NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
Leflautist, I think this is a very astute observation. From what the family have said about Fred, he appears to be a perfectionist- image is all important to him. The idea that his aspiring daughter might be anything less than the *all american girl* he so desperately tries to portray her as makes perfect sense. To be perfectly honest, I dont think Fred would have taken the idea that Maura had mental health issues at all well. In fact, I think he would have tried to cover it up at any cost (hence the sudden "local dirtbag" theory).
 
Leflautist, I think that's a really interesting theory and one I had never considered before. Are there any health clinics in the area she was headed to? It seems to me like the logical decision (if she intended on seeking treatment for some sort of mental health issue) would be to stay in Massachusetts- it's where she was from, and I can't imagine there are many inpatient mental health facilities in the White Mountains area. My second issue is if she was en-route to a treatment center or hospital of some sort, she was already making a decision that is extremely difficult to make- admitting that whatever issue you have has become unable to control, and you need to seek help. Since she'd already made that decision by leaving, why wouldn't she wait at the crash scene and tell the police where she was going? They wouldn't be able to tell her family members where she really was if she didn't give consent for them to contact them, and if she was suicidal or in danger of harming herself, they have a legal obligation to treat her. Under those circumstances, I cannot imagine a police officer would be concerned about a DUI, they'd be worried about her welfare. That being said, if she was under extreme mental stress, she probably wasn't thinking rationally, especially if she was intoxicated.

That all hinges on her making the decision to check into treatment on her own- if FM made the decision for her (hence, giving her the 4000 dollars) why wouldn't he drive her there himself?
 
What about the notion that she may have been pregnant? Do you folks think she could have been on her way to get an abortion?
 
I just don't think she was pregnant. I don't know why. Gut feeling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I agree that I don't think she was pregnant and getting an abortion, simply because I can't imagine there are many abortion clinics in the White Mountains area (although I could be wrong). It's legal to get an abortion in Massachusetts, and there are numerous clinics in Boston alone- why not go there? That being said, it would certainly explain her behavior leading up to the crash in Haverhill, but it doesn't explain what happened to her after the crash. That's why I still believe, with the facts given, suicide is the most plausible theory. It explains her behavior prior to the crash, explains why she was in the White Mountains area, and explains why she didn't ask for help at the Haverhill crash scene. I don't think any of the reasons used against the suicide theory are strong enough to eliminate it- as I've said, I won't rule out that she died accidentally while trying to hide from police, and I won't eliminate MM meeting foul play in some way, but those situations still can't explain why she she was in Haverhill in the first place. She was skipping class, she'd had an accident already, she told no one where she was going, and she left her dorm room packed up (I know that her family disputes that, but the police have stated they found nothing on the walls or in drawers, and that everything was in boxes, with an email from her boyfriend to her on top) and she emptied her bank account, then spent 40 dollars on liquor. She left in an allegedly unreliable car in the middle of winter, she was drinking and driving, and she crashed in a rural part of NH, and instead of seeking help, she pleaded w. BA not to call the police, then disappeared, taking only alcohol w. her. Given those facts, what would the most logical conclusion be? Probably the same conclusion FM initially reached- she went in into the mountains to kill herself. I know that there have been credible witnesses that have identified her as in the area after the crash, but witness identifications are notoriously unreliable...especially if the witness had never seen the person prior to their disappearance. I've also heard the leaving the scene of the accident w. the alcohol is irrelevant because she likely took it to hide because or get rid of because she couldn't get a DUI, and the alcohol was drinks used to make mixers, not enough to kill someone. MM was no more than 120 pounds and she had a bottle of vodka...that's alone is enough to kill her. On top of that, she left a coke can w. alcohol and the box of Franzia at the scene...why not just throw the other alcohol in the trunk too?

That being said, what are your theories with the rag in the tailpipe? It's the one piece of evidence that really baffles me... I don't buy FM's explanation, but I have no idea why else it would be there. Thoughts?
 
I think suicide is most likely as well. I'm thinking the rag was a failed attempt at suicide from carbon monoxide as I've mention before.
 
