NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[scoops]

Hj

I am not buying into the suicide theory, but this method has merit. If it's effective, and you are somewhat passive in your own demise, it's possible she did it this way.

Wander into the mountains, miles away from the nearest person and medical care to be certain a Good Samaritan will not save you. Eat a ton of Tylenol and drink your favorite alcoholic beverage to numb the pain while the Tylenol kills you. Once you ingest the pills, you are too far away from anything even if you have second thoughts. Most people may not choose this method because it's not quick, but it would certainly fit this scenario in particular.

Just to kind of add to this:

I believe Maura really - for a lack of a better word - romanticized the stories that were in the book Not Without Peril.

From the hikers I have heard describe their take on the book stories, the deaths depicted were pretty nasty ones, however, the methods, instincts, improvisation that was done to try and survive, spoke largely about some very strong-willed people that unfortunately met their match when it came to the mountains and more importantly the weather, but went down with one hell of a fight nonetheless.

Could Maura maybe have intentionally put herself in a position to where the odds were completely against her (by drinking and taking Tylenol PM while being totally exposed to the elements, to see what kind of real fighter she really was?

To me to put yourself into that position, you must be willing to sacrifice your life and give up everything.

Maybe Maura just got to that point where her regular life just didn't matter anymore.

 

[Fireweed]

I know a lot of people speculate that Maura ran off into the woods, and I actually do find that plausible. My only issue with it is that going off into the woods at night by yourself is incredibly scary. I concede that the suicidal mind works differently, but I am still having some trouble wrapping my head around any person just marching into the woods alone at night. It goes against human instinct.

People have driven up to Maura's crash site during the day in their cars. What I want to see is someone record what it is like to walk off into the woods at night from that crash site. I bet that person would experience a great deal of apprehension and fear.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

To me to put yourself into that position, you must be willing to sacrifice your life and give up everything.

Maybe Maura just got to that point where her regular life just didn't matter anymore.

I think this is key. Looking at the few days before Maura disappears we see a number of traumatic incidents / accidents and also first hand evidence of trauma (I am thinking here of the phone call and subsequent mental 'shut-down' Maura suffered). We know enough about Fred to assume he is not exactly laid back and I believe its likely he at least erupted when he discovered Maura had significantly damaged his car. Incidentally I still find it strange that the police officer let Maura go on a minor charge when the evidence from Renner suggests that Maura was drunk when she crashed her Fathers car. Anyhow, Fred was likely extremely angry with Maura that night, especially if she was intoxicated. His anger with his daughter had probably been building for some time from Maura stealing make up (and thereby being kicked out of West Point) to the recent fraud charges from use of a stolen credit card number.

When Maura crashed her car while intoxicated it threatened to be a very damaging brush with the law had she stuck around. Red wine was spilt all over the interior of the car. But perhaps even worse than the trouble with the law was having her Father find out she had got in serious trouble once again. I'm not implying Fred was intimidating toward Maura in any physical way it just might have been that Maura could not stand to look her Father in the eye after letting him down once again. Perhaps initially Maura was just driving to get away from her worries and problems but after the accident things had just piled on and on to such a point that life really didn't matter anymore. Perhaps all that mattered was not dealing with the fallout from the accident, fallout that involved both reprisals from the law and her Father.

 

[CircuitGuy]

When Maura crashed her car while intoxicated it threatened to be a very damaging brush with the law had she stuck around. Red wine was spilt all over the interior of the car. But perhaps even worse than the trouble with the law was having her Father find out she had got in serious trouble once again. I'm not implying Fred was intimidating toward Maura in any physical way it just might have been that Maura could not stand to look her Father in the eye after letting him down once again. Perhaps initially Maura was just driving to get away from her worries and problems but after the accident things had just piled on and on to such a point that life really didn't matter anymore. Perhaps all that mattered was not dealing with the fallout from the accident, fallout that involved both reprisals from the law and her Father.

In the ID video he emphasizes that the accident really wasn't that big a deal and insurance would cover it. This suggests to me he may have been at least a little upset with her. He seemed a little to focused on it, saying I told her the insurance would cover it. Also in the ID video he's seen talking to the media telling Maura if she's listening we can work this out. She wasn't talking to her captor but rather to Maura who had issues with him.

