NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[leflautist]

Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can tell, no one knows WHAT she took with her from the car, because no one knows everything she took with her on the trip to begin with.

We know she bought alcohol because of the receipt, the video footage, the wine left in the car and the alcohol-smelling liquid found at the scene. We assume she took some of it with her when she left the scene, because it wasn't all found in the car, but that's an assumption. She could have given it to someone, or left some of it behind (excluding the wine) at some unknown stop, by accident or design, or she could have gotten disgusted with herself and thrown most of it out the window. Who knows?

For that matter, why are you saying she only took "the vodka," scoops? It wasn't the only missing alcohol.

The simplest explanation is that she had the alcohol with her in the car, and because it was gone, she took it with her when she left the scene (though it would have been a heavy and rattling load to carry in a backpack), but the fact is we don't actually know what she did with it.

The larger point is that I don't understand why people declare, "She ONLY took blah blah!" "She ONLY had clothes for blah days!" -- For all we know she had a handled shopping bag with recently purchased outfits and toiletries in it, which she took when she left. We would never know!

I understand she left behind a toothbrush and birth control pills and Tylenol PM etc., but we only know she left those things behind because she left those things behind.

To sum up: I think it's important to remember that we can only deduce what she MAY have taken from the scene. We do not KNOW what she actually took, because no one saw her pack her bag(s), no one saw her leave, and because she and her backpack (or any other bags or items she took with her) have never been found.

I agree with you there. People often say she was planning on coming back because she brought her textbooks with her, but she also left them at her car. I often think because she was a Nursing major and those books can be worth some money, maybe they were leverage to get money if she needed, also the same with the locket from BR. I think Maura knew how to pack clothing being from a hiking family, as far as the Family saying what clothing she might have taken, who really knows, I've worn clothes when seeing my parents when I was away at college and they said "where did you get that outfit"? Personally, unless you lived with her day in and day out 365 days a year you wouldn't know. People are thinking of her just having a black backpack, but she could have also had a duffel bag. As for the tylenol PM- she was an athlete, I imagine she had pain, I know that I did at that age for different reasons.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I think Maura knew how to pack clothing being from a hiking family, as far as the Family saying what clothing she might have taken, who really knows, I've worn clothes when seeing my parents when I was away at college and they said "where did you get that outfit"? Personally, unless you lived with her day in and day out 365 days a year you wouldn't know. People are thinking of her just having a black backpack, but she could have also had a duffel bag.

She could have also been counting on washing clothes at her destination. Virtually all condos and hotels I've stayed in while traveling had laundry facilities.

 

[Coffeelover]

I have two kids away at college. I haven't got a clue as to their wardrobe, accessories and various possessions. I might recognize items if they were shown to me but there's no way I could look at their closets and know what is missing. I just send money - they do their own shopping.

 

[BillNH]

I agree with you there. People often say she was planning on coming back because she brought her textbooks with her, but she also left them at her car. I often think because she was a Nursing major and those books can be worth some money, maybe they were leverage to get money if she needed, also the same with the locket from BR. I think Maura knew how to pack clothing being from a hiking family, as far as the Family saying what clothing she might have taken, who really knows, I've worn clothes when seeing my parents when I was away at college and they said "where did you get that outfit"? Personally, unless you lived with her day in and day out 365 days a year you wouldn't know. People are thinking of her just having a black backpack, but she could have also had a duffel bag. As for the tylenol PM- she was an athlete, I imagine she had pain, I know that I did at that age for different reasons.

BBM
My thought on the textbooks:
I believe the Saturn was not in as bad of shape as we have been led to believe, that she regularly used the Saturn to go to clinicals and that the textbooks were normally left in the Saturn rather than lug them around campus. Effectively removing any meaning behind them being in the Saturn on the night she disappeared.

 

[johnallore]

I have two kids away at college. I haven't got a clue as to their wardrobe, accessories and various possessions. I might recognize items if they were shown to me but there's no way I could look at their closets and know what is missing. I just send money - they do their own shopping.

This is an excellent point. In many cases (my sister, Theresa Allore included) there is so much speculation / misinformation over found / missing belongings, and their potential meaning. There is also blame to families (how could you not recognize your own child's clothing?!)

I have three daughters. We are extremely close. But ask me now what is in their closet, what do they own, what did they purchase / borrow from friends?... So I know one of them has a a t-shirt with Spock on it; that sticks out (I remember Theresa had a David Bowie t-shirt) But apart from things I might have bought them as a gift? I haven't a clue what is there's.

www.theresaallore.com

 

[graysmama]

I agree with the clothes. Even my 4 year old son where I buy most of his clothes has so many hand me downs from friends children plus clothes from grandparents and his aunts and uncles that being able to tell if something specifically is missing might be hard. All the generic long sleeve old navy tees he owns for instance.