You are actually missing the point and making my point at the same time.

A suicide theory doesn't and has never hinged upon how many clothes Maura had packed. I do think it would help further debunk some other theories out there, such as Maura was starting over with a new life, but that is an opinion.

I personally brought up the packed bag, because it was family and family spokespeople who have come out publically and stated that Maura had a week's worth of clothing packed.

I was pointing out that they were (at best) spinning the truth to fit their own narrative. Afterall, as you so very clearly pointed out, how can anyone look at a bag's size and determine just how many days of clothing a person had packed.

In my opinion, you can't pack a "full weeks worth" of clothing into that average size gym bag, but my skepticism is more directed at the family coming out and being certain that she had a full weeks worth of clothing packed (how would they know, they didn't even know Maura was leaving her school campus). They are as you point out "just guessing." The only difference is that they truly do know what Maura had packed and if indeed Maura had just one outfit packed and some gym clothes and they are going out publically stating that she had a week's worth of clothing pack to help defend against a suicide theory, then that would fall under the category of being very misleading to basically lying.

I find it very interesting that they have never publically gone over just what exactly Maura had packed since it has been in dispute for all of these years.

They would know the answers to not just what Maura packed, but also, what was on her computer and yet family has kept very quiet about those things.

If you are truly searching for answers and you are going public for their help, you should be forthcoming about what are known FACTS and not hold things back because they may not fit your narrative that you are trying to portray to the public.

no need to worry about my reading comprehension skills! i got your point completely, i just disagreed with it.

you seem very convinced that the murray family is lying about what they know (maybe they are. i don't know them or what they know) and therefore anything that doesn't jive with how you see things is going to raise red flags. that's fine, i mean that's what this forum is all about - discussing red flags. MY point was that in this case it seems like many folks are very attached to their theory of what happened and, with so little actually known on MM's case, pretty much anything can be used to fit one's theory of choice. prime example, i have repeatedly said that the amount of alcohol MM purchased was unremarkable. to ME, that is a completely acceptable amount of alcohol for a few days away and aligns well with what i remember the average drinking habits of my fellow UMass students to be. it doesn't shout "alcoholic" or "i am planning to drink myself to death"... many others see the amount she had as excessive or symptomatic of bigger issues. they have different experiences and different POVs, so they see different flags than i do. they see it as a sign of depression or self-medication or worse. all i see it as is a sign that maybe other people think i drink too much, too.
 
I think suicide is most likely as well. I'm thinking the rag was a failed attempt at suicide from carbon monoxide as I've mention before.

the rag in the tail pipe was always the strangest piece of evidence to me, and I'll admit I also thought it was an attempt to die of carbon monoxide poisoning...but that's mostly because I've never heard of a rag being shoved in the tail pipe for any other reason. FM's explanation made no sense to me, but that may simply be because I don't really know anything about cars...would you actually be able to drive as far as she did with a rag in your tail pipe? Even if you could, I can't imagine anyone would want to. As for MM putting it in herself, I suppose it's possible but how long would it take to die of carbon monoxide poisoning...she had to assume BA or somebody else watching from their house would call police at some point (which I suppose could have been the reason she ended up leaving the car in the first place).
 
Need a mechanic to chime in. I wonder if they can tell how long it was in the tail pipe? That might lead to clues. I think Fred made up the explanation to cover up something. Maybe her mental state and the fact she was suicidal.
 