 

[CircuitGuy]

Exactly. This is far from a lethal combination. Diphenhydramine is other ingredient in Tylenol PM -- the "PM" part -- and it's just an antihistamine, the over-the-counter allergy medicine commonly called Benadryl. They use it because of its soporific side effects combined with its safety and non-addictiveness.

Yes. I don't understand exactly why people use Tylenol PM. I can buy Tylenol, and I can buy Benedryl. Why do I need them combined into one pill for the rare times I need both medicines at once?

If someone were going to commit suicide, I'd imagine she'd use straight Benedryl, or doxylamine succinate which is like Benedryl but a little more sedating. Both are OTC. I don't understand why she'd bring Tylenol into the mix. OTOH, if someone is suicidal, they may not reason the way I would.

 

[scoops]

I know a lot of people speculate that Maura ran off into the woods, and I actually do find that plausible. My only issue with it is that going off into the woods at night by yourself is incredibly scary. I concede that the suicidal mind works differently, but I am still having some trouble wrapping my head around any person just marching into the woods alone at night. It goes against human instinct.

People have driven up to Maura's crash site during the day in their cars. What I want to see is someone record what it is like to walk off into the woods at night from that crash site. I bet that person would experience a great deal of apprehension and fear.

Heading to the woods (already with drinks in the system) while taking nothing but vodka with you, I would think would take away some of the scariness.

But the main point I want to make is that I truly believe Maura's "Plans" initially involved a final destination of the mountains, but in the day time hours.

I do think she wanted to stay the night in a hotel. I don't think she was trying to rent a condo like her phone call suggested, however.

I think the area of the condo is where Maura had decided to go ultimately and she wanted to gather up information (from the condo owners) about how busy they were at that time.

Maura (IMO) may not have been fully suicidal when she left for New Hampshire.

She brought "Valuables" but in reality they were items 'valuable to her because they would stir up emotion.'

I could see her using a night at a motel (such as the one her family ended up staying at when they were searching for her) to contemplate a plan of going on one final epic hike or doing an about face and returning to Amherst.

I think Maura would've written a note or several notes (Farewell notes) that night in a hotel if she had decided to not return back to Amherst.

I think her plan all along (If she was going to go through with hiking) would've been to hit the trails first thing in the morning.

Obviously the accident changed whatever her plans were. And the fact she took time to gather up the vodka and take nothing else, is a red flag in my book that says she was accelerating her plans.

 

[lawstudent]

I can see romantically running off in to the woods and as a suicide plan, since she had an interest in the mountains and all that. I can see how that might make sense in her mind, and alcohol + cold could bring a quick and relatively calm death overnight. But I can't imagine how much alcohol one would have to drink and keep down in order to do that effectively. It seems like it could end up taking quite a while and become quite unpleasant, but I suppose she could have planned to pass out and die of the cold. Alcohol makes you feel warmer even though you are becoming much more likely to die of exposure as you drink it.

Benadryl is not an effective means by which to commit suicide. Apparently huge doses can make you high to the point of being psychotic, but I've never heard of someone dying via benadryl alone.

 

[Lolacat]

I dont know. I just cant see her running into the woods. I just cant. Didnt BA say when he spoke with Maura she was shivering? So, she was cold, she didnt want the police to find her and she had had a drink- but not enough to appear very obviously intoxicated. She only took the alcohol. I just find it bizarre for her to run into the woods right there and then- if she was worried about the police, wouldnt she want to get further away down the road before doing anything- at least give herself a moment to think? I would have to be absolutely paralytic before I'd run into woods in the dark, freezing cold - although, admittedly I am not suicidal, so I am not in that desperate state. It just seems to me that *if* she was suicidal, her idea of leaving this world in the beauty of the white mountains whilst drinking herself into oblivion is SO far removed from running into the dark woods whilst cold, relatively sober and in a state of panic. I just dont know. :thinking:

 

[CircuitGuy]

Benadryl is not an effective means by which to commit suicide. Apparently huge doses can make you high to the point of being psychotic, but I've never heard of someone dying via benadryl alone.

