NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[KenShabby]

Or else, it's the words of a West Point trained Army officer who thinks and communicates very clearly under pressure. Also, bear in mind that when you're wriing a newspaper article, you take out the ums and the uhs and the facial expressions. There's no telling how composed he actually was or wasn't when speaking.

@Jane Birch — I don't know why I bother. . . but, I am employed as a communications professional and an editor for a print magazine. I regularly handle other peoples' "ums and the uhs." Regardless of BR's supposed military bearing (which I considered), I still found the statement and word choices curiously detached under the circumstances. (Stressing that part — under the circumstances.) They sound "too composed" to this reader, even from an Army officer — who was, what? All of 21 years old? And, if he was in his Army officer mode when he spoke to the reporter about his missing beloved, one might wonder why.

 

[armywife210]

My husband is a WP grad, a couple of years ahead of BR. I honestly cannot imagine my beloved husband, whom is incredibly loving and affectionate, responding much differently than BR. When I met him he was a year out of WP, and even then he was very matter of fact to "outsiders". The more emotional he is/was inside, the more rehearsed, composed, and down to business he is/was to everyone else. I'm not sure what you are getting at.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[bragi]

My husband is a WP grad, a couple of years ahead of BR. I honestly cannot imagine my beloved husband, whom is incredibly loving and affectionate, responding much differently than BR. When I met him he was a year out of WP, and even then he was very matter of fact to "outsiders". The more emotional he is/was inside, the more rehearsed, composed, and down to business he is/was to everyone else. I'm not sure what you are getting at.

But you _know_ your husband loves you. BR had cheated on her at least once that we know of, and apparently didn't handle recovering from that well.

Thinking from BR's perspective, hearing him use such odd language so very close to the disappearance is very weird. People who are desperate to find people they love do not talk that way.

If someone asked me to describe my _car_, the first thing I'd say was whether I liked it or not -- how I _feel_ about it. I would not say "Well as you know, the Toyota manufacturing process is rock solid and is so streamlined that the car didn't cost much money at all and yet is reliable."

 

[Steleheart]

My husband is a WP grad, a couple of years ahead of BR. I honestly cannot imagine my beloved husband, whom is incredibly loving and affectionate, responding much differently than BR. When I met him he was a year out of WP, and even then he was very matter of fact to "outsiders". The more emotional he is/was inside, the more rehearsed, composed, and down to business he is/was to everyone else. I'm not sure what you are getting at.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

But you _know_ your husband loves you. BR had cheated on her at least once that we know of, and apparently didn't handle recovering from that well.

Thinking from BR's perspective, hearing him use such odd language so very close to the disappearance is very weird. People who are desperate to find people they love do not talk that way.

If someone asked me to describe my _car_, the first thing I'd say was whether I liked it or not -- how I _feel_ about it. I would not say "Well as you know, the Toyota manufacturing process is rock solid and is so streamlined that the car didn't cost much money at all and yet is reliable."

I would respectfully disagree Bragi - men don't first respond to the 'feelings' when confronted with a problem. In fact, quite naturally, our first instinct is to avoid that and get practical - solve the problem. I have been blessed with the gift of empathy and I feel very deeply but still, in a crises I get very technical and I am not military trained. Men have varying degrees of emotional depth but in general, "how I feel" is not the first response 'for most men'.

MOO

 

[Jmoose]

I recently read an article about people disappearing in the White Mountains and their remains being found many years later.

When I think about this from the perspective of the mountains, my thought process goes like this: "When people go missing in the White Mountains, what does that usually mean?" The answer is obvious: They die. It's true that it wasn't that cold out, but again if you think from the perspective of the mountains, you can ask "What does the temperature hovering around freezing mean? What does it mean for people missing in the mountains?" The answer I come up with is: things freeze, thaw, and things that may look frozen will give way. This is a pretty dangerous situation for someone lost, desperate, impaired and in the dark.

This thought process crowds everything else about this case out for me. It makes it seem clear to me that Maura is sadly somewhere in the mountains and we won't find out where for years.

The consumption of alcohol, if she did so, will make the body colder, faster. She may well have died of exposure-I think she certainly could have gone to hide in the woods, and fallen in the dark. This seems more likely to me than the possibility that she encountered a bad guy on that road. She was in the process of making bad decisions every which way over the course of time.

 

[bragi]

I would respectfully disagree Bragi - men don't first respond to the 'feelings' when confronted with a problem. In fact, quite naturally, our first instinct is to avoid that and get practical - solve the problem. I have been blessed with the gift of empathy and I feel very deeply but still, in a crises I get very technical and I am not military trained. Men have varying degrees of emotional depth but in general, "how I feel" is not the first response 'for most men'.