If we go the abduction route maybe someone put the rag in the pipe at her last stop then followed her until car would have broke down? Seems unlikely, how would and abductor know when that would happen.
 
thanks for the link- do you have any idea how long it would take it to stall? I'm guessing she didn't put the rag in the tail pipe in Amherst, so that pretty much blows FM's "explanation" apart (which I already kind of doubted). I would be interested to know if there is anyway they can tell how long the rag was in the tailpipe...I had never considered that. Decided to google how long it would take for one to die of carbon monoxide in a car, and the few sites I looked like gave a range of answers from 5-15 minutes. Still seems strange to try and commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning as she had no idea if anyone had called police/how long it would take them to get there, and she'd have to assume BA would probably call police at some point, if not immediately. Like I said, maybe that's why she escaped w. the alcohol. As far as an abduction goes, I still find that hard to believe, although I definitely agree it is possible (and actually pretty clever). When her car broke down, the abductor could stop, pretend they were just a good samaritan, and abduct her...or somehow get her to go in the car willingly. the problems are, like you said, he'd have no idea when/where it would break down, and none of the witness reports report seeing another car stop near the accident...and he couldn't have been following far behind, because he wouldn't want to lose site of her (as he'd have no idea where she was heading). Doesn't seem very plausible to me, but w. this case i guess anything is possible.
 
thanks for the link- do you have any idea how long it would take it to stall? I'm guessing she didn't put the rag in the tail pipe in Amherst, so that pretty much blows FM's "explanation" apart (which I already kind of doubted). I would be interested to know if there is anyway they can tell how long the rag was in the tailpipe...I had never considered that. Decided to google how long it would take for one to die of carbon monoxide in a car, and the few sites I looked like gave a range of answers from 5-15 minutes. Still seems strange to try and commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning as she had no idea if anyone had called police/how long it would take them to get there, and she'd have to assume BA would probably call police at some point, if not immediately. Like I said, maybe that's why she escaped w. the alcohol. As far as an abduction goes, I still find that hard to believe, although I definitely agree it is possible (and actually pretty clever). When her car broke down, the abductor could stop, pretend they were just a good samaritan, and abduct her...or somehow get her to go in the car willingly. the problems are, like you said, he'd have no idea when/where it would break down, and none of the witness reports report seeing another car stop near the accident...and he couldn't have been following far behind, because he wouldn't want to lose site of her (as he'd have no idea where she was heading). Doesn't seem very plausible to me, but w. this case i guess anything is possible.

BBM...An offer to drop her off somewhere safe (gas station, bus station, hostel, etc?) since she was probably desperate to leave the scene of the accident considering she very clearly didn't want help from police? This could explain how she was gone from the scene so quickly...and really could support the suicide OR abduction OR runaway theory. Because there is a definite possibility in my mind that if someone did offer her a ride, they could have easily dropped her off somewhere and carried on with their lives, never having known what they were involved with.

Sorry, I know we're talking about the rag, not trying to stray. But now I'm thinking she could have gotten a ride from a random, helpful individual to just about anywhere...
 
I just can't see her getting into a car w. another person after refusing help from BA. If she was suicidal, I don't think she would have wanted to go to her final destination so badly that would introduce hitch hiking. Why grab the alcohol and not the sentimental items? If she intended on going somewhere else before committing suicide (or to commit suicide) she likely could have bought more alcohol at some point..and leaving alcohol at the scene wouldn't have mattered at that point. I never believed the runaway theory. I don't believe that her life was so out of control that she felt that she needed to run away...unless there is a lot more serious family issues that we are unaware of, I highly doubt she would run to Canada because of a credit card fraud charge that was going to be dismissed, and then never contact anyone else again. As far as abduction, like I said I suppose it's possible (and she could be anywhere then) but I still find it highly unlikely she'd have gotten in a car w. a random person...she could have asked BA to drive her to the gas station so she could call AAA and her parents (or some sort of excuse to get him to take her there) getting in a car is risky no matter who the person is, and i find it hard to believe MM would have gotten in a car w. a person she didn't know if she didn't go anywhere w. BA.

