NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[leflautist]

Leflautist, I think that's a really interesting theory and one I had never considered before. Are there any health clinics in the area she was headed to? It seems to me like the logical decision (if she intended on seeking treatment for some sort of mental health issue) would be to stay in Massachusetts- it's where she was from, and I can't imagine there are many inpatient mental health facilities in the White Mountains area. My second issue is if she was en-route to a treatment center or hospital of some sort, she was already making a decision that is extremely difficult to make- admitting that whatever issue you have has become unable to control, and you need to seek help. Since she'd already made that decision by leaving, why wouldn't she wait at the crash scene and tell the police where she was going? They wouldn't be able to tell her family members where she really was if she didn't give consent for them to contact them, and if she was suicidal or in danger of harming herself, they have a legal obligation to treat her. Under those circumstances, I cannot imagine a police officer would be concerned about a DUI, they'd be worried about her welfare. That being said, if she was under extreme mental stress, she probably wasn't thinking rationally, especially if she was intoxicated.

That all hinges on her making the decision to check into treatment on her own- if FM made the decision for her (hence, giving her the 4000 dollars) why wouldn't he drive her there himself?

Well there is one in Conway, which is RT 112 leads into. She would have been on 112 then go to RT 16 then onto Main St. Personally the letter/email she left points to a serious dilemma she was facing. She was drinking, but I get the feeling maybe FM was conflicted about her standing at that point, or maybe that week he was so busy he couldn't take her. I do feel that FM would have wanted the best for his daughter. All dads usually do, no matter how perfectionist they may seem (i'm the daughter of a perfectionist dad too ) . The letter/email, everything being packed (FM could have said when you come back we will get you back home), the email to work superiors, the inlaws not knowing what was going on (maybe she didn't want to ruin her chances at marrying BR), I'm thinking that the accident put her in a bad spot mentally. I'm just saying that this could have been the plan, its not her disappearing for good but it was her solution for her problems.

As far as after the wreck, I have a difficult time discounting the guy, Mr F's sight of someone who looked like her running.

 

[BillNH]

The rag in the tailpipe could have been placed there in response to Fred's advice. If the car was spitting black smoke it would be much less noticeable if that smoke was spilling out of other leaks in the exhaust system under the car instead if in one directed stream out the back. I can believe this, as ridiculous as it seems, especially if Fred was aware of a Maura having a habit of drinking and driving. If the smoke is coming out in several spots it would be less noticeable and police would not have that as a reason to pull her over. However, it would only work if there were other leaks in the exhaust and it is severely dangerous if there were, since the tail pipe is there for the purpose of moving exhaust safely away from the passenger compartment of the vehicle. As a suicide attempt, it would only be successful if there were leaks in the system and the pipe was plugged up tight on the end and the car not moving/no wind or in an enclosed area. As a tactic to stall the vehicle, it would only be successful if there were NO leaks in the rest of the system, which seems very unlikely in an 8 year old, beat up Saturn. I also recall that the rag was "clean". If it were clean it was probably not in there very long or there were a lot of leaks in the rest of the system. All that being said, Fred's bizarre advice seems to be the most plausible, although misguided, IMO.

 

[stephsb]

Personally the letter/email she left points to a serious dilemma she was facing.

are you referring to the email she sent BR prior to leaving (where she said she didn't much feel like talking but she loved him more, etc) or the one she allegedly left on top of packed boxes that police noticed when the entered her dorm (the old printed email from BR where he allegedly admits he was being unfaithful to her) both of them point to some kind of dilemma going on in her life, but it's still hard to believe she didn't intend on someone else going into her dorm room w.o her being around. i know some people don't put a lot of weight in the email, since SR has denied it was a note from MM but just an old email, and since people still dispute if the room was packed or not, but i really think that email was meant to send a message. even if it was just an old email that happened to be placed on top of everything else she had packed when she was emptying her desk or something, it doesn't explain why LE (Scarinza i think, but I could be wrong) told a reporter that there was a note from MM to BR, on top of all her packed things, w. nothing else on the walls or in drawers. when he described the note, he initially got it wrong (it wasn't a note from MM to BR, but an email from BR to MM) and it was later correctly described by either himself or someone else in LE. If MM was simply going off to get her mental health in order, which would be completely understandable, she'd likely be the one to move her stuff out of her dorm (if she was going to leave school for a semester or something) or it would have been FM. If she had intended on returning, what would be the point of leaving the email out- so she could come back from a clinic to remind herself that BR cheated on her? Doesn't seem likely. I think there were things going on with her relationship with BR that would lead one to assume it wasn't as wonderful as SR would like everyone to believe. She's almost as bad as FM when it comes to just dismissing evidence as unimportant because it doesn't fit w. the story she's going with.

