NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Lolacat]

RE: the alcohol. I have always thought that was an odd choice to get if you planned to drink yourself to death on a mountain. White russians/cocktails require mixing. If I wanted to get wasted quickly and without ceremony I'd have got large bottles of jack, vodka or tequila.

 

[BillNH]

RE: the alcohol. I have always thought that was an odd choice to get if you planned to drink yourself to death on a mountain. White russians/cocktails require mixing. If I wanted to get wasted quickly and without ceremony I'd have got large bottles of jack, vodka or tequila.

If it were me, knowing that I was going to walk miles into the mountains and drink myself to sleep to succumb to the cold, I would choose something I enjoyed to drink. There is no need for speed and if you were very contemplative about it, you wouldn't want to drink hard liquor right out of the bottle only to vomit it up before you were good and drunk. Knowing the mountains, you know that once pleasantly drunk it would be extremely difficult to just walk out the way you came and even if you had second thoughts once drunk, you probably wouldn't make it without falling over a ledge or into a ravine. Her choice seems perfectly fitting to me if it's what she liked.

 

[Fireweed]

Speaking as an alcoholic (recovering), I see Maura's alcoholic purchases as a signal that she was going somewhere to at least try and enjoy herself, not to kill herself. An alcoholic on a bum trip buys wine, beer, and whiskey or vodka. Someone buying everything you need to make mudslides is out looking for a party.

I bartended for many, many years. I have seen it all. People ordering mudslides are at least attempting to have fun and party. People on a depression bender are sucking down beer, house wine, and Jack on the rocks. Mudslides are also something that young women like to drink; they are sweet and go down easy, but you have to "make" them. This is why I do not think that Maura was planning on go off into the woods when she bought the alcohol. She was planning on being someplace later on that day where she could make herself a drink. I think the wine was to hold her over until she got to her final destination where there would be a surface or table and access to ice.

 

[Lolacat]

Speaking as an alcoholic (recovering), I see Maura's alcoholic purchases as a signal that she was going somewhere to at least try and enjoy herself, not to kill herself. An alcoholic on a bum trip buys wine, beer, and whiskey or vodka. Someone buying everything you need to make mudslides is out looking for a party.

I bartended for many, many years. I have seen it all. People ordering mudslides are at least attempting to have fun and party. People on a depression bender are sucking down beer, house wine, and Jack on the rocks. Mudslides are also something that young women like to drink; they are sweet and go down easy, but you have to "make" them. This is why I do not think that Maura was planning on go off into the woods when she bought the alcohol. She was planning on being someplace later on that day where she could make herself a drink. I think the wine was to hold her over until she got to her final destination where there would be a surface or table and access to ice.

This was kind of where I was going too. Purely from a practical point of view, cocktails are not easy to take up a mountain side. Plus, if she was suicidal then I dont think fun/enjoyment would have been on the agenda. Many people commit suicide by attempting to mix OTC pain meds and alcohol and that can make you feel like sheer crap before you pass out- it can also cause serious liver problems, if you survive. From my perspective, when you set out to kill yourself ( a determined attempt btw- not a *cry for help* type attempt) you are focusing on the end result- what you can do to achieve the end result of death, not what feels good/pleasant- that is the unfortunate filter of the depressed mind through which the world is viewed. Although, I do agree that people often stick with what is familiar to them- we all have our familiar patterns.

 

[Fireweed]

I simply do not think that Maura committed suicide (at least not that night). Unless she had a firearm or a sharp knife with her, I find it nearly improbable that she walked into the cold, dark woods all by herself and sat there until she died.

Besides, that was clearly not her plan only a few hours before. Her plan was to go to Bartlett and stay in a condo. She never rented the condo, but based upon her route, I am going to assume that her plan was still to go to Bartlett. Maura did not leave Amherst with the intention of going off into the woods that night to die (sheet, she could have done that in the Amherst area). Her plan was to go up to Bartlett to some kind of dwelling place where she could make mudslides.