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[danzn16]

I watched disappeared on Maura and her dad's heartache made me cry! I hope they find answers. I literally can't even begin to guess what could have happened to her


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[kwash]

So are the prevailing theories that:

1. Maura was escaping her life and that her accomplice was the red pick-up guy (see post #251 on this thread)? If that is the case the scenario described by the female witness who saw the pick-up stopped on the road (checking cell phone?), parked under the lights at the gas station (checking map? cell phone?), and departing toward the accident scene (received message from Maura to quickly pick her up!) could make sense if red pick-up guy was the accomplice. She didn’t plan to leave the things in her car behind, but the accident made that necessary since she had to clear out and hop in to the red pick-up before the police called by Atwood arrived. Is it possible even that when the red pick-up was stopped in the road it was because he was talking to Maura and that distraction caused her crash? He then told he was on his way, she said “hold up a guy in a school bus is stopping”, so he waited at the gas station until he had the green light to swoop in and get her?

OR

2. Maura wasn’t escaping her life, or was, but before she could she was happened upon by red pick-up guy who abducted and likely killed her?

Maura’s behavior on her last shift (as reported by her supervisor, see post #257 from this thread) would support her having been involved in the Vasi hit and run. I know some have said she shouldn’t have been able to be away from her desk/in her car/find somewhere to park her car/get back to work, but I think it is a definite possibility she was able to do all of those things and may have been on the phone with Billy when she hit Vasi or immediately following. I think she may have hit him and was legitimately upset and used the “my sister” as an excuse for why she was so upset.

 

[kwash]

Having said all that, post #264 is also a reasonable explantion for Maura's behaviour as reported by her supervisor.

I see now whay so many people are on the fence about this case! The circumstances "surronding" her disappearrance may be key or may be totally coincidental.

 

[bucshunter]

So are the prevailing theories that:

1. Maura was escaping her life and that her accomplice was the red pick-up guy (see post #251 on this thread)? If that is the case the scenario described by the female witness who saw the pick-up stopped on the road (checking cell phone?), parked under the lights at the gas station (checking map? cell phone?), and departing toward the accident scene (received message from Maura to quickly pick her up!) could make sense if red pick-up guy was the accomplice. She didn’t plan to leave the things in her car behind, but the accident made that necessary since she had to clear out and hop in to the red pick-up before the police called by Atwood arrived. Is it possible even that when the red pick-up was stopped in the road it was because he was talking to Maura and that distraction caused her crash? He then told he was on his way, she said “hold up a guy in a school bus is stopping”, so he waited at the gas station until he had the green light to swoop in and get her?

OR

2. Maura wasn’t escaping her life, or was, but before she could she was happened upon by red pick-up guy who abducted and likely killed her?

Maura’s behavior on her last shift (as reported by her supervisor, see post #257 from this thread) would support her having been involved in the Vasi hit and run. I know some have said she shouldn’t have been able to be away from her desk/in her car/find somewhere to park her car/get back to work, but I think it is a definite possibility she was able to do all of those things and may have been on the phone with Billy when she hit Vasi or immediately following. I think she may have hit him and was legitimately upset and used the “my sister” as an excuse for why she was so upset.

I'm in the camp of her running off up into the mountains and not surviving the elements.

 

[Coffeelover]

I'm also in the camp of her running into the mountains and not surviving the elements and her death being accidental. This is followed very closely by the suicide scenario.

 

[kwash]

Almost finished reading - and will go to other sites to read up - so this might make no sense, but...

If you are in the camp that Maura disappeared and Fred knows something, then it follows that they colluded, right? What reason could be big enough and supported by the "facts" surrounding her disappearance that would warrant them colluding for her to disappear?

Could Fred have been the one driving when Vasi was hit? Was he drunk? Did Maura have to help him out? Did they decide Maura would disappear so the blame would be put on her and not him? Was the accident on the Saturday night just a cover up to conceal the damage from the hit and run?

None of that makes sense, does it? Sigh.

 

[Tssiemer]

I never thought about Fred driving drunk. Doesn't seem likely though that she would go along with this for so long.


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[Lolacat]

Almost finished reading - and will go to other sites to read up - so this might make no sense, but...

If you are in the camp that Maura disappeared and Fred knows something, then it follows that they colluded, right? What reason could be big enough and supported by the "facts" surrounding her disappearance that would warrant them colluding for her to disappear?