also, i disagree that it was the accident that put her in a bad spot mentally. the breakdown she had at work happened prior to the accident in FM's car. i think something was going on before the accident, there had to be a reason she'd drive to her dad's hotel in his car at 330AM after he knew she had been drinking. BR allegedly said she so upset he couldn't understand her on the phone, but said it was due to the accident. FM has also said she was "whimpering" and very upset about the accident, but i think we've discussed his credibility issues plenty of times. i think there was definitely something going on prior to the accident, but the accident was the catalyst to her leaving.

as for the witness who supposedly saw her running, i think it could very likely be credible due to the timing, the running, and her location, but he reported the sighting days after she had gone missing, so he had already seen her all over the media, it was dark, and he had never seen or met her prior to his sighting, which makes his identification very unreliable. the only reason i think it can be considered credible is because it was night in a rural area, in winter, so seeing a girl running by herself was probably not a normal occurrence.

BillNH thanks for the great explanation on the rag in the tail pipe...i had forgotten about the clean detail. when you say it probably wasn't in there long, are you saying she probably didn't leave Amherst with it in..or just that it being clean would support the other leaks theory, making FM's advice correct?

 

[leflautist]

@stephsb -
I was referring to the email left on top of the boxes "allegedly" but even the email sent to BR makes me think her mindset was one of confusion. Is SR that you mentioned BR's mother?
I didn't mean to indicate that the accident was the only thing that put her in a bad place mentally- everything was piling up on her and it seems like the 2 accidents were the final block that made everything crumble.

As far as the LP 's error- you know how when responding to an email it shows the original message? Back then I believe the police could have mistaken it. I find it hard to believe that MM didn't respond to the original email with him confessing. I know its a long shot, but it could be that she wrote him back something that she might have wanted to let her dad know or so she wouldn't forget-

FM seems to me like he wanted everything to work out for his daughter but also to protect her. How he says everything before Haverhill doesn't matter has always seemed weird to me.

That email/letter is a weird thing- I could see it as leaving for someone else to find such as FM or her sisters- perhaps she hadn't been able to tell them that everything was not perfect in the relationship. The other part is if she did plan her disappearance it could be a final flip off to BR for cheating. It's truly hard to tell if she is the type of person that would do that because I don't know her personally. I feel like the reason she was always drinking was due to mental issues and the added stress of everything.

 

[BillNH]

I believe the clean rag supports Fred giving her the advice. I did not mention where she may have put it in there but I think if she knew she was taking a long trip and was going to be drinking on the way, it would likely have been put in there at the outset. IMO it could also mean it was put in at the scene to indicate a disabled vehicle. The officer says it was shoved way up in there so it could be more bad advice from Fred. It was way in there but yet the officer saw it, so I am inferring that some of it was hanging out. It's a baffling detail, that's hard to pin to one solid theory. I absolutely rule out that it was used to disable the vehicle.

 

[Coffeelover]

I've been following this case for years and I didn't know that the rag was considered clean. I had thought that she got it out of the trunk to try to mop up the spilled wine and then shoved it up the exhaust to try to hide the evidence. In that scenario it likely wouldn't have been considered 'clean.'

At this point I've gone back and forth on the suicide vs. short break/dying of exposure theories and still think it could be either or. But the bottom line to me is that I don't think she got that far and I would love to know precisely which areas have been thoroughly searched, especially off the side roads like Bradley Hill and the small roads off of it.

 

[scoops]

IMO,

What Fred told investigators about the rag in the tailpipe was just more spin.

By the time the rag in the tailpipe was addressed, Fred had already done a complete 180, going from forewarning investigators (before he even made it to the scene of the accident) that his daughter had come to that area to do harm to herself - to (along with family members) going on the record and stating how dare police even bring up the notion that Maura may have been suicidal.

Fred and family members were not trusted right away from law enforcement (based on accounts from family members themselves), which quickly led to investigators not keeping the family fully in the loop of the investigation

And defensively, Fred and family were left to explain why the dorm room was left the way it was and why the rag was found in the tailpipe) and because family was pushing this abduction theory all of a sudden, both of the explanations for the dorm room and rag in the tailpipe were defensively made while also at the same time making little sense to anyone. (IMO, because they were pulled from the wazoo).


but family had to explain away the dorm room/rag in the tailpipe because each incident tied in real nicely with fred's initial thought that his daughter may have fled to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself.