I am a man, and while I can relate to wanting to fix serious problems when they arise, if anyone in my family disappeared I would become unhinged. This is how people act when someone they care about goes missing and they weren't involved. You don't have to believe me, though; look into how parents and other family members (male or female) react in the days after their children go missing. Look at how Molly Bish's brother reacted: he ran into a lake without even thinking about it.

If someone asked me how I felt about - or even to describe - someone in my family just after they went missing, I'd fall apart.

Being male isn't the only consideration here, either. As I mentioned before, BR could be on the ASD spectrum for all we know.

Edit for jmoose: I don't necessarily think he had anything to do with her disappearing. His interview is a "yellow alert" as it were.

 

[Jmoose]

I am a man, and while I can relate to wanting to fix serious problems when they arise, if anyone in my family disappeared I would become unhinged. This is how people act when someone they care about goes missing and they weren't involved. You don't have to believe me, though; look into how parents and other family members (male or female) react in the days after their children go missing. Look at how Molly Bish's brother reacted: he ran into a lake without even thinking about it.

If someone asked me how I felt about - or even to describe - someone in my family just after they went missing, I'd fall apart.

Being male isn't the only consideration here, either. As I mentioned before, BR could be on the ASD spectrum for all we know.

What is it that you think BR had to do with Maura's disappearance, aside from cheating on her, and possibly otherwise being a bad boyfriend/fiance to her? Personally, I think he just feels guilty about his part in sending her running into the White Mountains, but nothing else.

 

[bragi]

The consumption of alcohol, if she did so, will make the body colder, faster. She may well have died of exposure-I think she certainly could have gone to hide in the woods, and fallen in the dark. This seems more likely to me than the possibility that she encountered a bad guy on that road. She was in the process of making bad decisions every which way over the course of time.

Additionally, in my opinion people don't realize how quickly things can become dangerous in the wilderness. If Maura didn't orient herself before running into the woods and then got lost, that may well have been enough to doom her. Or if she kept going in the direction the dog tracked her, she could have wound up in that river and that would be that. Heat-tracking cameras wouldn't help in that case.

 

[Jerri Blank]

I am a man, and while I can relate to wanting to fix serious problems when they arise, if anyone in my family disappeared I would become unhinged. This is how people act when someone they care about goes missing and they weren't involved. You don't have to believe me, though; look into how parents and other family members (male or female) react in the days after their children go missing. Look at how Molly Bish's brother reacted: he ran into a lake without even thinking about it.

If someone asked me how I felt about - or even to describe - someone in my family just after they went missing, I'd fall apart.

Being male isn't the only consideration here, either. As I mentioned before, BR could be on the ASD spectrum for all we know.

Edit for jmoose: I don't necessarily think he had anything to do with her disappearing. His interview is a "yellow alert" as it were.

i have to disagree with this. have you ever had a family member disappear? i have and i can tell you that in my case, in the weeks before we knew where he was and what had happened, everyone in my family reacted very differently - and i assure you none of us had anything to do with his disappearance. in a situation where there is so much uncertainty about what's going on, people may react differently depending on what they choose to believe is actually happening, how they have been trained to handle emotions or stress, and what their role in the relationship dynamic usually is (ie are they the rock? the clown? the comforter?). in my case i was internally a mess, but took on the role of eternal optimist for the benefit of other family members. they thought i handled the whole things amazingly. they didnt know i spent most nights crying myself to sleep. just one person's take on this!

not defending BR really. i agree with many that that relationship was painted in a very inaccurate light.

 

[scoops]

Additionally, in my opinion people don't realize how quickly things can become dangerous in the wilderness. If Maura didn't orient herself before running into the woods and then got lost, that may well have been enough to doom her. Or if she kept going in the direction the dog tracked her, she could have wound up in that river and that would be that. Heat-tracking cameras wouldn't help in that case.

Maura was far from a novice when it came to hiking (as I understand it)

I think she also knew about every story detailed in that book about the white mountains that she had.

That is another reason, why I lean to more of a intentional death as opposed to accidental.

 

[Jerri Blank]

Additionally, in my opinion people don't realize how quickly things can become dangerous in the wilderness. If Maura didn't orient herself before running into the woods and then got lost, that may well have been enough to doom her. Or if she kept going in the direction the dog tracked her, she could have wound up in that river and that would be that. Heat-tracking cameras wouldn't help in that case.

this i can def agree with! and i personally feel it is the most likely explanation of what happened to MM.

 

[Vox_Veritas_JT]

I must confess the more I consider the case, the more I re-read, the more I am convinced of Scoops post about suicide. Everything fits a suicidal pattern. Its very hard to explain the rag as anything but a confused suicidal action if you discount Fred's highly unlikely explanation. And we know Maura liked to drink but buying a box of wine, a bottle of vodka, a bottle of baileys and a bottle of Kalhua is going out in a blaze of glory type drinking, as is drinking red wine while behind the wheel.

