I would find it very odd. But he probably took some time to compose himself before making these statements.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

My opinions only, no facts here:

I am very pleased to see that there is still so much interest in this case. Congratulations to everybody still posting here.

I have previously posted extensively about this case on Websleuths. I will revisit some of my main points here.

There was snow on the ground when Maura disappeared. Her tracks should have been visible if and where she left the main highway. Also, it has been ten years and nobody has found bones off of the main road or washed up along a stream. It has become less likely (but not yet impossible) over time that Maura ran off into the woods and died there.

The rag in the tailpipe would have been placed AFTER Maura slid off the road. An automobile WILL NOT WORK if the exhaust is blocked. It will stall immediately. In my day (when dinosaurs still roamed!), a cruel joke was to shove a potato up an exhaust pipe.

I have cut and pasted something I said more than two years ago on Websleuths: "I believe that no one named in this case (as a witness or otherwise) is directly involved with Maura's disappearance. I do not completely rule out the "Maura went on a marathon run down the road scenario", but only give that a 0.5 out of 7 chance of having occurred. The reason for this is because the tracking dog did NOT go miles down the road; it went 100 yards to where the scent ended. I also believe that the police acted professionally from day one. I only wish that I knew exactly how the police constructed their interviews while going door-to-door in the neighborhood. One thing that they should have asked is: do you have any relatives, friends of relatives, friends, or work associates living with you temporarily or temporarily living close to your house?"

In my personal judgment, what I have said above is the key to understanding this case.

From an even earlier post on Websleuths: "I personally believe that the tracking dog got it right, and I think that where the scent trail ended is relevant to this case. But I do not consider ANYBODY named to date as a potential person of interest.I would look for someone who was in their 20's to early 30's at the time of the crime, living off and on in the Jaffrey area, and with a prior criminal record that included violence towards women. I would consider the possibility of a link between the Brianna Maitland and Maura Murray disappearances. Because it was winter and the ground was somewhat frozen in both of these cases, I would look for victims in a well, old mine shaft or cave, or under the floor of a barn. The person who grabbed Maura (and possibly Brianna) has likely performed similar actions before and since. One way to break this case would be to examine any 'failed abductions' in the region from the late 1990's to after 2004 and see if witnesses provided sketches of a suspect. If more than one such incidence is uncovered, compare the suspect sketches."

Also pay attention to the possible significance of the Connecticut Valley Killer, although he is from the previous generation and was likely so infirm at the time of Maura Murray's disappearance that he should not have been interested in or capable of kidnapping Maura Murray. But he may still be important.

Think about it my friends.

Sleuth On!

 

[Mr. Noatak]

I must confess the more I consider the case, the more I re-read, the more I am convinced of Scoops post about suicide. Everything fits a suicidal pattern. Its very hard to explain the rag as anything but a confused suicidal action if you discount Fred's highly unlikely explanation. And we know Maura liked to drink but buying a box of wine, a bottle of vodka, a bottle of baileys and a bottle of Kalhua is going out in a blaze of glory type drinking, as is drinking red wine while behind the wheel.

I looked at the book 'Not Without Peril' that was found in Maura's car and contrary to what others have said the book is completely about death. Every single chapter details a death on the mountain range, coincidentally the exact mountain range Maura was heading toward. The book mentions that some remains have never been recovered. I do believe this book is a strong indication of Maura's state of mind that night. This is further strengthened for me by Maura only taking the alcohol while disregarding everything else when she left the scene. It indicates that Maura does not see a future for herself.

With the woman witnessing the red truck I cannot totally discount an abduction (after Maura flags the vehicle down for a ride) but at the same time I have the strong impression that Maura was running away from all people, from humanity. I'm not sure Maura wanted any help from anyone that night and I don't see her being abducted by force at that scene. Abduction is a very unlikely possibility for me now. I think Maura was determined to accomplish something that night and, sadly, I believe she succeeded.

