NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[scoops]

I'm unclear whether they immediately searched along Bradley Hill Road. If I were in Maura's situation and wanted to avoid the police, I'd definitely get off the main road and hide out on a side-road. This was also the place where there was a sighting of a red truck around the time of her disappearance.

Much of the red truck hype is complete and utter bullox. (B.S.)

There was a witness who did encounter a possible red truck that night prior to maura even arriving into the area.

Some of the rest of the hype about a red truck has been introduced as a red herring by a certain poster that James Renner has already called out on his website for pretending to be a true investigator that worked on the Maura Murray case.

I also called this person out (probably around a year ago) on Topix (Franconia Forum)

He was not an investigator and all of the stuff he pointed out about a red truck, he has never come close to substantiating such as the red truck spotted on Bradley Hill Rd. business.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I do wonder just how careful they were (having 12 firemen/women) out looking for a abandoned car's driver when (at the time) there was no sense of anything sinister having happened.

Were they really considering that by them walking and driving around, that they may indeed be destroying footprint evidence by treading/driving over it themselves.

If they knew that someone was literally taken from the scene, the 12 firemen/women likely would've not been allowed to even search that night to begin with.

Police would've roped off the entire area from the public and immediately would've begun an investigation themselves.


From everything I have heard, there was no snow to at most a moderate dusting on the roads that night.
Maura's footprints were believed to have been spotted right next to her car in the snow bank.

If Maura walked on the road, I highly doubt that days later - when searches really began for her - that they would be able to find her footprints.

This changes things again for me, flip-flop. I assumed that there was a heavy blanket of snow in the area. You make the pertinent point that the tracks Maura left could very likely have been destroyed by the amount of searchers trampling the area. Like many others I am guilty of searching for certainty in a case where certainty is rare or non-existent. No matter how many people were looking for Maura it does actually seem possible that at night Maura might well have hid in the woods unnoticed. And as noted the searchers would not have realized the gravity of the situation which we have with hindsight. If the road were busier I would actually think it more likely that Maura hid out in the woods rather than leaving the area in another vehicle. Of course it is also possible that at first Maura hid in the woods but then walked out to flag down a ride when she saw lights.....

Not to endlessly bang the same drum but I still feel the report of the red pick up might be key. The suspicious way the driver acted and the timing of the sighting just seem to dovetail with Maura's accident exactly. From what I have read from the witness herself and reading about others who have spoken to her she seems to be very credible. The fact that this driver passed the witness once and then drove away as she approached the vehicle a second time I find very unsettling. It would be useful if LE or anyone else located other drivers who subsequently passed the accident, I guess that it would have been hard enough back in 2004 never mind 10 years later though.

For me all this still doesn't preclude a further search of the wider area where the accident took place. Finding her bag and / or the alcohol bottles would represent a major triumph. Regardless of foul play being involved or not there is still a big chance Maura lay at rest in that wider area.

Out of interest who is convinced that Maura is still alive? Could you provide reasons? I sincerely want to be convinced.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

Much of the red truck hype is complete and utter bullox. (B.S.)

There was a witness who did encounter a possible red truck that night prior to maura even arriving into the area.

Some of the rest of the hype about a red truck has been introduced as a red herring by a certain poster that James Renner has already called out on his website for pretending to be a true investigator that worked on the Maura Murray case.

I also called this person out (probably around a year ago) on Topix (Franconia Forum)

He was not an investigator and all of the stuff he pointed out about a red truck, he has never come close to substantiating such as the red truck spotted on Bradley Hill Rd. business.

This is interesting. I always felt that the woman who gave the account of seeing the red truck was very credible. I was also under the impression that Renner had spoken to her and found her credible. This is the woman who saw the truck head off to the accident site and then afterwards saw the police go past in responding (the police also spoke to her). It was a very detailed account, I understood it to be this way due to the driver of the truck acting so suspiciously.

is this witness unreliable? Everything I have read was contrary to this.

