NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Fireweed]

You know something I think we should keep in mind is that committing suicide is not exactly.something that makes much sense from the start. I wonder how many people who kill themselves in the evening went to work that.day? did they eat that day? most suicides are more spontaneous that we know. one reason I'm not sold on the suicide theory is that Maura planned too much.

 

[gnomony]

I would really like opinions on Maura hiding the Coke bottle under her car as it relates to her state of mind following the crash. Maura took steps to hide the evidence of her drinking. Doesn't this imply that she is afraid of the legal consequences of this crash? If she didn't want it to be found, and she hid it under the car, she must have thought there was a possibility that she could return to the car before it was discovered. If she thought that hiding it under her car was better than removing it from the scene, doesn't this mean she feared that she would be caught carrying this bottle?

This is important, it speaks against suicidal thinking on Maura's part. If Maura was not suicidal at the time she hid this bottle, isn't it less likely that she was suicidal before this accident ever occurred?

I appreciate your logic, but I'm not sure logic is a very trustworthy guide in determining what happened immediately after the accident. Many, many drivers are physically okay after an accident, but mentally rattled and given to odd behavior. It's probably safe to say that MM wasn't engaged in calm and rational decision-making in the moments after the crash.

 

[carpanthers]

You know something I think we should keep in mind is that committing suicide is not exactly.something that makes much sense from the start. I wonder how many people who kill themselves in the evening went to work that.day? did they eat that day? most suicides are more spontaneous that we know. one reason I'm not sold on the suicide theory is that Maura planned too much.

We know that Maura planned to eat. Didn't she purchase snacks? I think she did. If I'm remembering correctly, the description of these snacks made it sound like they were just chips and stuff. If she planned to kill herself before she went to New Hampshire, why didn't she get something better for what would probably be her last meal?

This also means she wasn't too upset to eat.

 

[carpanthers]

I appreciate your logic, but I'm not sure logic is a very trustworthy guide in determining what happened immediately after the accident. Many, many drivers are physically okay after an accident, but mentally rattled and given to odd behavior. It's probably safe to say that MM wasn't engaged in calm and rational decision-making in the moments after the crash.

I am not contending that we should use logic to eliminate suicide as a possibility. I am contending that suicide has been represented as a far more likely possibility on this board, and that is just not the case. Suicide is as likely as anything else, but it is not more likely. It is not something that we know.

We don't know what her thoughts were. We only know what her behavior was. And her behavior speaks against suicide.

And I disagree about Maura's rational decision-making. Placing the bottle under the car is a very deliberate action based on what she rationally presumed would help her avoid a DUI. Placing the bottle under the car shows that she was thinking clearly after this crash.

 

[DayLea]

Could it (the Coke bottle situation) be just as simple as, she had it in her hand when she saw the bus driver approaching and ditched it fast? I mean, it's a pretty terrible hiding spot.

ETA: If we assume she was thinking rationally, I just don't see how she would believe the bottle wouldn't be found. She must have known they'd be towing the car?

ETA 2: Unless she really was drunk this time around, and using drunk-logic.

 

[carpanthers]

Could it (the Coke bottle situation) be just as simple as, she had it in her hand when she saw the bus driver approaching and ditched it fast? I mean, it's a pretty terrible hiding spot.

Sure, but why hide it at all? She doesn't want the alcohol to be discovered. Regardless of who was in the vicinity, hiding the alcohol indicates that she was specifically fearful of the consequences of driving with this open container. Why ditch it at all if she never thought she would live to see consequences?

It's only a terrible hiding spot if she is not able to return to the car before it is removed from the road. It was not discovered until the car was moved.

Also, I believe that when Butch Atwood arrived on the scene, she was still behind the wheel of the vehicle. This means she hid the bottle after he had left.

 

[DayLea]

Sure, but why hide it at all? She doesn't want the alcohol to be discovered. Regardless of who was in the vicinity, hiding the alcohol indicates that she was specifically fearful of the consequences of driving with this open container. Why ditch it at all if she never thought she would live to see consequences?

It's only a terrible hiding spot if she is not able to return to the car before it is removed from the road. It was not discovered until the car was moved.

