NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[dogperson]

If it were my drunk mind I probably would have stretched out on the warm hood of the car and laughed about the fine mess I've gotten myself into over the past few days until the cops showed up to haul me away.
In all seriousness though, it seems that she had to been much less under the influence than what we are thinking or highly motivated to get the hell out of there. What could have motivated her to that extent? Probably something we could not even begin to imagine. The puzzle pieces we have do not fit. If LE and all the other great minds have failed thus far to draw a conclusion, I have to think that much of what we know is unrelated to her disappearance or at best marginally or tangentially connected. If or when the truth is known, it will be a jaw-dropping experience for all who have been following. JMO of course.

I agree, some part of the puzzle is missing, and it's the piece we need. It still may not explain what finally happened to Maura but it would explain all the other weird aspects of the case including why she was taking off.

 

[Lolacat]

I agree, some part of the puzzle is missing, and it's the piece we need. It still may not explain what finally happened to Maura but it would explain all the other weird aspects of the case including why she was taking off.

Yep, and I would bet money on it happening in the few days before she disappeared. How coincidental that those few days are the very ones that noone close to Maura seems to want to talk about! Something happened then, and its why none of our pieces fit.

 

[lawstudent]

I know this has been touched on at some point, but the have the police expressed their beliefs to whether she is alive or dead?

I know 2004 was a bit early for technology as we think of it now, but I would imagine the police have access to her online activities and things of that nature that would clue them in to some extent on whatever was "missing." Sometimes in cases like this, the police will express a belief the person is no longer or alive without giving details, so people are aware they are not urgently looking for a missing person and are now instead trying to get to the bottom of what happened.

It's possible there was just no clear clues left behind, or that the police are just really unsure or don't want to rock the boat. But I'm wondering if the police have more of an idea either way - I'm guessing if they have an idea, it isn't that she is alive, because they'd probably have found her.

Whatever was going on, if it resulted in suicide, knowing the details still wouldn't necessarily help it all add up. Things that may have made her totally desperate and hopeless may not logically fit together from the perspective of the general public - it doesn't have to be this unbelievably dark secret or one big thing that set her off. And it still doesn't explain where her body is now.

If the details suggested she may have gone elsewhere as a result of some shocking secret the family knew about, I feel like that would have surfaced by now, despite their efforts.

 

[scoops]

I know this has been touched on at some point, but the have the police expressed their beliefs to whether she is alive or dead?

I know 2004 was a bit early for technology as we think of it now, but I would imagine the police have access to her online activities and things of that nature that would clue them in to some extent on whatever was "missing." Sometimes in cases like this, the police will express a belief the person is no longer or alive without giving details, so people are aware they are not urgently looking for a missing person and are now instead trying to get to the bottom of what happened.

It's possible there was just no clear clues left behind, or that the police are just really unsure or don't want to rock the boat. But I'm wondering if the police have more of an idea either way - I'm guessing if they have an idea, it isn't that she is alive, because they'd probably have found her.

Whatever was going on, if it resulted in suicide, knowing the details still wouldn't necessarily help it all add up. Things that may have made her totally desperate and hopeless may not logically fit together from the perspective of the general public - it doesn't have to be this unbelievably dark secret or one big thing that set her off. And it still doesn't explain where her body is now.

If the details suggested she may have gone elsewhere as a result of some shocking secret the family knew about, I feel like that would have surfaced by now, despite their efforts.

Yes finally in 2012, eight years after Maura went missing, the lead investigator in her disappearance has stated publically that he believes she is no longer alive.

He also IMO, took a shot at the very same family that criticized him for bringing up the thought of suicide (early on) by stating this in an interview with James Renner.

"I take into consideration the family's thought that she was coming up to kill herself. But what was the initial catalyst to make her want to do that? And what happened when she got here? My sense is that she is not still alive." ---- Retired Lt. John Scarinza


If he would've just said he thought she took her own life and that she was no longer alive, he would've faced more backlash from family. By bringing up suicide in the way he did when talking to James, he shifts the blame for that over to the family.