By the way could I ask someone what number Ammonoosuc Road it was that Maura vanished? (I am using Google Earth so any info I can use in conjunction with this would be well appreciated - Many thanks)

I am searching maps for the bend and I am having trouble pinpointing the location. To be fair to Maura that does look like an incredibly difficult area to drive at night.

My opinions only, no facts here:

A long time ago, I wrote a series of long posts here about Maura's state-of-mind on her "road-trip". I agree with you and others here that she may have been suicidal. I just think that the evidence supports abduction over suicide.

I have always been interested in the red truck.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

OK,

I intend to consolidate and re-post some of my analyses (from Websleuths) of the Maura Murray case. This will be useful to newer readers of this thread.

Give me a little bit of time to accomplish this.

 

[BillNH]

My opinions only, no facts here:

A long time ago, I wrote a series of long posts here about Maura's state-of-mind on her "road-trip". I agree with you and others here that she may have been suicidal. I just think that the evidence supports abduction over suicide.

I have always been interested in the red truck.

I do not believe there is any evidence at all to support abduction. It may have been what happened (small possibility IMO) but there certainly is nothing that points to it other than her disappearing. Like every other theory on this case anything we consider evidence is circumstantial and anecdotal. Each persons favorite theory, IMO, is based more on each persons personal feelings, experiences and fears. The known elements can lead ones mind to many different theories but there is "evidence" of none.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

The tree is at

275-303 Wild Ammonoosuc Rd., Woodsville, NH 03785 on google maps. Just after "The weathered Barn"

Many Thanks. Bittersweet to see the blue bow around the tree which marks the spot. It is an area of such sublime beauty, purely on an aesthetic level I can understand the attraction to the area that Maura had.

Maura was so close to the Mountain Range discussed in the book 'Not without Peril'. I do feel the presence of that book in the car is very important to the case. Why it is important is another matter and open to interpretation.

Incidentally, James Renner did an AMA for Reddit Sunday gone, if you haven't checked out it out its worth taking a look as it discusses the Maura Murray case in some detail. It surprised me that Renner believes there is a 90% chance that Murray is still alive, seems very high but perhaps I am a pessimist.

The link to the AMA can be found by going through Renner's Maura Murray page which takes you to the unsolved mysteries reddit, I did try to link it here but it is blocking the address.

 

[Lolacat]

Many Thanks. Bittersweet to see the blue bow around the tree which marks the spot. It is an area of such sublime beauty, purely on an aesthetic level I can understand the attraction to the area that Maura had.

Maura was so close to the Mountain Range discussed in the book 'Not without Peril'. I do feel the presence of that book in the car is very important to the case. Why it is important is another matter and open to interpretation.

Incidentally, James Renner did an AMA for Reddit Sunday gone, if you haven't checked out it out its worth taking a look as it discusses the Maura Murray case in some detail. It surprised me that Renner believes there is a 90% chance that Murray is still alive, seems very high but perhaps I am a pessimist.

The link to the AMA can be found by going through Renner's Maura Murray page which takes you to the unsolved mysteries reddit, I did try to link it here but it is blocking the address.

I just looked at the AMA. This intrigues me:

"There are two mysteries here: 1. what happened to maura murray 2. why she was in New Hampshire that day......I believe I have solved answer 2. I believe she was running away from her father". (quote from the AMA)

What if Maura lied to her father about needing the money for a new car and that her car was on its last legs? Her father, not wanting her to drop out of college or have any reason not to continue her studies, draws out $4,000 in cash for her to buy a new car. They go round looking at cars but maura insists none of them are right. Fred leaves the money with her. She absconds with the money to start a new life. Fred is distraught- KNOWING she has absconded with his money, insists over and over that what happened prior "does not matter" because he knows maura has betrayed him and he does not want her to feel so guilty that she wont return. He will also never reveal that she has stolen his money because it reflects badly on both her and him. It would also explain one of his first comments about "I dont know what the matter is or the trouble you think you might be in".