Also, I believe that when Butch Atwood arrived on the scene, she was still behind the wheel of the vehicle. This means she hid the bottle after he had left.

BBM
Ah, okay, I did not know this.

Well, why wouldn't she take the bottle with her then, if she was so concerned? It wasn't even really an open container...it was a Coke bottle...heck, why not just chuck it off to the side of the road? Why leave it right at the scene? I'm still leaning toward drunk-logic. (I ETA'd my last post before you replied carpanthers, sorry).

 

[Ricochet]

I do think that explaining the actions of a suicidal person is very convoluted. I recall reading an article where they talked about how it was not uncommon for people who commit suicide to seem happy for a change in the days before their suicide. They are happy because at long last they have a solution to their problems. My own opinion is that maura was both suicidal and not suicidal. I think she was wavering greatly about what the solution to her problems should be.

I can only speak for myself, but I think more people are like me than not. My last suicide attempt was in April 2008. The mindset isn't "I want to die just because" or "I've got nothing better to do today so i think I'll kill myself" it's "I want to live, but life has given me situation that I can't cope with and death is a better alternative to being in a situation where I can't cope or see a way out". It has NOTHING to do with us being selfish or not thinking about others because we do. It has to do with being in a situation that we can't see anyway out of and feeling hopeless with no other options.

I'll try my best to explain. It begins when a person comes to the conclusion that if X were to happen there'd be no other alternative than suicide. At that point methods of suicide are considered until one is chosen that their comfortable with. It stays comfortably in the back of their mind because that's the plan should X happen. This process can take place days, weeks, months and even years before a suicide. When X happens or something happens that would trigger that plan you disassociate and you go through the motions carrying out the act. At this point there is no seeking help or talking to anyone about problems because it's a very robotic state (at least for me).

People can be happy and seem normal (going through motions) before a suicide because the stress has been relieved.

I can see how Maura could romanticize the book. To die a death like one in the book. To walk those same steps as someone else who died. While warped it's comforting.

I can see how the NEED to get the car back to her dad in the middle of the night and the first accident could be related to intense anxiety. Assuming her anxiety was really intense not getting the car back to her dad could make her anxiety worse. It can also be hard to make simple decisions when it comes to driving. She could be physically tired and appear tired to Kate, but her mind could be wide awake with racing thoughts.

We're chameleons we show you what you want to see. The only people that could probably answer how the "real" Maura really was are those family members that lived with her and could see the behavior over the course of a long time.

I'm not saying what I wrote applies to Maura or that she was suicidal. I don't know whether she was or not, but there are things that I can relate to.

 

[carpanthers]

BBM
Ah, okay, I did not know this.

Well, why wouldn't she take the bottle with her then, if she was so concerned? It wasn't even really an open container...it was a Coke bottle...heck, why not just chuck it off to the side of the road? Why leave it right at the scene? I'm still leaning toward drunk-logic. (I ETA'd my last post before you replied carpanthers, sorry).

Oh no problem about ETA. Her decision to hide the alcohol means she didn't want it to be discovered. She had to choose between:

A. Ditching the alcohol at the scene
and
B. Carrying the alcohol from the scene.

The fact that she chose to leave it at the scene means she thought the alcohol would be better hidden at the scene than on her person. This implies that she is afraid she would be caught carrying it.

Once she decided to leave it at the scene, she had to decide between:
A. Hiding it under her car
Or
B. Throwing it into the woods

If she were planning on leaving the scene of an accident for any period of time, the logical presumption is that police would search for her in the woods near the scene. If she were to throw the bottle into the woods and they found it while searching for the driver of this crash, the presumption would be that she had deliberately hidden this alcohol from the police.

If she chooses to hide it under the car:
A. It may never be discovered if she is able to return to the scene and remove it.
B. She has plausible deniability about hiding the alcohol in the event that it is discovered. She could claim that it had rolled or been kicked underneath the car.

I believe the Coke bottle would have been considered an open container. It is a mixed drink in an unsealed bottle that had originally held another substance. This is why it is important that it be hidden. Maura does not attempt to hide the box of wine, which she could have claimed had burst during the crash. She cannot claim that this crash damaged and unsealed the Coke bottle, as the Coke bottle had clearly been opened and did not contain Coke.