 

[Tssiemer]

Typically women who attempt suicide with alcohol and drugs and not violent weapons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fireweed]

True, but that has a low success rate overall. Women who complete suicide are likely to have used drugs, but those who attempt suicide using drugs/alcohol have low probability of success. I am saying that if Maura completed suicide that night, than more likely than not she used a firearm, knife, hanging or jumping method, as those are the methods that are highly likely to result in death. Sitting outside and drinking some booze is far less likely to result in a completed suicide.

I still do not think Maura was suicidal. She very clearly intended (earlier that day), to continue with her life at least long enough to need overnight accommodations and have a few party girl cocktails.

 

[scoops]

If we are going off purely what is known.

Nothing points to abduction.
Nothing points to meeting up with a buddy for a weekend of party and drinks.
Nothing points to starting up a new life in Canada.

So what does that leave ...

Maura's father believed she came to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself. (once his daughter's case became public, strategically wise, he changed his tune to keep pressure on police).

Maura was an avid hiker and lover of the white mountains in particular, who loved the book Not Without Peril which is all about people who entered the white mountains ill-prepared yet came up with creative ways to at least attempt to survive. I will go out on a limb and say Maura really enjoyed those stories and was not horrified by the stories end results.

Maura tied up loose ends before she left.
Maura left a personal note on top of her packed up boxes on top of her bed.
Maura headed right for the white mountains.
Maura at least packed Tylenol PM with her as well.
Mixing Tylenol PM with alcohol is a no-no.

Maura did not take clothes or valuables when she ditched her car, just alcohol and a backpack.


The dog search that led 100-feet from her car WAS NOT A SURPRISE TO THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS. They knew it had been days later and the dog that was used wasn't going to be very effective (even before they started the scent trail).

At best, the dog search gave them a starting point, because the dog did pick up her scent from her car going EAST on foot. That is all they officially got out of the search, everything else is complete speculation.


Everyone keeps bringing up this mixed drinks theory and that Maura was in a "party" mood.

Keep in mind, Maura likely was wanting to stay the night somewhere (hence the opportunity to make her favorite drinks) it was her wreck that changed her plans. Maura grabbed what alcohol was left and dashed away from the accident site.

Wishful thinking would have Maura starting a new life somewhere and living happily ever after.

Unfortunately, we live in reality.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

The same blog you cited above contains a post from a NH law enforcement official with knowledge of Maura's case as well as knowledge of NH dogs used in searches. He states that the dogs used were not very useful after 2 days had past. This leads me to believe it was not the bloodhound dog you refer to. The lack of NHLE concluding that Maura definitely left the roadway after 100 yards leads me to believe the dog search was inconclusive as we'll. doesn't this change your theory? If you are updating old posts, why did you not include this bit of information?

My opinions only, no facts here:

I am aware of a great deal of information about the Maura Murray case. But when I choose to present every alternative, my posts become enormous. For example, read my recent Holly Bobo timeline post. It goes on forever, because it has to account for every possibility. I am trying to keep my posts here shorter and to the point.

But, as I stated in my PART ONE post above: "If it ever turns out that a regular police dog (German Shepherd or the like) was used to track Maura Murray, then two days would be too long." This is an unambiguous representation that I accept the possibility a bloodhound may not have been used. In fact, a long time ago I believed that a bloodhound was not used, but the original interview with the lead Detective in the Maura Murray case is the best info I can find- and he said it was a bloodhound. I have searched the internet about this and around 90% of the hits report that a bloodhound was used. But I am still searching for something that I would consider an indisputable statement on the matter.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

If we are going off purely what is known.

Nothing points to abduction.
Nothing points to meeting up with a buddy for a weekend of party and drinks.
Nothing points to starting up a new life in Canada.

So what does that leave ...

Maura's father believed she came to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself. (once his daughter's case became public, strategically wise, he changed his tune to keep pressure on police).

Maura was an avid hiker and lover of the white mountains in particular, who loved the book Not Without Peril which is all about people who entered the white mountains ill-prepared yet came up with creative ways to at least attempt to survive. I will go out on a limb and say Maura really enjoyed those stories and was not horrified by the stories end results.

Maura tied up loose ends before she left.
Maura left a personal note on top of her packed up boxes on top of her bed.
Maura headed right for the white mountains.
Maura at least packed Tylenol PM with her as well.
Mixing Tylenol PM with alcohol is a no-no.