So I doubt there was ever a road-side emergency kit (that fred had supposedly made for Maura).

The rag in the tailpipe was not (IMO) a means to cover up smoke and never was about that to begin with.

The lead investigator in her disappearance has brought up the notion that it was a possible suicide attempt and he would've had first-hand to second-hand information, to even possibly seeing the rag in the tailpipe himself.

 

[stephsb]

@leftlautist

yeah SR is Sharon Rauch, Billy's mom. agreed about the accidents being the the final straw w. everything else that was piling up on her. I don't think we'll ever know really what was the cause of all her stress unless her family decides to be more forthcoming, which i don't believe will happen anytime soon. I am, however, convinced FM knows (or has an idea) about what was bothering her prior to her disappearance. As for the drinking due to mental stress, I definitely feel the same way...i know people have disputed the amount of alcohol/kinds of alcohol she brought along, and I agree that that alcohol alone might not stand out (especially because I lived the first 18 years of my life in WI, where a good amount of the population finds any excuse to drink) but what did stand out for me was the putting it in the soda can and drinking WHILE she was driving ALONE. I can unfortunately understand people passing around a bottle and the driver having a drink out of it on the way to a party, game, vacation, or whatever. I cannot understand someone drinking alone in the middle of nowhere, when they are on probation for credit card fraud, after just having crashed their father's car a few days prior. If she was drinking, she had a significant alcohol problem, or was on the way to developing one...or she just didn't care anymore.

@scoops

i feel like when i first started looking at this case, i saw somewhere a missing poster, or alert that had gone out to the meeting (may it was a LE press conference or briefing of some sort?) that had MM listed as possibly suicidal. Do you know if that existed or if that was LE's initial belief? Regardless, I absolutely agree that the family went from being concerned and frantic to defensive, and their stories simply didn't make sense. specifically, FM insisting that whatever she was doing prior to her crash in Haverhill "doesn't matter" shows he is in complete denial. If we knew where MM was headed for sure, what happened prior to her disappearance may matter...but w.o that, all we have to go on is what happened prior to her disappearance...because that is what will tell us why she was in Haverhill in the first place. agree with @coffeelover that she probably didn't make it too far (but i doubt we'll ever get the specific search areas)

 

[Lolacat]

stephsb- ITA with you about the alcohol. I went to university in England. If you have seen programmes on the behaviour of young Brits abroad you'd know we are the masters of binge drinking- my university experience took place in a sea of alcohol. What I saw were crazy and potentially dangerous levels of drinking. That said, NONE of my peers or myself ever drank alcohol whilst driving. We all knew that was crossing a very serious line and could endanger other people's lives. Not to mention it being illegal and if caught, could ruin your career (which is, after all, the entire point of being at uni in the first place). Striving to be a straight A student is utterly pointless if you end up being chucked out of college for drinking misdemeanors. I have no issue with Maura drinking a lot of alcohol at uni. What I DO think is significant is the fact that she had TWO car accidents whilst drinking in the space of two days. THAT indicates to me, a serious issue with alcohol which may be indicative of some severe emotional disturbance.

 

[leflautist]

stephsb- ITA with you about the alcohol. I went to university in England. If you have seen programmes on the behaviour of young Brits abroad you'd know we are the masters of binge drinking- my university experience took place in a sea of alcohol. What I saw were crazy and potentially dangerous levels of drinking. That said, NONE of my peers or myself ever drank alcohol whilst driving. We all knew that was crossing a very serious line and could endanger other people's lives. Not to mention it being illegal and if caught, could ruin your career (which is, after all, the entire point of being at uni in the first place). Striving to be a straight A student is utterly pointless if you end up being chucked out of college for drinking misdemeanors. I have no issue with Maura drinking a lot of alcohol at uni. What I DO think is significant is the fact that she had TWO car accidents whilst drinking in the space of two days. THAT indicates to me, a serious issue with alcohol which may be indicative of some severe emotional disturbance.

I agree with you there Lola. I follow the JR blog occasionally and somethings he's posted (if true) would make me think that she was skating on thin ice with the legal aspects. MM was studying to be a nurse- which is very not likely to be successful if a person has a legal record. This is part of the reason why I always go back to the theory of her originally going to get help. Seems like FM was trying to keep MM from destroying her future. I agree also with the emotional disturbance- most addictions are indicative of emotional disturbance.