It still doesnt fit many of the other pieces of the puzzle, but I keep wondering- what was that money for? They certainly didnt buy a car with it.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

I do not believe there is any evidence at all to support abduction. It may have been what happened (small possibility IMO) but there certainly is nothing that points to it other than her disappearing. Like every other theory on this case anything we consider evidence is circumstantial and anecdotal. Each persons favorite theory, IMO, is based more on each persons personal feelings, experiences and fears. The known elements can lead ones mind to many different theories but there is "evidence" of none.

My opinions only, no facts here:

My friend, what you say is a logical non sequitur; that is- a logical conclusion does not follow from the logical argument. Your logical argument is that we cannot prove that Maura Murray was abducted AND we cannot prove that she was not abducted. This leads to the conclusion that no event happened at all.

The way I would state your case this is: something happened to make Maura Murray disappear, and it follows that some people will have previously posted the correct theory and some people will have previously posted an incorrect theory. But without hard evidence, we cannot tell who is correct and who is incorrect.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

Many Thanks. Bittersweet to see the blue bow around the tree which marks the spot. It is an area of such sublime beauty, purely on an aesthetic level I can understand the attraction to the area that Maura had.

Maura was so close to the Mountain Range discussed in the book 'Not without Peril'. I do feel the presence of that book in the car is very important to the case. Why it is important is another matter and open to interpretation.

Incidentally, James Renner did an AMA for Reddit Sunday gone, if you haven't checked out it out its worth taking a look as it discusses the Maura Murray case in some detail. It surprised me that Renner believes there is a 90% chance that Murray is still alive, seems very high but perhaps I am a pessimist.

The link to the AMA can be found by going through Renner's Maura Murray page which takes you to the unsolved mysteries reddit, I did try to link it here but it is blocking the address.

My opinions only, no facts here:

If Maura Murray is still alive, I suppose she could be in places such as Canada, Alaska, or American Samoa. The U.S Virgin Islands are another good place. I doubt that she could have stayed out-of-sight in the lower 48 states for ten years. It makes me wonder- did she have a passport with her? If so, were passport records checked for the time period following Maura's disappearance?

 

[Mr. Noatak]

I just looked at the AMA. This intrigues me:

"There are two mysteries here: 1. what happened to maura murray 2. why she was in New Hampshire that day......I believe I have solved answer 2. I believe she was running away from her father". (quote from the AMA)

What if Maura lied to her father about needing the money for a new car and that her car was on its last legs? Her father, not wanting her to drop out of college or have any reason not to continue her studies, draws out $4,000 in cash for her to buy a new car. They go round looking at cars but maura insists none of them are right. Fred leaves the money with her. She absconds with the money to start a new life. Fred is distraught- KNOWING she has absconded with his money, insists over and over that what happened prior "does not matter" because he knows maura has betrayed him and he does not want her to feel so guilty that she wont return. He will also never reveal that she has stolen his money because it reflects badly on both her and him. It would also explain one of his first comments about "I dont know what the matter is or the trouble you think you might be in".

It still doesnt fit many of the other pieces of the puzzle, but I keep wondering- what was that money for? They certainly didnt buy a car with it.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Your post is interesting and well thought-out. When I complete the editing and collating of a few of my long-ago posts, the subject of 'what was Maura thinking?' will be addressed. I do believe that she had a good relationship with her father and did not want to disappoint him.

 

[BillNH]

My opinions only, no facts here:

My friend, what you say is a logical non sequitur; that is- a logical conclusion does not follow from the logical argument. Your logical argument is that we cannot prove that Maura Murray was abducted AND we cannot prove that she was not abducted. This leads to the conclusion that no event happened at all.

The way I would state your case this is: something happened to make Maura Murray disappear, and it follows that some people will have previously posted the correct theory and some people will have previously posted an incorrect theory. But without hard evidence, we cannot tell who is correct and who is incorrect.

I made my point correctly, you missed the point. People's view of what happened to MM stems more from inside the individual since there is no evidence pointing to what really happened.