 

[scoops]

This is interesting. I always felt that the woman who gave the account of seeing the red truck was very credible. I was also under the impression that Renner had spoken to her and found her credible. This is the woman who saw the truck head off to the accident site and then afterwards saw the police go past in responding (the police also spoke to her). It was a very detailed account, I understood it to be this way due to the driver of the truck acting so suspiciously.

is this witness unreliable? Everything I have read was contrary to this.

She was legit.

But her story consists of a red truck (not sure if guy or gal driving) stopping for a second (going up a hill) as witness walks towards and gets closer truck continues east.

Witness arrives at little gas station (which is about a mile to less than a mile from Maura's wreck site) and truck is sitting at entrance of gas station.

When witness walks up to the gas station, the truck pulls out (at a normal rate, not in a hurry) and heads east. She believed the truck to have Massachusetts plates.


I guess that constitutes being suspicious, but this truck would've still been about 15 minutes ahead of Maura and then pulling out and continuing east without giving maura a chance to catch up to him/her, if they were truly traveling in tandem with Maura.

 

[Fireweed]

The "we never saw any footprints" thing has always sort of bothered me. First of all, there is no way in hell that there were not human footprints in the snow within a certain radius of the accident. There must have been locals who walked their dog or took a walk that day. If no one saw any footprints going off even slightly into the woods in the area around the accident, then that makes no sense. Someone from the area walked around at some point from the last snowfall until the search.

 

[Sue Doe Nimm]

The "we never saw any footprints" thing has always sort of bothered me. First of all, there is no way in hell that there were not human footprints in the snow within a certain radius of the accident. There must have been locals who walked their dog or took a walk that day.

I've never been to Massachusetts, but I live in semi-rural Wisconsin. Judging by the photos I've seen, the winters are similar in intensity and snow accumulation. If the area Maura disappeared from is as isolated as it appears, there is an excellent chance that there were no human footprints in the snow near the crash scene. I've driven many a back road that has feet of perfectly pristine snowfall on either side with no trace of human activity evident in it, other than the marks from where the plow truck pushed it away from the road. It's possible she could have run through the shove-off from the plow truck without leaving foot prints, but it's not likely. That stuff is uneven footing and frozen so solidly that she'd have broken an ankle if she tried to run, much less walk on it for any distance. And if it wasn't frozen solid for whatever reason (compounds used to melt ice, for instance), walking through snow with a temperature of 21 degrees would give her frostbite if she traveled through it for any length of time. Frostbite is initially very painful and will eventually numb the affected areas, both of which would slow her progress tremendously. I've lived through 40 winters here in the frozen tundra and am a registered nurse so I feel like I can weigh in with a pretty solid explanation on this. Hopefully I'm not coming off as argumentative. Ruminations on cold weather aside, none of it makes me any more certain what happened to Maura that night. "Abducted by aliens" is beginning to sound like a relatively plausible explanation for her disappearance.

 

[Lolacat]

Out of interest who is convinced that Maura is still alive? Could you provide reasons? I sincerely want to be convinced.

Reasons I think she could be alive:

1. She packed up her dorm and took off without telling anyone. Working from sheer logic- why do you pack up all your belongings?- because you are planning to leave somewhere.

2. There is no hint of foul play at the 2nd crash scene. As far as we know, she left the scene voluntarily and the speed at which she left indicates to me she knew EXACTLY where she was heading. Plus- we have the sighting of RF (which may, or may not be reliable).

3. It is not out of the realms of possibility for people to just disappear into the ether and start a new life. Its not as difficult as people think it is and its happened on more than one occasion (there have even been cases of people using their own SS number and one joining the army whilst being registered as a *missing person*).

4. She had motivation. We know her family was rigid and controlling. We know they like to portray Maura as the "all American girl" and seem to prefer this fake version of Maura to the *real* Maura, the human Maura- faults and all.