 

[scoops]

@leftlautist

yeah SR is Sharon Rauch, Billy's mom. agreed about the accidents being the the final straw w. everything else that was piling up on her. I don't think we'll ever know really what was the cause of all her stress unless her family decides to be more forthcoming, which i don't believe will happen anytime soon. I am, however, convinced FM knows (or has an idea) about what was bothering her prior to her disappearance. As for the drinking due to mental stress, I definitely feel the same way...i know people have disputed the amount of alcohol/kinds of alcohol she brought along, and I agree that that alcohol alone might not stand out (especially because I lived the first 18 years of my life in WI, where a good amount of the population finds any excuse to drink) but what did stand out for me was the putting it in the soda can and drinking WHILE she was driving ALONE. I can unfortunately understand people passing around a bottle and the driver having a drink out of it on the way to a party, game, vacation, or whatever. I cannot understand someone drinking alone in the middle of nowhere, when they are on probation for credit card fraud, after just having crashed their father's car a few days prior. If she was drinking, she had a significant alcohol problem, or was on the way to developing one...or she just didn't care anymore.

@scoops

i feel like when i first started looking at this case, i saw somewhere a missing poster, or alert that had gone out to the meeting (may it was a LE press conference or briefing of some sort?) that had MM listed as possibly suicidal. Do you know if that existed or if that was LE's initial belief? Regardless, I absolutely agree that the family went from being concerned and frantic to defensive, and their stories simply didn't make sense. specifically, FM insisting that whatever she was doing prior to her crash in Haverhill "doesn't matter" shows he is in complete denial. If we knew where MM was headed for sure, what happened prior to her disappearance may matter...but w.o that, all we have to go on is what happened prior to her disappearance...because that is what will tell us why she was in Haverhill in the first place. agree with @coffeelover that she probably didn't make it too far (but i doubt we'll ever get the specific search areas)

I believe in the early days, it was on a local tv show (the chronicle) that the lead investigator mentioned that Maura may have come to the area to do personal harm to herself.

Investigators did believe Maura came up to harm herself ... that is what they were forewarned about concerning Maura before they knew anything about her or why she would be in their area.

To the media, the actual investigators have never given their official thoughts on what happened to her (that is official investigative protocol), but they have gone as far as to say they think Maura went missing on her own volition while also consistently maintaining publically over the years that there are and were never any signs of foul play involved.

 

[sandcastle]

Hello to all.
I am a long time lurker on this case.
I was drawn in to this story, as many of you have, by the TV shows about Maura's case.
I have been thinking about this case for some time. Going over stated facts and trying to come to some conclusions. Lately, to try to get some clarity, I have been going back and rereading as many old forums and news articles as I can. After you sift thru the posts, news articles, disregarding the countless arguments, misinformation and poor reporting. It occurs to me that many of the things we assume to be fact may not be so. I have taken to making notes with the hope of getting some answers to the questions I have along the way. However, I am not sure the answers will ever be forthcoming.

I am not attacking the family, but what would it hurt to simply set some simple facts about the case straight? Surely, some things would have to be held back, but there are many things that could be clarified without jeopardizing a criminal case (if there is a criminal case).

I am no Psychologist, but people don't do random things. There is always a motive, even if it is not clear to the observer. I think we can all agree that there is a undercurrent that follows Maura's actions through out the days leading up to her disappearance.
Maybe we could learn a great deal of information about Maura by simply following a minute to minute time line of events.
By studying her actions and reactions during the time line we maybe able to deduce what Maura was thinking at any given point.

When I have more time, I would like to put forth some questions that could be debated with the hope of coming to a resolution to each question.

 

[Raging Ranter]

Hello to all.
I am a long time lurker on this case.
I was drawn in to this story, as many of you have, by the TV shows about Maura's case.
I have been thinking about this case for some time. Going over stated facts and trying to come to some conclusions. Lately, to try to get some clarity, I have been going back and rereading as many old forums and news articles as I can. After you sift thru the posts, news articles, disregarding the countless arguments, misinformation and poor reporting. It occurs to me that many of the things we assume to be fact may not be so. I have taken to making notes with the hope of getting some answers to the questions I have along the way. However, I am not sure the answers will ever be forthcoming.