 

[Fireweed]

So Renner thinks that Maura was running away from her father. Yeah I guess that makes some sense. She could have dumper her boyfriend, changed schools or taken a gap year, but she never, ever could have changed who her dad was. I noticed that Fred leaves open the possibility that Maura may not have contacted him were she alive. He says that if Maura would not have called him, then she would have at least called one of her sisters.

I recall when I first read about this case at the five year anniversary. I think I have mentioned here that I am a recovering alcoholic. Well anyway, Maura withdrew $280 and spent $40 of it on booze. I remember thinking that $280 was all the money I would have for a week or two in college and that I never spent $40 on booze at one time. I would get a box of Franzia wine (like what Maura had), or maybe a $10 bottle of vodka, but I never would have bought so much booze at once if I only had $280 to my name. This is the main reason that I think that Maura went north with way more than $240.

The only thing that throws me is the email from Billy on top of her stuff. I think she was running from Billy too, and I think that is why Billy seems relatively indifferent about this whole case. Their relationship was rocky, and, like many college romances, was coming to an end as the couple left their teen years behind and entered their 20's.

My opinion? Both Fred and Billy had a huge amount of control over Maura's life. Even at Umass, away from Billy and away from her father, their control was still smothering to Maura. I do not think Maura was "promiscuous," I think that was simply the only way that she knew to take back a small amount of control over her life. She could have a secret boyfriend from time to time and feel independent and free during those moments.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

My opinions only, no facts here:

PART ONE-

According to the “My Search for Maura Murray” site, the official who led the investigation for the first five years stated that a bloodhound was used to track Maura’s scent from the accident scene within two days of her accident and disappearance. For readers who want to know what a top bloodhound can do with a scent, Google “Yogi” and “Alie Berrelez”. This is the most amazing story ever told about a bloodhound’s ability.

If it ever turns out that a regular police dog (German Shepherd or the like) was used to track Maura Murray, then two days would be too long.

But if a bloodhound was used within only two days, it could track Maura Murray up the road with both paws tied behind its back! If Maura had run down the road for miles, any bloodhound would have easily followed her scent trail. Unfortunately, the average bloodhound cannot track the scent of a person once they get into a vehicle and speed off. But Yogi the bloodhound could easily track someone in a vehicle and he could do it for tens and tens of miles across a city and on the freeway and through the countryside.

To make a long story short, the bloodhound’s nose did not lie. Maura Murray must have gotten into a vehicle where the scent was lost. This does not prove that she was abducted by the driver of the vehicle.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

My opinions only, no facts here:

PART TWO-

One detail of the Maura Murray case that interests me is this: if Maura Murray hurried 100 yards northeast down Route 112 after her accident and then got into some vehicle, why did one or more of the immediate neighbors not notice this? There was already significant awareness that an accident had occurred. If readers want to understand how very visible this accident actually was to neighbors, go to: http://web.archive.org/web/20100217...sing-part-ii-the-accident&catid=912&Itemid=83

What I am getting at here is that IF somebody was driving through the neighborhood in either direction on Route 112 and picked up Maura Murray, it is likely that the now-curious neighbors would have connected the dots. Likewise, if Maura went on a run for many miles northeast along Route 112, she would have been observed by many drivers. Just in the short time that the bus driver made a 911 call to report the accident, he saw other cars passing by. I mean at that time of night and in the winter how would only one driver (a local coming home from work supposedly saw an odd figure far down Route 112) not notice Maura zooming down the road on her supposed marathon run? There should have been multiple witnesses to the hypothetical event that Maura ran down Route 112 for many miles to the northeast.

My best explanation is that a vehicle was coincidentally traveling northwest on Bradley Hill Road and arrived at the junction with Route 112 at the same time that Maura reached it. The occupant of the home immediately east of this junction was not home from work yet, so there may have been no close witness to this hypothetical event. I do not know whether the home immediately south of the junction was occupied at the time with potential witnesses. Anyway, the driver could have picked up Maura, turned around, and traveled back up Bradley Hill Road so as not to be seen by the neighbors on Route 112.