5. She was emotionally unstable. We know she was secretive and kept her cards close to her chest. We also know she was struggling with some emotional issues and dysfunctional coping methods- bulimia, stealing, drinking. This indicates to me a person who feels out of control of their life and more than a little unhappy.

Reasons I dont think she ran away: (ironically, some of these reasons are the same as above lol).

1. She packed up her belongings- why would she do this if she planned to run away without a trace?- its a huge sign to people of her intention to go. Why would she have conducted those internet searches for places to stay on her computer?- again, thats a dead giveaway of her intentions.

2. Why did she use her own, unreliable car and why was she drinking? if you are trying execute a mysterious *disappearance* it seems more than a bit unwise to do it in your car which someone is bound to find and why drink?- this kind of planning calls for a clear head. Drinking= sloppy mistakes

3. If her family were truly *that* unbearable then why did she see her father regularly?- by all accounts she spent a lot of time with her father- doesnt seem like something you would do if your relationship was that fractured.

4. Was Maura really brave enough to start a new life? she was young and she had emotional issues- its a very radical action to take and it will involve a life of running and covering your tracks. Was Maura really up for that forever?

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Fireweed]

2. Why did she use her own, unreliable car and why was she drinking? if you are trying execute a mysterious *disappearance* it seems more than a bit unwise to do it in your car which someone is bound to find and why drink?- this kind of planning calls for a clear head. Drinking= sloppy mistakes

We do not actually know if her car was unreliable. That comes from Fred and no other source, and since he lies about so much, as well as the fact that the car was fine for a three hour journey, I am going to have to conclude that the car was in acceptable shape.

As to the drinking, once you are reliant on alcohol, you are reliant. Back when I used to drink, I would drink at totally unreasonable times/places. If it was after 6 pm, then you bet I had a drink.

 

[kytty]

I think that the narrative that Maura's family has put forth depicting her as basically having no problems or issues (acting like her relationship was perfect, acting like the larceny/fraud charges never existed etc) has hampered finding her. (As an aside, I think that same has happened to an extent in the Steven Koecher case).

The truth is that Maura was a very troubled girl who was dealing with enormous pressure from her family. It almost seems that upholding this perfect image of Maura is more important to the family than taking a good hard look at every single thing that had been going on with her, even the uncomfortable things, and figuring out how those things could have played into her disappearance. It's much easier and much more comfortable to direct anger and blame to a 'local dirt bag' than to your missing child.

 

[Lolacat]

We do not actually know if her car was unreliable. That comes from Fred and no other source, and since he lies about so much, as well as the fact that the car was fine for a three hour journey, I am going to have to conclude that the car was in acceptable shape.

As to the drinking, once you are reliant on alcohol, you are reliant. Back when I used to drink, I would drink at totally unreasonable times/places. If it was after 6 pm, then you bet I had a drink.

Yup. This is true. Plus, if she was planning to run away I imagine that would cause her a significant amount of stress- what does she do in stressful situations?- she drinks to get through it.

 

[scoops]

To this day, I still believe that Maura took her own life.

I think plenty of things point that direction without having to make too many leaps.

Fred's first instincts when hearing that Maura's car was found where it was, was that she went up to the white mountains to harm herself.'

Who better than he would have had the insight back then (after spending the entire weekend with her) to know what was going on in her mind.

If Maura was happy-go-lucky that weekend she spent with her dad, going on and on about future plans and getting married and starting an exciting career, then (IMO) Fred would've never even thought for a second that his daughter's car ended up where it did because she wanted to harm herself. ... And yet, it was his first thought.

Maura left her dorm for someone else to find.

You don't leave a personal note on top of boxes for yourself for when you return from a one week vacation. There is no way to explain away that.

Maura emptied her bank account and loaded up on alcohol.
While that in itself doesn't prove anything, it is a stretch of pretty big proportions to try and justify her unloading her bank and loading up with alcohol for some secret (Monday night) party or that she was meeting up with someone to celebrate something.