When I first heard about this case, I briefly considered that she may have been going somewhere to meet someone (probably a guy she was seeing) and that would explain why she didn't tell anyone where she was going. When I was 21, a guy I was dating transferred the U of MN (I went to school in Chicago) and my first week of classes were cancelled bcuz of snow, so I decided to go up to MN to surprise him. I had never driven to MN from Chicago before (I grew up in a suburb of Milwaukee) so I drove to Minneapolis the only way I was comfortable with- by driving all the way up to Green Bay and then across WI (which is a route that makes no sense and is really out of the way, but the only one I'd feel safe on). I knew my parents wouldn't have let me go because I had gotten into an accident in the snow 2 years prior to this, so I didn't tell anyone where I was going and withdrew a bunch of money so I wouldn't have to use credit cards. The conditions once I got west of Green Bay were worse than I ever imagined, the trip took me almost double what I expected, and I got lost twice. The second time was somewhere around Eau Claire, and I missed a turn and ended up on some dirt road in a rural area I was unfamiliar with, w. no cars in sight, and I was frantically searching for a gas station because I was nearly out of gas. At that point, all I could think about was what an idiot I was driving around the middle of nowhere when no one knew where I was. This experience was the first thing I thought of when I heard about MM, and is partially the reason I don't imagine she ever intended on going back to Amherst. Even tho I knew I'd be in an immense amount of trouble when my parents found out where I was w. a car they had paid for, I would have called 911. Granted it was a lot colder where I was than where MM was, and there were no houses around, but at that point my only concern would be getting somewhere alive- I wouldn't have cared about getting to Minneapolis anymore. Wherever she was going, she had to have a REALLY good reason to get there for her to hitchhike, and not seek any sort of help, especially when it was right there. JMO

sorry I know this is really off topic of the rag, but i thought it worth explaining why i find hitchhiking really unlikely, or her going to meet someone unlikely- that accident was completely random, it changed everything..she never made another call on her cell phone, and was never sighted trying to use a phone anywhere in the area, so if she was meeting someone or "driving in tandem" how did she manage to get in contact w. that person or persons? I've never bought Renner's theory of another car following behind her, it introduces so many assumptions that aren't supported by any evidence.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience, stephsb. That's some scary stuff, and I certainly see what could be some parallel lines between your younger self and Maura.

I still think it's possible she could have accepted help from someone other than SA. My thoughts on this are a bit too scattered to put into a reader-friendly format atm. So I'll pause on that.

I will say that leaving sentimental items behind could support either the runaway OR suicide theory. (I just want to put it out there that I have no theory that I'm totally devoted to here as of yet).

Let's go back to the rag thing. Renner's blog states that he spoke to the tow truck operator, who said FM told Maura to stuff the rag in the tailpipe to keep the car from smoking. Now, I know Renner's opinions aren't terribly popular around here, but I don't see why he (or the tow trucker) would lie about that. If this is the case, I suppose she was just taking her dad's advice? Really...odd...advice..?
 
It is quite possible that Maura inserted the rag into the tailpipe to lend credence to her Saturn simply stalling around the curve as opposed to her failure to negotiate the curve due to impairment.
 
i know exactly what you mean when you say your thoughts are a bit too scattered to put in a reader friendly format- it took me forever to post on here because i didn't know a good way to organize all my thoughts on her disappearance lol...while i do support the suicide theory based on the evidence put forward, i definitely do consider other theories possible, and that's what has me fascinated w. this case. IMO, the theory you believe is largely dependent on how much weight you put on certain pieces of evidence, and w. so much of it being circumstantial, anything could theoretically be possible. as for my own experience, i can't imagine what my family would have thought if they had found just my car in some rural area in western WI. I suppose they would have eventually put two and two together and realized I was on my way to minneapolis, but there would be no reason to initially assume that based off the route i took. that's what makes solving MM's case so difficult- we have no idea why she was where she was, or even where she was headed. also, like you stated earlier, if she was abducted, she could theoretically be anywhere (although statistics show she'd likely still be somewhere in the area). also, another thing i often hear used against the suicide theory is that she would have been unable to hide her body and she would have been found by now. i very much disagree w. this assumption- supposing she did take off into the woods or down the road to either hide from police/end her life/walk somewhere to find help, she could have survived for awhile if she kept moving, since temperatures weren't much below freezing. she was a long distance runner, who knows how far she got (or even what direction she went in) there have been people missing in rural areas that have taken 15, 20 years to find...and it turns out they were near the original search area in the first place. i think a lot of people wrongly believe that if the search area is known, finding the body is easy, when there are a variety of factors that can very much complicate it...compare that to MM's case- we don't know what her intentions were, so finding her becomes even more difficult.