Maura did not take clothes or valuables when she ditched her car, just alcohol and a backpack.


The dog search that led 100-feet from her car WAS NOT A SURPRISE TO THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS. They knew it had been days later and the dog that was used wasn't going to be very effective (even before they started the scent trail).

At best, the dog search gave them a starting point, because the dog did pick up her scent from her car going EAST on foot. That is all they officially got out of the search, everything else is complete speculation.


Everyone keeps bringing up this mixed drinks theory and that Maura was in a "party" mood.

Keep in mind, Maura likely was wanting to stay the night somewhere (hence the opportunity to make her favorite drinks) it was her wreck that changed her plans. Maura grabbed what alcohol was left and dashed away from the accident site.

Wishful thinking would have Maura starting a new life somewhere and living happily ever after.

Unfortunately, we live in reality.

My opinions only, no facts here:

You say: "At best, the dog search gave them a starting point, because the dog did pick up her scent from her car going EAST on foot."

In order for a dog to determine the direction of a scent, there must be a scent trail. I mean, in order to have a direction, there has to be a length. It is widely stated that the dog went 100 yards and lost the scent. This detail remains important. 100 yards.

Intentional suicide or death from exposure do remain possible. But, ten years now and no remains found.

I have never been a very strong supporter of the idea that Maura started a new life somewhere else. It is possible of course. There are precedents.

There sure have been a LOT of women who were murdered and/or disappeared under suspicious circumstances in New England over the years.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

True, but that has a low success rate overall. Women who complete suicide are likely to have used drugs, but those who attempt suicide using drugs/alcohol have low probability of success. I am saying that if Maura completed suicide that night, than more likely than not she used a firearm, knife, hanging or jumping method, as those are the methods that are highly likely to result in death. Sitting outside and drinking some booze is far less likely to result in a completed suicide.

I still do not think Maura was suicidal. She very clearly intended (earlier that day), to continue with her life at least long enough to need overnight accommodations and have a few party girl cocktails.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Maura was exhibiting signs of excess cortisol, presumably caused by stress and worry. In cases of true clinical depression, a person commonly does not want to even leave their home, let alone go on a wandering road trip.

People with elevated cortisol commonly drink alcohol to self-medicate.

Having said this, excess cortisol can lead to suicide. But I do not think that Maura committed suicide.

What I have observed is that female suicide victims commonly did not mutilate their body, particularly their head. In fact, I feel so strongly about this that I am always initially VERY skeptical of cases where the officials determined that a female committed suicide by shooting herself.

 

[scoops]

My opinions only, no facts here:

You say: "At best, the dog search gave them a starting point, because the dog did pick up her scent from her car going EAST on foot."

In order for a dog to determine the direction of a scent, there must be a scent trail. I mean, in order to have a direction, there has to be a length. It is widely stated that the dog went 100 yards and lost the scent. This detail remains important. 100 yards.

Intentional suicide or death from exposure do remain possible. But, ten years now and no remains found.

I have never been a very strong supporter of the idea that Maura started a new life somewhere else. It is possible of course. There are precedents.

There sure have been a LOT of women who were murdered and/or disappeared under suspicious circumstances in New England over the years.

I should have clarified.

Before the first-ever (Canine team) searched for Maura, they were estimating that the dog would give them about 100 yards worth of scent trace before the dog would lose the scent. And that is precisely what happened.

It wasn't a big revelation when the dog stopped searching at the intersection of Rt. 112 and Bradley Hill Rd. It was expected.

The intial dog search was On Feb 11, 2004 and was done by a police officer's K9.

On feb 19, 2004 a Belgian shepherd (Malinois) searched for Maura with no results

Most dog searches after that like the one in October of 2006 involved purely cadaver dogs.

 

[BillNH]

This was kind of where I was going too. Purely from a practical point of view, cocktails are not easy to take up a mountain side. Plus, if she was suicidal then I dont think fun/enjoyment would have been on the agenda. Many people commit suicide by attempting to mix OTC pain meds and alcohol and that can make you feel like sheer crap before you pass out- it can also cause serious liver problems, if you survive. From my perspective, when you set out to kill yourself ( a determined attempt btw- not a *cry for help* type attempt) you are focusing on the end result- what you can do to achieve the end result of death, not what feels good/pleasant- that is the unfortunate filter of the depressed mind through which the world is viewed. Although, I do agree that people often stick with what is familiar to them- we all have our familiar patterns.