It's not nearly as big of stretch to look at her actions as someone who doesn't care anymore. They are willing to spend their last cent and they are willing to get extremely wasted.

The book Not Without Peril. Sorry, I just don't buy that it was a coincidence she had that book as she was entering the white mountains.

That book is about death, no matter how you try and color it.


Police/investigators from day one were LED TO BELIEVE that Maura came to their area to do personal harm to herself.

And some 10 years later, they have never provided or tried to argue a different scenario as being more likely concerning Maura.

 

[trenchmouth]

To this day, I still believe that Maura took her own life.

I think plenty of things point that direction without having to make too many leaps.

Fred's first instincts when hearing that Maura's car was found where it was, was that she went up to the white mountains to harm herself.'

Who better than he would have had the insight back then (after spending the entire weekend with her) to know what was going on in her mind.

If Maura was happy-go-lucky that weekend she spent with her dad, going on and on about future plans and getting married and starting an exciting career, then (IMO) Fred would've never even thought for a second that his daughter's car ended up where it did because she wanted to harm herself. ... And yet, it was his first thought.

Maura left her dorm for someone else to find.

You don't leave a personal note on top of boxes for yourself for when you return from a one week vacation. There is no way to explain away that.

Maura emptied her bank account and loaded up on alcohol.
While that in itself doesn't prove anything, it is a stretch of pretty big proportions to try and justify her unloading her bank and loading up with alcohol for some secret (Monday night) party or that she was meeting up with someone to celebrate something.

It's not nearly as big of stretch to look at her actions as someone who doesn't care anymore. They are willing to spend their last cent and they are willing to get extremely wasted.

The book Not Without Peril. Sorry, I just don't buy that it was a coincidence she had that book as she was entering the white mountains.

That book is about death, no matter how you try and color it.


Police/investigators from day one were LED TO BELIEVE that Maura came to their area to do personal harm to herself.

And some 10 years later, they have never provided or tried to argue a different scenario as being more likely concerning Maura.

Bingo, I completely agree. Renner better come up with another wild goose chase soon as it is becoming clearer to me she took her own life as well. Time to move on to another solvable case.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

 

[Gene S.]

Fred's first instincts when hearing that Maura's car was found where it was, was that she went up to the white mountains to harm herself.'

Who better than he would have had the insight back then (after spending the entire weekend with her) to know what was going on in her mind.

This is an excellent point, I think. Fred certainly had knowledge of Maura's state of mind in the days prior to her disappearance. When told that the car had been found, his knee-jerk leap to suicide is very telling.

 

[Fireweed]

I think this is the reason why Fred is so fixated on LE action in the first 36 hours after the crash. Fred feels terrible guilt over what happened to Maura. It is no coincidence that she took off the day after he left. Her encounter that weekend with her father went horribly, horribly wrong. Fred thinks that this whole thing is all his fault, which is why he is so desperate to shift the blame elsewhere. I think that is also why he refuses to entertain any theories that Maura is out there still alive somewhere. Fred subjectively believes that Maura is dead, and despite what he says about "dirtbags", he knows that if she is dead, it was suicide.

 

[Lolacat]

Fred was also the LAST person to speak with Maura on the phone. I wonder what was said. Its not really surprising he is so keen to emphasize that the days before her disappearance "do not matter".

 

[Jerri Blank]

Reasons I think she could be alive:

1. She packed up her dorm and took off without telling anyone. Working from sheer logic- why do you pack up all your belongings?- because you are planning to leave somewhere.

3. It is not out of the realms of possibility for people to just disappear into the ether and start a new life. Its not as difficult as people think it is and its happened on more than one occasion (there have even been cases of people using their own SS number and one joining the army whilst being registered as a *missing person*).