I wish James would've tracked him down one more time, because the sense I got from that interview was that he was pretty willing to talk and go against normal police protocol when dealing with a sensitive case.
We may have gotten a whole lot more from him and he also would be in a position to clear up some common confused issues about the case.

 

[Fireweed]

I think many of the PIs and LEs in the "she is dead" camp get a lot of their information from the family about Maura that may or may not be all that accurate.

I dunno, I always sort of felt that the drive to succeed came more from Fred than from Maura. What I mean is that Maura may not have been as disappointed in herself as her father was.

 

[scoops]

I think many of the PIs and LEs in the "she is dead" camp get a lot of their information from the family about Maura that may or may not be all that accurate.

I dunno, I always sort of felt that the drive to succeed came more from Fred than from Maura. What I mean is that Maura may not have been as disappointed in herself as her father was.

I have to disagree.

From very early on, police developed a mis-trust of the family.

It would be very un-wise (and in my opinion not very practical) for them to hang on every word the family told them as gospel.

Police had Maura's computer before family did (as just one example of them gathering info not directly out of a family member's mouth).

I would bet my last Oreo cookie that police found out things on that computer that they have never talked about publically to this day.

 

[jaleach123]

If it were my drunk mind I probably would have stretched out on the warm hood of the car and laughed about the fine mess I've gotten myself into over the past few days until the cops showed up to haul me away.
In all seriousness though, it seems that she had to been much less under the influence than what we are thinking or highly motivated to get the hell out of there. What could have motivated her to that extent? Probably something we could not even begin to imagine. The puzzle pieces we have do not fit. If LE and all the other great minds have failed thus far to draw a conclusion, I have to think that much of what we know is unrelated to her disappearance or at best marginally or tangentially connected. If or when the truth is known, it will be a jaw-dropping experience for all who have been following. JMO of course.

This X1000.

I've been saying this for years about the JonBenet Ramsey case. A lot of things we assume are important there originated as part of the media assault over the years. Something gets brought up and then through presto-chango and years of repetition suddenly becomes canonical evidence cited by everyone reading about the case.

As for Maura, look at what we all originally read about the case and then compare it to the stuff Renner dug up. When I came into this case there was no mention whatsoever of Maura's criminal activity, but a lot was made of a mysterious phone call (which turned out to be a big nothingburger). Maura's criminal activities coupled with the car accidents (and concomitant alcohol use) provides a far better picture of a seemingly troubled young woman than almost anything I read about when I first tuned into this case.

I'm glad the poster brought this up. I think this needs to be said about almost any well-known cold case. What we think we know and what actually happened can be, and often is, separated by a chasms.

 

[justagirl247]

Just a random thought and I'm not sure if this has been addressed and from what I have read there is no hard proof to support this idea but is it possible there was drug use??? I only ask bc she seems like she was so put together and responsible and then just all of a sudden things start spiraling ... I have seen it before in ppl I grew up with and other then the going missing part it sounds very similar to things that went on with some of my old friends... What if she went there to try to detox or something she was a nursing student she would at least semi have knowledge of how it goes...... May also explain why her family may not have wanted this to get out bc they may have felt if ppl found out the search wouldn't have been taken so seriously??? Just a thought

 

[Tssiemer]

To me, pregnancy makes more sense than drugs. With her type A personality and type A family, a pregnancy would ruin her whole life and perfect family illusion.

 

[lawstudent]

The rehab or just going away on her own to detox idea is interesting because it would fit with her family emergency claim and all that. A planned but secret temporary disappearance, combined with the alcohol. But it still doesn't explain what happened after. Drug/alcohol abuse makes more sense to me with a Type A personality - trying to keep going, and feeling that there is no solution. Terminating a pregnancy is obviously not an easy thing, but it's much easier to secretly and quickly take care of than a drug addiction.

 

[scoops]

The rehab or just going away on her own to detox idea is interesting because it would fit with her family emergency claim and all that. A planned but secret temporary disappearance, combined with the alcohol. But it still doesn't explain what happened after. Drug/alcohol abuse makes more sense to me with a Type A personality - trying to keep going, and feeling that there is no solution. Terminating a pregnancy is obviously not an easy thing, but it's much easier to secretly and quickly take care of than a drug addiction.