The "old squaw" comment resonates with me. Even though it's Fred's comment I tend to think Maura was of the same type of mindset. Set aside statistics and probabilities for a moment. Why does the old squaw walk off into the mountains? She does it to keep herself from being a burden to her family as she is less able to be helpful, and to do it peacefully, to give herself to Mother Earth. She willingly puts herself into a situation that she cannot get out of easily and will likely result in her demise. She does it out of love for her family and respect for nature. To me, this sounds like the type of person Maura would be. I'm not sold on the suicide theory, but if she made the decision to do it, I think she very well may have taken her mixed drinks up to the mountains and peacefully, happily gave herself to nature.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

If we are going off purely what is known.

Nothing points to abduction.
Nothing points to meeting up with a buddy for a weekend of party and drinks.
Nothing points to starting up a new life in Canada.

So what does that leave ...

Maura's father believed she came to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself. (once his daughter's case became public, strategically wise, he changed his tune to keep pressure on police).

Maura was an avid hiker and lover of the white mountains in particular, who loved the book Not Without Peril which is all about people who entered the white mountains ill-prepared yet came up with creative ways to at least attempt to survive. I will go out on a limb and say Maura really enjoyed those stories and was not horrified by the stories end results.

Maura tied up loose ends before she left.
Maura left a personal note on top of her packed up boxes on top of her bed.
Maura headed right for the white mountains.
Maura at least packed Tylenol PM with her as well.
Mixing Tylenol PM with alcohol is a no-no.

Maura did not take clothes or valuables when she ditched her car, just alcohol and a backpack.


The dog search that led 100-feet from her car WAS NOT A SURPRISE TO THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS. They knew it had been days later and the dog that was used wasn't going to be very effective (even before they started the scent trail).

At best, the dog search gave them a starting point, because the dog did pick up her scent from her car going EAST on foot. That is all they officially got out of the search, everything else is complete speculation.


Everyone keeps bringing up this mixed drinks theory and that Maura was in a "party" mood.

Keep in mind, Maura likely was wanting to stay the night somewhere (hence the opportunity to make her favorite drinks) it was her wreck that changed her plans. Maura grabbed what alcohol was left and dashed away from the accident site.

Wishful thinking would have Maura starting a new life somewhere and living happily ever after.

Unfortunately, we live in reality.

I think this nicely summarizes the case. We can only deal with likelihood when we look at the case and I think Maura taking off on her own toward the Mountains is most likely what happened. I don't like calling the theory a case of suicide so much as we will perhaps never know Maura's intent straight after the accident. Its perhaps more accurate to call it a case of death by misadventure.

There is one clue in the case that I believe is hard to subscribe to anything but suicidal intent or perhaps at a stretch 'chaotic thinking'. I will never believe that the clean rag recovered from the exhaust was put there to stop the Saturn smoking. This leaves only two possible explanations for me. Either Maura put the rag there in a confused attempt at suicide or at a stretch the rag is put there by Maura after the accident in a confused attempt to damage or destroy the car. Both explanations lack logical thinking on her part but I would argue logic is going to be pretty far from Maura at that point who has just been in an accident and is at least partially effected by the red wine she has been drinking. Maura is likely further thrown into further turmoil as she realizes she must avoid LE at all costs, perhaps it is this realization that makes her break off from whatever she is doing with the rag to flee the area.

I'd still maintain the importance of the alcohol by virtue of how important it clearly was to Maura that night. The choice of alcohol is no indication of anything to me and it would be silly to read much into it, other than this is what she probably likes to drink. For those saying that neat liquor would more indicate suicide, bear in mind how hard quantities of neat liquor are to consume, particularly without ice. Mixer of any sort and Vodka is what people drink around here to get as drunk as quickly as possible.

I still think it was a missed opportunity if nobody spoke to the server who attended to Maura when she purchased all that alcohol, could yield something (her demeanor / possible conversation) , could yield nothing but it is certainly a lead.