My reason for not supporting the runaway theory doesn't necessarily hinge on the sentimental items so much, but that i don't believe the evidence put forward has shown anything so horrible in MM's life that would warrant running away and never being heard from again. I don't see credit card fraud as a reason to runaway- the charges were going to be dismissed. if she did in fact runaway, there had to have been something SERIOUS going on in her family or personal life that the public didn't know about. people don't start new lives in Canada for minor credit card fraud.

As for the rag, I don't believe the tow truck driver was lying (you're exactly right in that he'd have no motivation to lie) FM, however, certainly COULD have a reason to lie (i don't believe, like Renner seems to imply, that it was for anything sinister) Renner interviewed the tow truck driver years after the fact...if Renner asked specifically about the rag in the tailpipe, it's very possible the tow truck driver had heard it reported at some point that FM had advised her to do that (because it's widely reported FM said that) and eventually just assumed it as fact. There's always a risk w. interviewing witnesses years later, because memories fade quickly...if Renner was asking leading questions (which I'm not implying he did) the witness is going to be more likely to tell him something along the lines of what he wants to hear...especially if they really don't have much info to give in the first place. Did the tow truck driver ever say prior to Renner's interview that he heard FM tell MM to put the rag in the tail pipe...if so, it would have a lot more credibility (IMO)

As for Renner, I don't think he's a liar, and I do believe he does want MM found, but I think that he is so attached to his theory that he looks for evidence that specifically supports it, even though his theory is so complicated and has so many holes it's nearly impossible to believe. So much of what he puts on his blog is just gossip that has nothing to do w. her actual disappearance. I also don't like his implications that FM is somehow guilty of something. I do believe FM is not being entirely truthful, but I think he's protecting his daughter's memory and trying to keep police and public searching for her.

One last thing about the rag...supposing FM did actually give that advice about the rag, it likely means her car was in pretty bad condition and should have never been driving to NH or VT (or wherever she was headed). That makes, IMO, her reasons for leaving extremely important. Most of the scenarios people have proposed- treatment clinics, abortion clinics, going away to collect her thoughts- could have all been done a lot closer to Amherst. If she was taking an unreliable car to NH w.o telling anyone, she had a very important reason to go to the area she was going. That's why I think people should really consider FM's initial reaction- he tells police she's gone to the white mountains to die, tells people about a story he told MM at some point about how he'd go off into the white mountains and drink himself to death, and then gets on TV and tells her to come back because "any problem we can work out, just like we always do". Then he does a complete 180 and starts insisting a local dirtbag took her and nothing else mattered prior to her disappearance...while giving no explanation of why she was in Haverhill, NH when she should have been in Amherst, especially after he told her to stuff a rag in her tail pipe because her car was in such bad condition. Going back to my experience one last time, had I ran out of gas or my car broke down in an area of western WI, the first thing my family would assume was that either my car had been stolen and I was still in Chicago, or that I had met with foul play or been abducted. I'm certain it would not have been suicide- there would be no reason for me to commit suicide off a dirt road near Eau Claire, because I had never been there and it held no significance to me. there was a reason that FM initially assumed suicide and made comments about dying in the White Mountains...i know that he was frantic and maybe saying anything that came to his mind, but even if that was the case, at the very least it showed how significant the White Mountain area was to her.

Obviously all of this is IMO, since none of us know what actually happened and so many pieces of the puzzle are missing.
 
It is quite possible that Maura inserted the rag into the tailpipe to lend credence to her Saturn simply stalling around the curve as opposed to her failure to negotiate the curve due to impairment.

that actually makes a lot of sense, I never considered that. Witnesses did see her walking around the car, so I think that's certainly possible. she'd have still had to explain why it was there in the first place though (if she intended on returning at some point) if someone put it there, police would have investigated and found it came from her kit pretty fast, and if she said she put it there, they'd ask why she was in NH and why she fled the scene.
 