I looked at the book 'Not Without Peril' that was found in Maura's car and contrary to what others have said the book is completely about death. Every single chapter details a death on the mountain range, coincidentally the exact mountain range Maura was heading toward. The book mentions that some remains have never been recovered. I do believe this book is a strong indication of Maura's state of mind that night. This is further strengthened for me by Maura only taking the alcohol while disregarding everything else when she left the scene. It indicates that Maura does not see a future for herself.

With the woman witnessing the red truck I cannot totally discount an abduction (after Maura flags the vehicle down for a ride) but at the same time I have the strong impression that Maura was running away from all people, from humanity. I'm not sure Maura wanted any help from anyone that night and I don't see her being abducted by force at that scene. Abduction is a very unlikely possibility for me now. I think Maura was determined to accomplish something that night and, sadly, I believe she succeeded.

By the way could I ask someone what number Ammonoosuc Road it was that Maura vanished? (I am using Google Earth so any info I can use in conjunction with this would be well appreciated - Many thanks)

I am searching maps for the bend and I am having trouble pinpointing the location. To be fair to Maura that does look like an incredibly difficult area to drive at night.

 

[Steleheart]

I must confess the more I consider the case, the more I re-read, the more I am convinced of Scoops post about suicide. Everything fits a suicidal pattern. Its very hard to explain the rag as anything but a confused suicidal action if you discount Fred's highly unlikely explanation. And we know Maura liked to drink but buying a box of wine, a bottle of vodka, a bottle of baileys and a bottle of Kalhua is going out in a blaze of glory type drinking, as is drinking red wine while behind the wheel.

I looked at the book 'Not Without Peril' that was found in Maura's car and contrary to what others have said the book is completely about death. Every single chapter details a death on the mountain range, coincidentally the exact mountain range Maura was heading toward. The book mentions that some remains have never been recovered. I do believe this book is a strong indication of Maura's state of mind that night. This is further strengthened for me by Maura only taking the alcohol while disregarding everything else when she left the scene. It indicates that Maura does not see a future for herself.

With the woman witnessing the red truck I cannot totally discount an abduction (after Maura flags the vehicle down for a ride) but at the same time I have the strong impression that Maura was running away from all people, from humanity. I'm not sure Maura wanted any help from anyone that night and I don't see her being abducted by force at that scene. Abduction is a very unlikely possibility for me now. I think Maura was determined to accomplish something that night and, sadly, I believe she succeeded.

By the way could I ask someone what number Ammonoosuc Road it was that Maura vanished? (I am using Google Earth so any info I can use in conjunction with this would be well appreciated - Many thanks)

I am searching maps for the bend and I am having trouble pinpointing the location. To be fair to Maura that does look like an incredibly difficult area to drive at night.

The tree is at

275-303 Wild Ammonoosuc Rd., Woodsville, NH 03785 on google maps. Just after "The weathered Barn"

 

[Steleheart]

I am a man, and while I can relate to wanting to fix serious problems when they arise, if anyone in my family disappeared I would become unhinged. This is how people act when someone they care about goes missing and they weren't involved. You don't have to believe me, though; look into how parents and other family members (male or female) react in the days after their children go missing. Look at how Molly Bish's brother reacted: he ran into a lake without even thinking about it.

If someone asked me how I felt about - or even to describe - someone in my family just after they went missing, I'd fall apart.

Being male isn't the only consideration here, either. As I mentioned before, BR could be on the ASD spectrum for all we know.

Edit for jmoose: I don't necessarily think he had anything to do with her disappearing. His interview is a "yellow alert" as it were.

I think you misunderstood me. "If someone asked me to describe my _car_, the first thing I'd say was" that it's a black 6 cylinder Ford Escape with traction lock, not whether I liked it or not. So my point was that men have different depths of emotion and to generalize that if someone gets stoic as a way to avoid emotion, that is insufficient reason to raise suspicions IMO.

I am not questioning anyone's gender or invalidating anyone's personal response. You go to feelings, I go to solutions He goes to her value as a person. No one can say how any specific person should react.
I see a case I follow where the mother of a missing child has not shown enough emotion in the minds of some and some very cruel things have been said about her guilt simply based on their own interpretation of how she should react in public.

 

[KenShabby]

What is it that you think BR had to do with Maura's disappearance, aside from cheating on her, and possibly otherwise being a bad boyfriend/fiance to her? Personally, I think he just feels guilty about his part in sending her running into the White Mountains, but nothing else.

I don't think that we're suggesting that BR had any hand in MM's disappearance. (I was the poster who pointed out what struck me personally as oddly detached-sound statements that BR made to the reporter in that old story.) To me, those statements seemed like more examples of the unwillingness of the people closest to Maura to reveal anything substantial and personal about what was going on with her. (And, not to beat a dead horse but, heck — If my fiance had just gone missing under unsettling circumstances, I doubt that I would tell a reporter that "time with her was time well spent." There's something just off about such a statement; it sounded like he was already long over her — and maybe he was.