I agree with this quote except I wouldn't characterize large doses of Benadryl (diphenhydramine) as causing psychosis. Benadryl, straight Benadryl not mixed with decongestants or cough suppressants, is a sedative. It's more sedating if you take more than recommended, but it quickly plateaus. 50mg (a full dose) makes you about twice as sedated as 25mg, but going to 200mg doesn’t do all the much more than 50mg, apart from drying the mouth and making the user feel lousy.

I agree that Benadryl makes people drowsy but not enough to kill them.

 

[lawstudent]

I agree with this quote except I wouldn't characterize large doses of Benadryl (diphenhydramine) as causing psychosis. Benadryl, straight Benadryl not mixed with decongestants or cough suppressants, is a sedative. It's more sedating if you take more than recommended, but it quickly plateaus. 50mg (a full dose) makes you about twice as sedated as 25mg, but going to 200mg doesn’t do all the much more than 50mg, apart from drying the mouth and making the user feel lousy.

I agree that Benadryl makes people drowsy but not enough to kill them.

I've never taken large quantities of benadryl, so you may be right. I've read about people who abuse it for a high by taking huge amounts. Supposedly they hallucinate, but who knows - the Internet is full of fake stories. It doesn't even make me sleepy, so maybe those people are especially sensitive.

 

[scoops]

I dont know. I just cant see her running into the woods. I just cant. Didnt BA say when he spoke with Maura she was shivering? So, she was cold, she didnt want the police to find her and she had had a drink- but not enough to appear very obviously intoxicated. She only took the alcohol. I just find it bizarre for her to run into the woods right there and then- if she was worried about the police, wouldnt she want to get further away down the road before doing anything- at least give herself a moment to think? I would have to be absolutely paralytic before I'd run into woods in the dark, freezing cold - although, admittedly I am not suicidal, so I am not in that desperate state. It just seems to me that *if* she was suicidal, her idea of leaving this world in the beauty of the white mountains whilst drinking herself into oblivion is SO far removed from running into the dark woods whilst cold, relatively sober and in a state of panic. I just dont know. :thinking:

Two points to make:

First is time.

With having to abandon her car, Maura likely was aware that as soon as police arrived they would be able to identify who the car belonged too (which was fred murray). Maura likely wouldn't have known that it would take until the afternoon of the next day for Fred to be informed.

If Maura believed fred would be getting a phone call that very same night, she would know that her time to do whatever it was she was planning, would be brief.

My opinion is that Maura was headed for a place she (and her father) were familiar with (hiking trail). Maura had just been to the very same area she went missing three months earlier.

If Maura believed her father was on the way, she would likely believe IMO, that he would know where to find her.

So she may have had little choice in waiting until morning (to do whatever she was planning).

Second, I am not of the opinion that Maura just darted into the woods.

I think she could've very easily hitched a ride miles away or miles closer to wherever she was really wanting to go.

A good Samaritan passing through the area, may have helped a stranded motorist and never thought back to that night again. If a good Samaritan wasn't from that area, then there is a decent chance they have never heard (in the media) about Maura's case. As much as Maura's case is talked about on internet sites etc.. it really isn't a well-known missing case like JonBenet Ramsey for instance.

 

[Lolacat]

YES. I am far more likely to believe that she either followed the road by running or attempted to get away from the area by hitching a lift of some kind. Running straight into the woods in the cold darkness never made any sense to me.

 

[Mr. Noatak]

Two points to make:

First is time.

With having to abandon her car, Maura likely was aware that as soon as police arrived they would be able to identify who the car belonged too (which was fred murray). Maura likely wouldn't have known that it would take until the afternoon of the next day for Fred to be informed.

If Maura believed fred would be getting a phone call that very same night, she would know that her time to do whatever it was she was planning, would be brief.

My opinion is that Maura was headed for a place she (and her father) were familiar with (hiking trail). Maura had just been to the very same area she went missing three months earlier.

If Maura believed her father was on the way, she would likely believe IMO, that he would know where to find her.