5. She was emotionally unstable. We know she was secretive and kept her cards close to her chest. We also know she was struggling with some emotional issues and dysfunctional coping methods- bulimia, stealing, drinking. This indicates to me a person who feels out of control of their life and more than a little unhappy.

Reasons I dont think she ran away: (ironically, some of these reasons are the same as above lol).

2. Why did she use her own, unreliable car and why was she drinking? if you are trying execute a mysterious *disappearance* it seems more than a bit unwise to do it in your car which someone is bound to find and why drink?- this kind of planning calls for a clear head. Drinking= sloppy mistakes

3. If her family were truly *that* unbearable then why did she see her father regularly?- by all accounts she spent a lot of time with her father- doesnt seem like something you would do if your relationship was that fractured.


Just a few thoughts.

interesting points! random thoughts a few:

alive:
#1. or she knew she was simply not coming back, which is different from leaving.

#3. i agree with this. there are a lot of ways to disappear, but i do think in this case, not having any nest egg to start her off on this new life, she would have needed help, and i have my doubts that someone would keep a secret like that for 10 years.

#5. do we really know any of those things were done as coping mechanisms?

has it been confirmed that at the time of her disappearance, she was purging? i have seen much speculation about that here based on her height/weight ratio but never any confirmation. plenty of people get treatment and do not revert to ED as a way of coping. as for stealing, i have no idea why she stole that CC# before this incident, but i can think of a lot of reasons that do not relate back to coping with dysfunction.

on the alcoholism issue, i really don't think its fair to say she was an alcoholic based on what little info we have. i was never dependent on alcohol in anyway, but when i was 20/21 i could drink far more in one weekend than what maura had with her. and often i did just that. i never drank while driving but i knew plenty of people who did. it was stupid, yes. but people who are 21 can often be counted on to make poor choices like that.

not a runaway:
#2. again, i don't think we can know that she was drunk and/or not clear headed at the time of the crash just because she may have been sipping wine. not condoning drinking while driving but her tolerance may have been high enough that it did not impede her judgment.

#3. it might be if you are dependent on that person for something, emotionally, financially, whatever. my best friend had the most emotionally abusive father i have ever seen, but she still keeps him in her life and talks about him like he didnt terrorize her and her siblings growing up. *shrug* it's hard to know why people respond the way they do in situations like that.

 

[Fireweed]

Jeri, I agree with a lot of what you said. We do not actually know if Maura was an alcoholic or a bulimic. BTW, bulimics are not overly thin. Bulimia and anorexia do not function the same way. Bulimics can be anywhere from underweight to obese. If Maura was thin, it was because she was a distance runner, not from being bulimic. Also, she was 21. Most people are still quite thin at 21, even eating pizza all the time.

I also feel that if Maura was bulimic or alcoholic, then we sometimes get the cause and effect of Maura's problems reversed. Maura was suffering from alcoholism and bulimia because she was overly stressed; she was not stressed because she was suffering from alcoholism and bulimia. Now of course eventually all these things just turn into a never ending cycle, but the stress and anxiety puts the whole thing in motion.

I know I have said here before that I had an ED when I was younger. One of the things that I remember from those times was constantly fantasizing about a different life; about living somewhere else. I think I was not as aware of what I was doing to myself because I was very good at creating m own "escapism" when I needed to. I read later that this is common in bulimics. Again, we do not really know if Maura was bulimic, but if she was then I would not be surprised if she fantasized a lot especially about a different life.

 

[Coffeelover]

Just some random speculation but I was trying to think of reasons why she packed up the dorm room and may have planned to not continue at UofMass. What if the real reason Fred came to see Maura was because he knew she was troubled? Over the weekend he insisted that she take a semester off to straighten herself out before it got worse. A couple of weeks into it, she could still drop out and get her money back. She goes to the dorm party and after a few drinks decides she needs to have it out with Fred. She crashes his car and that's the final straw for Fred. "Pack your things I'm coming back in a few days to get you." Maura needs to get away for a few days to think about her future and how to convince her dad to let her stay at school. Or something like that.