I believe that this story may be more about Bradley Hill Road than Route 112.

PART THREE to follow later.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

My opinions only, no facts here:

PART THREE-

To me the Maura Murray case is akin to a teenager who runs away from home to the nearest bus station or truck stop or bar or city-park or beach and is never seen again. Their history is frozen at the moment of their disappearance. Naturally, as part of the investigation, you study their life before their disappearance under a microscope. You will always find all sorts of oddities in their life, leading up to the moment they ‘ran away from home’ and disappeared. Regarding any of us: if your history ended at this moment and everything in your past was scrutinized under a microscope without you there to explain and defend it, what would we see? However, all of these oddities become mere "white noise" when measured against the risks taken by a lone and confused young woman on a road-trip through “foreign” lands. Local male criminals quickly notice out-of-state or out-of-county plates on vehicles driven by lone young women at night OR notice desperate young women running down a road after dark.

I personally believe that Maura was out-of-sorts, but more manic than depressed, and was on some "road trip" that is psychologically-akin to running away from home. But I also believe that she was abducted closely down the road from her wrecked car, only for the reason that she happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is a "fight or flight" aspect to everybody's personality. It takes a certain event or more commonly a chain of successive events for this happen. After Maura wrecked her father's car, something snapped. Something driven by guilt over the accident and a thousand, nay a million snippets of prior history that define everyone's individual and fascinating personality. Maura decided to go on a road trip for soul-searching and with the childish thought in the back of her mind that she would rent a room up north and call her father and have him come up and visit with her near the old location where they used to go when she was a little girl. Maura is not a party animal, but bought some alcohol and was sipping it as she went. That is only natural (in spite of open container laws), because she was stressed (probably her immediate problem was that her cortisol levels were elevated) and just wishing to stay calm. Unfortunately, she was not 100% sober when she rounded the bend on Wild Ammonoosuc Road (Route 112) in wintery conditions, so she slid off. Now, she is really feeling frantic- what if the cops come and arrest her for DUI? She is wrestling with feelings of guilt, remorse, and confusion (even though in reality she has done nothing wrong in my book, but I come from a different time and place). She was offered help by a bus driver, but refused it. She walked or ran 100 yards to the junction with Bradley Hill Road at about 1 Wild Ammonoosuc Road. That is where the bloodhound tracked her. That is where the scent ended. That is where she disappeared. Prior to the event of her disappearance at that location, everything that happened previously becomes "white noise" and unrelated.

PART FOUR TO FOLLOW

 

[Mr. Noatak]

My opinions only, no facts here:

PART FOUR-

I believe that a crime occurred at Bradley Hill Road at about 1 Wild Ammonoosuc Road (at the junction). I am aware of the rag previously stuffed in the tailpipe of Maura’s car. I acknowledge it could have been sabotage by another or even a suicide attempt, but this detail somehow seems so irreverent that it has to be overlooked for now. I will point out that if an exhaust pipe is FULLY obstructed, a vehicle will NOT RUN OR START. But if someone were to argue that all of the white noise in this case ended when the car slid off the road and the initial crime occurred right there, I would not vehemently argue against them. But I still personally believe (from the supposed bloodhound evidence) that Maura walked or ran the 100 yards from the car wreck to Bradley Hill Road at about 1 Wild Ammonoosuc Road by herself. The people who permanently lived around the location of Maura’s disappearance all seem to be respectable and decent. Some of them have subsequently been hounded and I cannot blame them if they are tired of talking. The officers who stopped by the accident scene early on (but Maura was already gone), also appear to be stalwart individuals who acted professionally. I suggest the sleuth look a wee bit beyond the presently-known names for a POI or suspect.

Within 48 hours of hearing about this case on ID Discovery some years ago, I had one POI and one suspect. Man, I wish I had access to the resources that the official investigators have! As I have repeatedly stressed in many of my previous posts on Websleuths, I do not consider ANY of the people historically-named during routine reporting of this case over the years as a directly-involved POI or suspect.