So she may have had little choice in waiting until morning (to do whatever she was planning).

Second, I am not of the opinion that Maura just darted into the woods.

I think she could've very easily hitched a ride miles away or miles closer to wherever she was really wanting to go.

A good Samaritan passing through the area, may have helped a stranded motorist and never thought back to that night again. If a good Samaritan wasn't from that area, then there is a decent chance they have never heard (in the media) about Maura's case. As much as Maura's case is talked about on internet sites etc.. it really isn't a well-known missing case like JonBenet Ramsey for instance.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Yes, Maura hitched a ride; she hitched a ride at the junction of Ammonoosuc Road and Bradley Hill Road. But with the wrong guy. The guy turned around and went back up Bradley Hill Road for a short distance.

This guy is likely originally from the local area and likely possessed a prior rap sheet that included domestic violence. He might be involved in the Brianna Maitland disappearance. He is not the "Connecticut Valley Killer", but something about him might be learned by studying this earlier serial killer (please think about this my friends).

None of the currently-named witnesses in the Maura Murray case are criminally-involved. But one or more of them might possess useful information without realizing it. The officials did not botch this case, indeed they have worked very hard on it, but they may have asked the wrong questions early-on.

Just saying. What the heck do I know anyway? I live thousands of miles away!

Sleuth On!

 

[Captain_Khan]

Does anyone have any statistics on suicide by exposure? I know that inherently that would be something that is difficult to correlate, but it might be useful. Personally I'd never heard of the idea before encountering this case, but if there is a precedent, that will be something to be aware of.

 

[scoops]

Does anyone have any statistics on suicide by exposure? I know that inherently that would be something that is difficult to correlate, but it might be useful. Personally I'd never heard of the idea before encountering this case, but if there is a precedent, that will be something to be aware of.

It currently ranks #13 in most popular suicide methods (AKA Hypothermia). ---- according to suicidemethods.net

We got a little insight (IMO) into what Fred Murray was really thinking when (off-camera and away from media attention) he stated that they would find his daughter up at the top of a mountain naked and drunk (remember when the cameras were rolling, he was stating for certain that Maura was taken by a local dirt bag).

Fred being an avid hiker (IMO) was describing someone who suffers through hypothermia and falls into a state known as paradoxical undressing where they strip off all their clothes because they feel like they are burning, shortly before they die.

 

[Captain_Khan]

It currently ranks #13 in most popular suicide methods (AKA Hypothermia). ---- according to suicidemethods.net

...

Fred being an avid hiker (IMO) was describing someone who suffers through hypothermia and falls into a state known as paradoxical undressing where they strip off all their clothes because they feel like they are burning, shortly before they die.

Thanks for that info, that's very useful. I agree about Fred's statement - as a hiker, he would almost certainly be aware of paradoxical undressing.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I agree with this quote except I wouldn't characterize large doses of Benadryl (diphenhydramine) as causing psychosis. Benadryl, straight Benadryl not mixed with decongestants or cough suppressants, is a sedative.

I might be off base but my impression is that "sedatives" (benzos, hypnotics, barbiturates, etc.) are not at all the same thing as drugs that "make you sleepy." Like Benadryl. Certain drugs can make some people sleepy (i.e., have soporific effects) without being "sedatives" per se.

A lot of people I know have no concept at all that Tylenol PM is NOT in the same ballpark as Valium or what have you. They think it's all the same thing, it's all part of the dreaded entity classed as "Sleeping! Pills!" -- which amazes me. They seem to have no concept of OTC vs. prescription, to begin with. Much less anything beyond that.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I know a lot of people speculate that Maura ran off into the woods, and I actually do find that plausible. My only issue with it is that going off into the woods at night by yourself is incredibly scary. I concede that the suicidal mind works differently, but I am still having some trouble wrapping my head around any person just marching into the woods alone at night. It goes against human instinct.

People have driven up to Maura's crash site during the day in their cars. What I want to see is someone record what it is like to walk off into the woods at night from that crash site. I bet that person would experience a great deal of apprehension and fear.