 

[Lolacat]

interesting points! random thoughts a few:

alive:
#1. or she knew she was simply not coming back, which is different from leaving.

#3. i agree with this. there are a lot of ways to disappear, but i do think in this case, not having any nest egg to start her off on this new life, she would have needed help, and i have my doubts that someone would keep a secret like that for 10 years.

#5. do we really know any of those things were done as coping mechanisms?

has it been confirmed that at the time of her disappearance, she was purging? i have seen much speculation about that here based on her height/weight ratio but never any confirmation. plenty of people get treatment and do not revert to ED as a way of coping. as for stealing, i have no idea why she stole that CC# before this incident, but i can think of a lot of reasons that do not relate back to coping with dysfunction.

on the alcoholism issue, i really don't think its fair to say she was an alcoholic based on what little info we have. i was never dependent on alcohol in anyway, but when i was 20/21 i could drink far more in one weekend than what maura had with her. and often i did just that. i never drank while driving but i knew plenty of people who did. it was stupid, yes. but people who are 21 can often be counted on to make poor choices like that.

not a runaway:
#2. again, i don't think we can know that she was drunk and/or not clear headed at the time of the crash just because she may have been sipping wine. not condoning drinking while driving but her tolerance may have been high enough that it did not impede her judgment.

#3. it might be if you are dependent on that person for something, emotionally, financially, whatever. my best friend had the most emotionally abusive father i have ever seen, but she still keeps him in her life and talks about him like he didnt terrorize her and her siblings growing up. *shrug* it's hard to know why people respond the way they do in situations like that.

Jeri- Great post

#1- I agree- it doesnt necessarily mean she was running away, but to me, it does mean she didnt plan to remain at the uni dorm any more- for whatever reason.

#5- I believe all eating disorders to be coping mechanisms for an underlying, more significant problem that hasnt been addressed. Thats just a personal belief from working in psychiatric wards for years. During my degree, I did my 3rd year thesis on eating disorders and personality traits/types. There is a correlation between certain cognitive distortions and EDs- specifically the notion of all or nothing thinking patterns. Eg- everything is seen as either good or bad- there is no in- between. There is a strive for perfection. For EDs this means that if the person eats even a tiny amount of something they "shouldnt" have then the entire day is considered *bad* and that precipitates a binge- after all, may as well just keep going if everything is ruined. Then come the feelings of guilt and loathing which cause the person to purge. The cycle continues. So for me, I see EDs as a symptom of an underlying problem. You fix the underlying thoughts/issues- you ease the symptom- which is the eating disorder. From a psychological point of view, I find it interesting that Fred seems to exhibit very all or nothing thinking, not to mention a strive for perfection.

I dont believe Maura was an alcoholic either. But I think she turned to it in times of stress (again- a coping mechanism). I think many of us have to be honest. If she was chronically abusing it, there would have been signs- eg, grades slipping, people would have expressed concern about her behaviour, etc..

I absolutely agree with your last point. Family dynamics can be very complex and it can take much time and courage to separate yourself from a potentially controlling or abusive parent.

 

[Jane Birch]

The thing that strikes me most of all, that I can't get past, is how oddly "composed" (in both senses of the word) Billy's statements in the article sound — considering that the woman he is supposedly planning to marry has been missing for only a matter of weeks. I mean, consider one of them . . .

“She was a top student, in great shape and, of course, extremely beautiful,'' Rausch said. [end quote].

Really? Is that the kind of thought that came to BR under what might typically be dire emotional circumstances? Sounds like the words of a person who has already moved on, and has placed everything into neat perspective.

Or else, it's the words of a West Point trained Army officer who thinks and communicates very clearly under pressure. Also, bear in mind that when you're wriing a newspaper article, you take out the ums and the uhs and the facial expressions. There's no telling how composed he actually was or wasn't when speaking.