Could stuffing the rag be one last F... you to her dad? Or as you say maybe she put there for an excuse on why she crashed
 
assuming FM is telling the truth about the rag, i suppose she could have done that, although i'm not entirely convinced she wanted to blame her dad in any way (if she did kill herself). she left that printed out email from BR out in her dorm room in a place it would be found, i think that might have been her F you (if she actually did leave one). If she did intend for FM to blame himself for her disappearance, i think it's much more likely that she was trying to send a message by disappearing in the white mountains w. bottles of alcohol...even if that wasn't her intent, it certainly had an impact on FM regardless, since he felt the need to mention a story he told his children about how he'd take a bottle of jack up into the white mountains to die when he became useless after MM disappeared (which is a really strange conversation to have w. your children, IMO) Granted, that's just speculation... I'd be a little more convinced she was trying to send FM a final F you if there was a bottle of jack daniels on that liquor store receipt. talk about poetic justice.

I have to say I think MM placing it in the tail pipe herself as an explanation for her crash might be the best explanation i've heard..the witness statements would seem to support it since she was outside walking around the car and around the trunk...IMO it was just such a bizarre piece of evidence w. no believable explanation for why it was there. I think FM's explanation is not credible (although the tow truck's alleged statement saying he heard FM tell MM to put the rag in the exhaust might lend him some credibility) and i just don't think if she intended to kill herself in the white mountains she was going to do it w. carbon monoxide- she could have done that in amherst. i don't think it was a coincidence that she was looking for places to stay in the white mountains area, and then disappeared there, with the Not Without Peril book in her car. Whether or not you see it as an inspiring book or a morbid book, it was a book that talked about death or brushes w. death in the White Mountains. It was a book that had sentimental value (i think i read somewhere the author had signed it) and I think FM's explanation that they passed it around their family and it was her turn to read it is another one of his convenient "explanations" for any evidence that goes against his local dirtbag theory. That being said, I still don't think it's a great explanation- if she intended to stage the accident to look like someone tampered w. the vehicle to cause an accident (in order to avoid a DUI), leaving the scene and pleading w. BA not to call police makes her look EXTREMELY suspicious..if she had nothing to hide, why not stay and wait for police? If avoiding a DUI wasn't her intention, then what would be the purpose for staging the scene? The only other explanation I can think of would be to throw people off from her real intentions by making her accident look like a crime, and i REALLY think that's a stretch...although if it is one would assume she had to be intending to leave the area, since making her accident look like sabotage would make the police aggressively search for her, since it would appear like a crime may have been committed.

I did briefly consider that the printed out email, the dorm that appeared to be packed, and the avoidance emails to BR were possibly used to send him a message- maybe she suspected/found out he had cheated on her again, and wanted to make him feel guilty/scare him so she decided to take off for a week and let him worry about her to teach him a lesson/get back at him or whatever. Purely speculation, but something that might be a possible. Of course it doesn't explain what really did happen to her since she didn't end up returning, which is a pretty big hole...and faking her disappearance would be a pretty extreme measure to take (and by extreme i mean sociopathic)...if her dorm was being searched, it would mean she knew her family would report her missing, and I can't see why she'd want to make them suffer just to prove a point to BR.

As unlikely as I see that scenario, I still see it more likely than the tandem driver theory, and it sums up why i think suicide is still the most likely explanation (although I do think it's certainly possible she died from exposure or met w. foul play while avoiding police)- other explanations involve introducing a lot of unknowns and a ton of speculation, while suicide best explains all the evidence w.o introducing a lot of other events that may or may not have happened. Like I've stated previously, it explains her actions prior and why she was in the location she was in when she crashed, while exposure and foul play still don't explain why she took off in the way she did.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
142
Guests online
1,626
Total visitors
1,768

Forum statistics

Threads
599,478
Messages
18,095,816
Members
230,862
Latest member
jusslikeme
Back
Top