PART FIVE TO FOLLOW

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I was thinking yesterday that if we could answer the mystery around the amount of alcohol Maura purchased then it would strongly indicate what Maura's motivations were as she drove away. The question being, was that alcohol for Maura alone or was it for Maura and other people? The alcohol should be of key importance to us as it clearly was of key importance to Maura, it's the main (and heaviest) thing she takes from the car.

I wonder if Renner or anyone else managed to track down the person who served the alcohol to Maura? A chance exchange between Maura and the server over the amount of alcohol she purchased might tell us something, as might her demeanor during the purchase. Did Maura know exactly what she wanted already? Did she take time in picking out what she wanted?

The difficulties of getting a store clerk to remember serving someone ten years ago notwithstanding, perhaps I am grasping at straws. Straws are all we seem to have left though, sadly.

 

[Jerri Blank]

I was thinking yesterday that if we could answer the mystery around the amount of alcohol Maura purchased then it would strongly indicate what Maura's motivations were as she drove away. The question being, was that alcohol for Maura alone or was it for Maura and other people? The alcohol should be of key importance to us as it clearly was of key importance to Maura, it's the main (and heaviest) thing she takes from the car.

I wonder if Renner or anyone else managed to track down the person who served the alcohol to Maura? A chance exchange between Maura and the server over the amount of alcohol she purchased might tell us something, as might her demeanor during the purchase. Did Maura know exactly what she wanted already? Did she take time in picking out what she wanted?

The difficulties of getting a store clerk to remember serving someone ten years ago notwithstanding, perhaps I am grasping at straws. Straws are all we seem to have left though, sadly.

are you saying you think she bought more than has been reported? or that you are wondering if what did she did buy was intended for her and at least one other person, rather than just her?

i have to be honest, every time the alcohol comes up in the thread, you all make me feel like quite the lush :blushing: i look at the amount reported and think nothing of it being intended for one person for a few days. it really just doesnt seem like that much to me when i think of life as a carefree 21-yr-old....

actually, if i am completely honest, i am now 30 and a "proper adult" (married, homeowner, steady job, baby, etc etc) and when we head up to our summer house for a long weekend, i STILL wouldnt see 1 box of wine, 1 bottle of kahlua and some baileys as a signal i was intent on drinking myself to death. i wouldnt finish it all, but i would make a proper dent over 3 nights of unwinding for sure

 

[BillNH]

My opinions only, no facts here:

PART ONE-

According to the “My Search for Maura Murray” site, the official who led the investigation for the first five years stated that a bloodhound was used to track Maura’s scent from the accident scene within two days of her accident and disappearance. For readers who want to know what a top bloodhound can do with a scent, Google “Yogi” and “Alie Berrelez”. This is the most amazing story ever told about a bloodhound’s ability.

If it ever turns out that a regular police dog (German Shepherd or the like) was used to track Maura Murray, then two days would be too long.

But if a bloodhound was used within only two days, it could track Maura Murray up the road with both paws tied behind its back! If Maura had run down the road for miles, any bloodhound would have easily followed her scent trail. Unfortunately, the average bloodhound cannot track the scent of a person once they get into a vehicle and speed off. But Yogi the bloodhound could easily track someone in a vehicle and he could do it for tens and tens of miles across a city and on the freeway and through the countryside.

To make a long story short, the bloodhound’s nose did not lie. Maura Murray must have gotten into a vehicle where the scent was lost. This does not prove that she was abducted by the driver of the vehicle.

The same blog you cited above contains a post from a NH law enforcement official with knowledge of Maura's case as well as knowledge of NH dogs used in searches. He states that the dogs used were not very useful after 2 days had past. This leads me to believe it was not the bloodhound dog you refer to. The lack of NHLE concluding that Maura definitely left the roadway after 100 yards leads me to believe the dog search was inconclusive as we'll. doesn't this change your theory? If you are updating old posts, why did you not include this bit of information?