Could Fred have been the one driving when Vasi was hit? Was he drunk? Did Maura have to help him out? Did they decide Maura would disappear so the blame would be put on her and not him? Was the accident on the Saturday night just a cover up to conceal the damage from the hit and run?

None of that makes sense, does it? Sigh.

Not necessarily. My 2 cents is that the key to finding Maura is to be found in the week prior to her disappearance. Something happened, and it was something significant and big that we dont yet know about. I personally believe that Fred has an idea or an inkling of what that *secret* might be, but I genuinely dont think he knows where Maura is now.

Fred is holding something back- for whatever reason, be it potentially noble or suspicious reasons, he simply does not want to talk about it. Hence, his insistence that the days before her appearance "do not matter".

I used to think Maura had been abducted and murdered. However, having spent time here and on JR's blog, I now believe that Maura either:

1. Went up to the mountains to commit suicide, OR
2. To run away from her life and has started a new life elsewhere.

Either way, she was running away. From what? I wish I knew

 

[kwash]

Was the $4000 shared between Maura's two friends for their part in the story? Would you go along with something this big, if you thought it was the right thing to do?

Or - thinking of Fred's comments immediately after she 'disappeared', do you think it is possible that Maura contacted her Dad on Friday to tell him something was gravely wrong and she needed to get away for a bit. She wouldn't tell him what though. He comes up on Saturday to help her out, brings money for her, tried to get her to open up to him. They concoct the story about him being there to help her get a car. Saturday night she decides she has to confide in him and in Billy so she drives to Dad's hotel, unloads and it is awful. Her plan to get away from it all for a while goes off the rails with the second (third?) accident and she disappears. Dad knows what precipitated this, but it is too awful to make public.

Still doesn't tell us what happened to Maura, but might explain some of the events surrounding her disappearance.

 

[kwash]

Went back to the first thread and accounts at the time seem credible that she was not driving her car around campus befiore her Dad came up to help buy another one. It sounds like it had been sitting idle since it was towed from a grocery store/near a grocery store that she broke down at.

Maybe the $4000 was used to fix the car so that she could get away for a while/permanently? There was a call to an auto-repair shop. Maybe they had it fixed and off she went (until the accident)? You would think the auto-repair person would come forward though...

 

[Ricochet]

I'll add some to this since I've taken a tylenol overdose.

It is not quite as dangerous as it sounds. The tylenol part is not that great, but an OTC sleeping pill mixed with alcohol will not kill you. Trust me I did this for years.

Tylenol or any medication containing acetaminophen can be lethal when taken in large doses. Alcohol will intensify the toxicity but it's more dangerous to people who are chronic drinkers rather than someone who chose to get drunk for the sole purpose of taking an overdose. If you take a bottle of Tylenol and can make it past first 72 hours it will kill you. You'll have passed the point of no return. At that point the damage to the liver caused by the acetaminophen overdose can't be reversed. I made it to about 15 hours before the stomach pains got so bad and I finally had to go to the hospital. I was in the intensive care unit and they thought they had my liver enzymes under control and then they started to spike and had to transfer me to another hospital because they thought I was going to have liver failure. They draw blood about every 2 hours to monitor the liver enzymes. When I finally left the hospital my forearms were black and blue from all the blood draws. I just remember being really tired and my time frame of events was off. The pastor of my church was at the hospital and he gave me last rights, because they didn't know if my liver enzymes would go back down. If you can get to the hospital within that 72 hour window there's an antidote (given by IV) they give you to counteract the acetaminophen. I'm not sure how long a person would survive past the 72 hours. Eventually my liver enzymes started to comedown and I was discharged. Acetaminophen overdoses though are taken very seriously.

I've never heard of anyone taking a benedryl overdose, and I highly doubt anything would happen except clear up your sinuses and make you tired.

Even overdosing on prescription medications is difficult because their much safer today. Things like Seconal have been replaced by safer drugs.

I personally believe that Maura died from the elements and it was accidental and not deliberate. It would take a lot of willpower to deliberately die from hypothermia. If she really wanted to die there'd be quicker and easier ways to get the job done. A person may want to die, but the brain/body are programmed to want to live.

 

[teeandcee]

What about the notion that she may have been pregnant? Do you folks think she could have been on her way to get an abortion?

I've been following this case somewhat, and I've wondered about this. I wonder if:

1. Maura was pregnant and FM wanted her to abort hence FM's trip, all the chaos, and $$. How much would an abortion cost back then? I'm clueless.