I think it could depend on your familiarity with going into the woods at all, though, and/or the woods by night.

I know Maura hiked a lot and was no stranger to the woods. Whether that included night experience is another question, one which I don't know the answer to. It is frightening to go into the woods at night, but somewhat less so if you've actually done it a few times. Most people haven't.

On the Jamison family boards some of us were talking about how easy it is to get lost in the woods, and some folks seemed surprised at the fact that you could get very lost very quickly. I can only assume they were not that familiar with walking in real woods!

A few folks related anecdotes of getting lost in the woods. I gave my dad's experience as a young man in the Ontario forest (daylight, with a group of not-woods-newbs, yet they were all instantly and frighteningly lost). Another poster related his terrifying experience of being in woods by night and getting lost in a matter of seconds. I think he was a hunter maybe...? Or maybe just a hardcore woodsman/hiker. He placed his backpack beneath a tree (which included his flashlight), stepped away for a moment, came back to what he thought was the tree with his pack, yet was totally unable to find it. He went on hands and knees and felt everywhere in the area and simply could not find it. He realized he was totally disoriented and that further excursions would only make him more lost, so he sat down and just waited for daylight. For hours.

The upshot is, some hikers/campers etc. do indeed go into the woods at night, as petrifying as that seems to many of us.

I have sometimes wondered if Maura ran into the woods because she was afraid of someone on the road. (Pickup truck person or another creep -- maybe someone she caught a ride with who quickly became a problem or just gave off a bad vibe, so she bailed and ran.) If she ran in on foot, and huddled on the ground behind a log and hid/waited, the cold earth would leach her body heat quickly and torpor would overtake her, leading to her death. In other words, she might have eluded a would-be abductor, yet still met death via hypothermia, and if it's a couple miles from where she was last seen, that would explain why she has not been found.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

I do think she wanted to stay the night in a hotel. I don't think she was trying to rent a condo like her phone call suggested, however.

I think the area of the condo is where Maura had decided to go ultimately and she wanted to gather up information (from the condo owners) about how busy they were at that time.

In my travel experience, condo versus hotel is not necessarily a big difference price-wise. Just this past week, a friend and I went to the beach and rented a condo, via a discount hotel site, with 2 BR 2 BA and a kitchen. It was just $10 more than a hotel room at a Red Roof Inn, and the kitchen saved us lots in food costs.

In other words, I think Maura was just looking for lodgings, period. Her family had stayed at a condo in the past so she checked there first when looking for lodgings. Maybe she did have some secondary motivation, like checking out how busy the area was, but I see zero evidence to support it so far.

 

[SchoolgirlShamus]

And the fact she took time to gather up the vodka and take nothing else, is a red flag in my book that says she was accelerating her plans.

Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can tell, no one knows WHAT she took with her from the car, because no one knows everything she took with her on the trip to begin with.

We know she bought alcohol because of the receipt, the video footage, the wine left in the car and the alcohol-smelling liquid found at the scene. We assume she took some of it with her when she left the scene, because it wasn't all found in the car, but that's an assumption. She could have given it to someone, or left some of it behind (excluding the wine) at some unknown stop, by accident or design, or she could have gotten disgusted with herself and thrown most of it out the window. Who knows?

For that matter, why are you saying she only took "the vodka," scoops? It wasn't the only missing alcohol.

The simplest explanation is that she had the alcohol with her in the car, and because it was gone, she took it with her when she left the scene (though it would have been a heavy and rattling load to carry in a backpack), but the fact is we don't actually know what she did with it.

The larger point is that I don't understand why people declare, "She ONLY took blah blah!" "She ONLY had clothes for blah days!" -- For all we know she had a handled shopping bag with recently purchased outfits and toiletries in it, which she took when she left. We would never know!

I understand she left behind a toothbrush and birth control pills and Tylenol PM etc., but we only know she left those things behind because she left those things behind.

To sum up: I think it's important to remember that we can only deduce what she MAY have taken from the scene. We do not KNOW what she actually took, because no one saw her pack her bag(s), no one saw her leave, and because she and her backpack (or any other bags or items she took with her) have never been found.