And incidentally, for the benefit of the poster who presumed to speak for all males, I too am a man. I've dealt with and solved my share of crises in a direct, practical, and effective manner. But in a situation like the one we're discussing, in addition to becoming a sergeant and leading the troops, I'm also reflecting on the circumstance of my beloved being missing, not summing up her charming and admirable surface qualities. Those latter comments reveal nothing, nor do they lead to a "solution," if that's what you're trying to achieve.

 

[Jmoose]

Additionally, in my opinion people don't realize how quickly things can become dangerous in the wilderness. If Maura didn't orient herself before running into the woods and then got lost, that may well have been enough to doom her. Or if she kept going in the direction the dog tracked her, she could have wound up in that river and that would be that. Heat-tracking cameras wouldn't help in that case.

I agree with all of this

 

[Jmoose]

I don't think that we're suggesting that BR had any hand in MM's disappearance. (I was the poster who pointed out what struck me personally as oddly detached-sound statements that BR made to the reporter in that old story.) To me, those statements seemed like more examples of the unwillingness of the people closest to Maura to reveal anything substantial and personal about what was going on with her. (And, not to beat a dead horse but, heck — If my fiance had just gone missing under unsettling circumstances, I doubt that I would tell a reporter that "time with her was time well spent." There's something just off about such a statement; it sounded like he was already long over her — and maybe he was.

And incidentally, for the benefit of the poster who presumed to speak for all males, I too am a man. I've dealt with and solved my share of crises in a direct, practical, and effective manner. But in a situation like the one we're discussing, in addition to becoming a sergeant and leading the troops, I'm also reflecting on the circumstance of my beloved being missing, not summing up her charming and admirable surface qualities. Those latter comments reveal nothing, nor do they lead to a "solution," if that's what you're trying to achieve.

Ok-that's more like it. I agree that what BR sounded like was a man who was "over" Maura. She definitely short circuited over something-this may be it, although I'm not sure any relationship in her universe was a truly stable one.

 

[Fireweed]

I always thought that Billy came across as being slightly disinterested in the whole affair. Supposedly this woman was his future wife, but from all the things I have read where he is quoted, he does not appear to have a very strong bond with her.

Think of it this way: there was always some hope that Maura just ran away because she was troubled. Wouldn't having her boyfriend emotionally and directly appeal to Maura make sense in that situation? I don't get it. His behavior was abnormal to me. He was supposedly so in love with Maura, that he was going to marry her. Where is his anger and his sadness? BTW, when talking about Maura, does he ever use the pronoun "we"?

 

[Captain_Khan]

Apart from that one apparent emotional breakdown at work, has there been any other evidence regarding Maura’s mental health/emotional state before she went missing? I know that episode is often quoted as indicating she was suicidal, but apart from that and the ambiguous comment from Fred about Maura being found “drunk and naked up there [in the mountains]”, is there any other evidence she wanted to harm herself? Any statements from friends, etc?

According to AFSP, 90% of all suicides have a diagnosable mental illness* at the time of death. Obviously, that indicates 10% do not – but is there any evidence that Maura was mentally ill?

I guess pathological lying would come under ‘mental illness’, but we only have clear evidence of one outright lie – the death in the family email, which I’m not sure would count as pathological.

Thanks in advance guys.

*http://theovernight.donordrive.com/?fuseaction=cms.page&id=1034

 

[Lolacat]

Apart from that one apparent emotional breakdown at work, has there been any other evidence regarding Maura’s mental health/emotional state before she went missing? I know that episode is often quoted as indicating she was suicidal, but apart from that and the ambiguous comment from Fred about Maura being found “drunk and naked up there [in the mountains]”, is there any other evidence she wanted to harm herself? Any statements from friends, etc?

According to AFSP, 90% of all suicides have a diagnosable mental illness* at the time of death. Obviously, that indicates 10% do not – but is there any evidence that Maura was mentally ill?

I guess pathological lying would come under ‘mental illness’, but we only have clear evidence of one outright lie – the death in the family email, which I’m not sure would count as pathological.

Thanks in advance guys.

*http://theovernight.donordrive.com/?fuseaction=cms.page&id=1034

I would suggest that she was engaging in dysfunctional coping methods but in terms of an actual mental health diagnosis- there doesnt seem to be any evidence of that (that we know of). In my experience of working in psych, there are usually always signs before someone commits suicide. But, sometimes the signs can be so subtle that family/friends only recognise them afterwards, with the benefit of hindsight (or, the family are in deep denial). If maura was suicidal, my guess is that it was triggered by some kind of big crisis in the days prior to her disappearance. Her friends have stated that she was very secretive about her life and kept it very compartmentalised so its very possible she was suicidal and noone knew about it.