 

[Lolacat]

I was just browsing through the "Not without Peril" book and I didnt realise that there is a series of mountain huts actually located on various parts of the White Mountains. You can reserve overnight bunks there and from June to September they are staffed. They are open the rest of the year on a self-service basis.

The wiki entry:
High Huts of the White Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if one of these huts was part of Maura's plan? they would have been almost deserted in February, I would have thought.

 

[scoops]

I was just browsing through the "Not without Peril" book and I didnt realise that there is a series of mountain huts actually located on various parts of the White Mountains. You can reserve overnight bunks there and from June to September they are staffed. They are open the rest of the year on a self-service basis.

The wiki entry:
High Huts of the White Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if one of these huts was part of Maura's plan? they would have been almost deserted in February, I would have thought.

And thinking outside the box a little:

Who's to say that when Maura called the condo place, she was really trying to rent a room.

I say, she could've been calling to get a feel for how many people were staying in that area at that time.


that is just IMO.

 

[scoops]

I was just browsing through the "Not without Peril" book and I didnt realise that there is a series of mountain huts actually located on various parts of the White Mountains. You can reserve overnight bunks there and from June to September they are staffed. They are open the rest of the year on a self-service basis.

The wiki entry:
High Huts of the White Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if one of these huts was part of Maura's plan? they would have been almost deserted in February, I would have thought.

And we definitely know 100 percent fact that Maura knew about those huts.

Once again, here is Maura in her own words at the age of 16.




Hi there,

My name is Maura Murray from Hanson MA and I've been going to
Jigger Johnson's campground, which is clearly the best, and hiking in
the White Mountains ever since I was too young to remember. I would
like to know if anyone out there has ever climbed Mt. Tripyramid (the
trail starts at Sabaday Falls) because I had quite an experience. I
also want to help out at the huts during the summer or manage trails
if there are any available jobs that someone knows about. Does anybody
have any bear or moose stories to tell because I would love to hear
them. Great website-bye

Maura at age 16

 

[Mr. Noatak]

I should have clarified.

Before the first-ever (Canine team) searched for Maura, they were estimating that the dog would give them about 100 yards worth of scent trace before the dog would lose the scent. And that is precisely what happened.

It wasn't a big revelation when the dog stopped searching at the intersection of Rt. 112 and Bradley Hill Rd. It was expected.

The intial dog search was On Feb 11, 2004 and was done by a police officer's K9.

On feb 19, 2004 a Belgian shepherd (Malinois) searched for Maura with no results

Most dog searches after that like the one in October of 2006 involved purely cadaver dogs.

My opinions only, no facts here:

What makes me sad (and I harped about this a few years ago on the Maura Murray threads) is that trained bloodhounds are readily available to officials throughout the country on an immediate basis. Four blocks from my house is a trained bloodhound, available for FREE to conduct searches. The investigators should have a list of ALL local bloodhounds available for use, either for a charge or for free. And they should use them immediately! I mean within a couple of hours. A bloodhound's nose is so good that their determinations are admissible in court.

 

[scoops]

My opinions only, no facts here:

What makes me sad (and I harped about this a few years ago on the Maura Murray threads) is that trained bloodhounds are readily available to officials throughout the country on an immediate basis. Four blocks from my house is a trained bloodhound, available for FREE to conduct searches. The investigators should have a list of ALL local bloodhounds available for use, either for a charge or for free. And they should use them immediately! I mean within a couple of hours. A bloodhound's nose is so good that their determinations are admissible in court.

It's possible that the K9 used on that Feb 11 search was a bloodhound.

I have no idea what type of dogs police utilized in new Hampshire at that time.

I believe they had different types of dogs for different types of tasks.

Most times I have seen a police K9 unit though, they are not blood hounds.

 

[Captain_Khan]

I was just browsing through the "Not without Peril" book and I didnt realise that there is a series of mountain huts actually located on various parts of the White Mountains. You can reserve overnight bunks there and from June to September they are staffed. They are open the rest of the year on a self-service basis.

The wiki entry:
High Huts of the White Mountains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder if one of these huts was part of Maura's plan? they would have been almost deserted in February, I would have thought.

Wow. That's really cool, and fits in really neatly with a theory I have. Will look into this further, thank you.