I am not attacking the family, but what would it hurt to simply set some simple facts about the case straight? Surely, some things would have to be held back, but there are many things that could be clarified without jeopardizing a criminal case (if there is a criminal case).

I am no Psychologist, but people don't do random things. There is always a motive, even if it is not clear to the observer. I think we can all agree that there is a undercurrent that follows Maura's actions through out the days leading up to her disappearance.
Maybe we could learn a great deal of information about Maura by simply following a minute to minute time line of events.
By studying her actions and reactions during the time line we maybe able to deduce what Maura was thinking at any given point.

When I have more time, I would like to put forth some questions that could be debated with the hope of coming to a resolution to each question.

Most of us feel the same way. I totally sympathize with the family, and with her father's desire not to tarnish his daughter's name. But this insistence that "it doesn't matter" what happened before she disappeared or why she ended up on that section of Route 112 is just wrong.

Notice we do not have these conversations about Brianna Maitland? There's a reason for that. Her family and friends never tried to control the flow of information. They never made the absurd claim that her actions prior to her disappearance didn't matter. Of course they matter! Every damned little bit of it matters. Throughout the history of Maitland discussions, nobody to my recollection has been attacked for bringing up the factors in her life that preceded her disappearance, good or bad. But until recently it was not uncommon to be outright attacked for suggesting Maura had problems in her life or asking why she took off and ended up there on route 112. Ten years ago, there were very few websites where these things were discussed, and whenever Maura was discussed, self-appointed guardians would show up to insist - often angrily - that people stop pursuing certain avenues of inquiry. That doesn't happen much anymore because crime discussions on the Internet have gotten so numerous and so dispersed, there's just no way these self-appointed gate-keepers can police all the discussions and run interference like they used to.

What really bothers me, and I've made this same complaint on JR's blog recently, is how certain people who run the "official" MM Facebook Page are all too happy to allow commenters to let fly with accusations against certain individuals peripheral to the case. The poor old bus driver, for example, died under a cloud of suspicion that he never deserved, just for stopping to help and then calling the police. He takes a beating on the MM Facebook page to this very day. Couple that with the trespassing and the attitude of some searchers toward the locals in the early days, it is no wonder the locals turned against her family and started giving investigators a hard time. A family that is so defensive of its own reputation should be a little more careful about disparaging the reputations of others.

 

[BillNH]

IIRC it was one of the responding officers to the Haverhill accident that found and removed the rag from the tailpipe. While I agree that Fred's rag explination could be spin, I believe it's very plausible that it could be exactly as he said it was. I do believe its possible Maura went to NH to harm herself but I just cannot believe that as a last minute attempt to salvage her plan after the accident she stuffed the rag in there to make an attempt to do it right then and there. Even if she were in some kind of frantic drunken state I just don't see her believing she even had time for it to work knowing that LE was likely on its way and she wanted to hightail it out of there. I think it is much more believable that it's as Fred said it was and has nothing to do with what happened to her.

 

[Fireweed]

I think Maura stuffed the rag up the tailpipe in a misguided attempt to restart her car.

 

[BillNH]

I think Maura stuffed the rag up the tailpipe in a misguided attempt to restart her car.

I haven't heard that one before, could you elaborate?

 

[Fireweed]

I haven't heard that one before, could you elaborate?

I just see the drunk mind operating that way.

 

[BillNH]

If it were my drunk mind I probably would have stretched out on the warm hood of the car and laughed about the fine mess I've gotten myself into over the past few days until the cops showed up to haul me away.
In all seriousness though, it seems that she had to been much less under the influence than what we are thinking or highly motivated to get the hell out of there. What could have motivated her to that extent? Probably something we could not even begin to imagine. The puzzle pieces we have do not fit. If LE and all the other great minds have failed thus far to draw a conclusion, I have to think that much of what we know is unrelated to her disappearance or at best marginally or tangentially connected. If or when the truth is known, it will be a jaw-dropping experience for all who have been following. JMO of course.

 

[Fireweed]

I agree Bill, LE in this case does not know jack, and neither do any of the PI's that were hired. No one close to this case knows any more than we do which is really quite terrifying to me. FM is obsessed with "why" LE did not immediately search for Maura (as though that will help find her). Here is your answer Fred: because they didn't. Now let's move on with something that may actually find her.

I agree that what actually happened to Maura, is probably something that we have yet to explore.

 

[Fireweed]

Does anyone know if the coordinates that were sent to Renner were ever fully investigated this summer? I know that someone tried to go up there a while back, but there was too much snow.