2. Maura didn't want to abort but FM was pressuring her, hence her sudden decision to visit him at 2 a.m. to confront him that she was keeping it.

3. Continued pressure from FM and arguing. Maybe Maura simply couldn't stand up to her dad so she decided to run away.

4. Her drinking while possibly pregnant doesn't concern me as I don't see it as out of the realm of possibility. If she was incredibly stressed, standing up to her father for possibly the first time ever, and had few coping skills she could easily turn to alcohol even if pregnant.

5. If FM feels a lot of guilt about possibly pressuring her and "driving" her to suicide or to run off where something horrible happened to her it would explain his odd behavior and lying. That's a heck of a burden for a parent to carry around.

 

[GodsRevolver]

Bump this

 

[njen412]

I've been following this case somewhat, and I've wondered about this. I wonder if:

1. Maura was pregnant and FM wanted her to abort hence FM's trip, all the chaos, and $$. How much would an abortion cost back then? I'm clueless.

2. Maura didn't want to abort but FM was pressuring her, hence her sudden decision to visit him at 2 a.m. to confront him that she was keeping it.

3. Continued pressure from FM and arguing. Maybe Maura simply couldn't stand up to her dad so she decided to run away.

4. Her drinking while possibly pregnant doesn't concern me as I don't see it as out of the realm of possibility. If she was incredibly stressed, standing up to her father for possibly the first time ever, and had few coping skills she could easily turn to alcohol even if pregnant.

5. If FM feels a lot of guilt about possibly pressuring her and "driving" her to suicide or to run off where something horrible happened to her it would explain his odd behavior and lying. That's a heck of a burden for a parent to carry around.

Just in response to the abortion cost query: the winter of my senior year of high school (coincidentally winter 2004), i accompanied my best friend to an abortion clinic. We lived just outside of Boston but traveled to a clinic in Concord, NH, for reasons I'm no longer entirely sure of (perhaps fear of running into someone she knew?). She paid out of pocket for the procedure, and to do so she returned most of the gifts she had recently received for Christmas. I want to say it cost roughly $500. Not a pleasant memory to be sure.

I post this not just to estimate the cost, but because in an earlier post someone questioned why, if MM were up in NH to get an abortion, she would need to travel so far as surely there were clinics closer to Amherst to be found.

That being said, I do not believe MM was up there for the purpose of having an abortion. I'm firmly of the opinion that she either committed suicide or was simply trying to get away from the pressures of her life for a few days and succumbed to the elements while running away from her second car accident in as many days. I'm close to MM in age and I can tell you that the thought of even one (likely alcohol-related) car accident would have me rattled. Two would test my rationality. Alone on a country road, at night, in near-freezing temperature, having had a few drinks and possibly in an utter panic... all seems like a recipe for disaster to me. The more I think about it, the more I just see an already stressed out girl, looking to get away from her problems for however long, thrown this random stressor (car crash, likely due to drunk driving, at a time when she was supposed to be staying out of trouble in order to avoid being charged with fraud) and it just says to me: blind panic made more irrational due to alcohol. She thinks: I need to get out of here. Possibly a common coping mechanism for her as I think it was also her reason for being on that road in the first place. Not suicide, just the desire to get out of Dodge until the atmosphere had cooled and she had regained her composure/felt up to dealing with it (whatever 'it' was specifically.) Just the sort of mentality that says: "I cannot deal with this right now, I will figure it out later." Literally running away from problems. So this accident happens and it makes a bad situation so much worse. She thinks she'll dispose of whatever evidence she reasonably can to lessen the damage, and so grabs the undamaged alcohol and whatever else and just takes off. She's a runner. This type of rural setting is not completely unfamiliar to her. It doesn't feel unbearably cold in that moment: slightly above freezing, alcohol in system, adrenaline pumping. She thinks she will run until she is a reasonable enough distance from the accident to not be picked up. Thinks she will dispose of the alcohol along the way, and then find some place to sober up until morning. She'll deal with this whole situation then, she just cannot deal with it now. She takes off running and eventually exhaustion sets in, either followed by or in conjunction with hypothermia. She thinks she'll just find a place to rest for a bit, sits down, and never gets up. Who knows how far down that road she might have traveled and then how deeply into the woods in her likely confusion.

I have no proof of any of this, but it's always been my best guess. People downplay the fraud charges and car accidents, always insist that it MUST be something more that would lead her to want to run away, but to me they seem hugely stressful. I could definitely understand being completely overwhelmed and feeling like I just needed a few days, away from that environment, to think and attempt to figure out how to get back on track.

Sorry, this post kind of snowballed.