I've personally never bought into a pregnancy theory (she was in a maternity class, which to me better explains what was found on her computer as far as searches go).

And there isn't enough out there for me to try to link her to a drug problem.

She did bring Tylenol PM with her.

By itself, that doesn't really say much of anything, but add in all that alcohol to a smart person who would know how dangerous mixing those two things together would be, it doesn't create a profile of someone just looking to get away for a break or a mini-vacation. To me that points to a self-destructive person (at the time) she went missing.

 

[justagirl247]

I agree there is no proof there was drug use... But there is no proof as to any One thing at all I don't fully buy the suicide theory but it's possible... As is pregnancy and drug use and a million other things ... Sadly I just don't know with the info we have that any one theory can outweigh any other ... I hope answers come I truly do... hopefully one day we will all know ... But in the meantime I think every theory is good in the sense that as long as we are all discussing theories her case is still relevant and keeping it relevant ups the chances of new info jmo tho

 

[justagirl247]

Side note.... Another thought I had is that rehab or something similar could explain the money her father withdrew from the ATMs that has never been explained ... Paying cash would keep it from getting ins involved and keeping it a secret ... As much as Hippa would like us to believe all our medical history is protected trust and believe if someone truly wanted to access it it's not that hard ... Again I don't want to try to slander Maura's reputation I'm just throwing ideas out by all accounts I don't think she was a junkie or a bad person just a possible mistake she could have been wanting to correct

 

[Fireweed]

I've personally never bought into a pregnancy theory (she was in a maternity class, which to me better explains what was found on her computer as far as searches go).

And there isn't enough out there for me to try to link her to a drug problem.

She did bring Tylenol PM with her.

By itself, that doesn't really say much of anything, but add in all that alcohol to a smart person who would know how dangerous mixing those two things together would be, it doesn't create a profile of someone just looking to get away for a break or a mini-vacation. To me that points to a self-destructive person (at the time) she went missing.

Just as a counterpoint, when I used to drink, I almost always took sleeping pills too. Drinkers wake up a lot in the night full of guilt and remorse. A lot of drinkers already have sleeping issues to begin with. It is not quite as dangerous as it sounds. The tylenol part is not that great, but an OTC sleeping pill mixed with alcohol will not kill you. Trust me I did this for years.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

Just as a counterpoint, when I used to drink, I almost always took sleeping pills too. Drinkers wake up a lot in the night full of guilt and remorse. A lot of drinkers already have sleeping issues to begin with. It is not quite as dangerous as it sounds. The tylenol part is not that great, but an OTC sleeping pill mixed with alcohol will not kill you.

Exactly. This is far from a lethal combination. Diphenhydramine is other ingredient in Tylenol PM -- the "PM" part -- and it's just an antihistamine, the over-the-counter allergy medicine commonly called Benadryl. They use it because of its soporific side effects combined with its safety and non-addictiveness.

 

[scoops]

Exactly. This is far from a lethal combination. Diphenhydramine is other ingredient in Tylenol PM -- the "PM" part -- and it's just an antihistamine, the over-the-counter allergy medicine commonly called Benadryl. They use it because of its soporific side effects combined with its safety and non-addictiveness.

A few things specifically caught my attention concerning the Tylenol PM.

First thing, was that family has rarely ever addressed the fact that Maura packed that (but they sure have spent a lot of time mentioning Maura packing her school books).

Their spokespeople's explanation for why Maura had the Tylenol PM, doesn't add up to me. She was supposedly taking it because of a nagging hamstring issue from track (although, she had been out of track for over a year).


Taking OTC drugs and mixing it with alcohol is in fact the No. 2 most popular method of committing suicide, just behind gun shots.

Taking Tylenol PM and mixing it with alcohol is very destructive to one's liver (which I would think Maura would know and would want to prevent if she was happy go lucky as some paint her to be)

Taking Tylenol PM and mixing it with alcohol before bedtime is probably not lead to death by any means, but taking that combination as you are all by yourself in the mountains, I would think would just increase your chances substantially of not being able to survive things such as nasty weather (which IMO, may have been her plan all along).

 

[lawstudent]

Tylenol PM is acetaminophen + benadryl.

Sleep drugs + alcohol are dangerous because they can suppress breathing when mixed in large doses. Benadryl makes you sleepy, but it's not a 'sleep drug' and not a big risk with alcohol - might make you drowsier, but you would likely have to have other prescription sedatives in your system as well for it to become lethal. OTC sleep stuff is rarely that strong.

Acetaminophen is bad for your liver in large doses, as is alcohol, and the combination can be dangerous even if you only take a normal tylenol dose with several drinks. People make this mistake a lot in college, and usually will be okay but have to be hospitalized for liver damage. People who try to commit suicide by taking huge amounts of tylenol, with alcohol or without, have a fairly decent chance at succeeding, but it is a slow and painful death. They end up at the hospital, but it may be too late to stop the damage. It would be a horrible way to plan a suicide. Not everyone realizes that though, so some people do use that method.

 

[BillNH]

Hj

Tylenol PM is acetaminophen + benadryl.

Sleep drugs + alcohol are dangerous because they can suppress breathing when mixed in large doses. Benadryl makes you sleepy, but it's not a 'sleep drug' and not a big risk with alcohol - might make you drowsier, but you would likely have to have other prescription sedatives in your system as well for it to become lethal. OTC sleep stuff is rarely that strong.

Acetaminophen is bad for your liver in large doses, as is alcohol, and the combination can be dangerous even if you only take a normal tylenol dose with several drinks. People make this mistake a lot in college, and usually will be okay but have to be hospitalized for liver damage. People who try to commit suicide by taking huge amounts of tylenol, with alcohol or without, have a fairly decent chance at succeeding, but it is a slow and painful death. They end up at the hospital, but it may be too late to stop the damage. It would be a horrible way to plan a suicide. Not everyone realizes that though, so some people do use that method.

I am not buying into the suicide theory, but this method has merit. If it's effective, and you are somewhat passive in your own demise, it's possible she did it this way.

Wander into the mountains, miles away from the nearest person and medical care to be certain a Good Samaritan will not save you. Eat a ton of Tylenol and drink your favorite alcoholic beverage to numb the pain while the Tylenol kills you. Once you ingest the pills, you are too far away from anything even if you have second thoughts. Most people may not choose this method because it's not quick, but it would certainly fit this scenario in particular.

 

[Aynia]

Just as a counterpoint, when I used to drink, I almost always took sleeping pills too. Drinkers wake up a lot in the night full of guilt and remorse. A lot of drinkers already have sleeping issues to begin with. It is not quite as dangerous as it sounds. The tylenol part is not that great, but an OTC sleeping pill mixed with alcohol will not kill you. Trust me I did this for years.

I totally agree with you, having the same kind of experience you had. Even prescription sleep medication that strictly warns you not to mix with alcohol, probably it won't kill you. I mixed a lot of the two and never had a episode of having to go to the hospital because of that. Just very bad drunken falls that caused some injuries while trying to reach the bed and passing out.
Anyway I don't think an OD of tylenol and alcohol would cause death. And she was a nurse student so she probably had stronger medication that she could have access to. IMO tylenol would work on the morning headache that you have when you're a drinker.
I think if her intention was to commit suicide, exposure to the elements would be a part of the plan. That with drinking and tylenol makes sense to me, just alcohol and tylenol it doesn't. But that's just MOO.

 

[lawstudent]

Anyway I don't think an OD of tylenol and alcohol would cause death. And she was a nurse student so she probably had stronger medication that she could have access to. IMO tylenol would work on the morning headache that you have when you're a drinker.

Tylenol itself can cause death - it's very toxic in large doses. It sends you into liver failure, which is a slow, painful, but certain death. I think that's how the anthrax killer killed himself. It would never be the way I would choose to do it if I could find any other sorts of meds, but a lot of people survive pill/alcohol ODs because the body will recognize the issue and the person will vomit and eventually regain consciousness. The tylenol works a lot slower and cumulatively, so if someone takes a whole bottle, they can quickly be beyond saving even when they are hospitalized.