 

[Tssiemer]

The last time I tried to complete suicide, I had moved out of mine and my boyfriends house and moved 2 hours away to gain independence. I signed a 1 year lease in this shoe box apartment and I couldn't find a job and the program I applied for to get my masters in declined me. I thought I had it in the bag. I'd get a job, get my masters and my boyfriend would join me in 12 months. We had been in a long distance relationship before so I thought no sweat. I found out I couldn't have my dog and after a few months without a job or a masters program I ran out of money but didn't want to ask anyone for help because I didn't want to feel like a failure and I knew I was stuck in this situation because of the lease. I was so miserable that I stopped talking to everyone. And my boyfriend called and asked how everything was and I lied said it was great and I'd see him that weekend. I called my mom to tell her how much of a mistake I had made and she pretty much said "you made your bed now lie in it" and that made me feel hopeless. I didn't want to be a burden on anyone and didn't know another way out at the time. So I had decided to take a bunch of Xanax, put the shower curtain down in the tub so I didn't make a mess and cut my wrists. I had called and set up a maintenance request so they would find me and not my mom. I was getting everything ready and out of no where a long lost friend called. It went to voicemail and he called again and again so I answered I took the phone in the bathroom with me, sat in the tub, took the Xanax and listened to my friend talk on the phone about his life since high school and that he had moved away but was going to move back near where I was and he was excited and wanted to get together. I don't remember much after that I guess due to the Xanax but apparently he could tell something was wrong because I was slurring my words and nodding off. He thought I was drunk but then for some reason he kept me on the phone and I just kept talking to him and eventually I just fell asleep. Several hours later the maintenance man showed up and I woke up in the bath tub with the worst headache ever. I had temporarily forgotten what I was doing. I called my friend and asked him what happened and he said I was drunk and passed out. I never told him what happened and we haven't really spoken since. We went to lunch one day and lost touch. But eventually I told my boyfriend and my mom how miserable I was over dinner one night and my boyfriend decided to buy out my lease so I could move back home. Instead of feeling like a failure like I thought I would I felt relief and happy that he cared so much to fix my mess. And now we're married. And I'm in counseling. About 16 months later I had my horrific car accident that has left me with terrible spine and kidney damage for which I am in constant pain and have surgeries but I'm so happy to be alive.

You cannot apply logic to an illogical situation. When you're in your early 20s and there's so much pressure and emotions going on anything can push you over the edge.


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[DayLea]

Ricochet, Tssiemer, thank you for sharing your stories. I'm glad you're still around to share them.

 

[carpanthers]

The last time I tried to complete suicide, I had moved out of mine and my boyfriends house and moved 2 hours away to gain independence. I signed a 1 year lease in this shoe box apartment and I couldn't find a job and the program I applied for to get my masters in declined me. I thought I had it in the bag. I'd get a job, get my masters and my boyfriend would join me in 12 months. We had been in a long distance relationship before so I thought no sweat. I found out I couldn't have my dog and after a few months without a job or a masters program I ran out of money but didn't want to ask anyone for help because I didn't want to feel like a failure and I knew I was stuck in this situation because of the lease. I was so miserable that I stopped talking to everyone. And my boyfriend called and asked how everything was and I lied said it was great and I'd see him that weekend. I called my mom to tell her how much of a mistake I had made and she pretty much said "you made your bed now lie in it" and that made me feel hopeless. I didn't want to be a burden on anyone and didn't know another way out at the time. So I had decided to take a bunch of Xanax, put the shower curtain down in the tub so I didn't make a mess and cut my wrists. I had called and set up a maintenance request so they would find me and not my mom. I was getting everything ready and out of no where a long lost friend called. It went to voicemail and he called again and again so I answered I took the phone in the bathroom with me, sat in the tub, took the Xanax and listened to my friend talk on the phone about his life since high school and that he had moved away but was going to move back near where I was and he was excited and wanted to get together. I don't remember much after that I guess due to the Xanax but apparently he could tell something was wrong because I was slurring my words and nodding off. He thought I was drunk but then for some reason he kept me on the phone and I just kept talking to him and eventually I just fell asleep. Several hours later the maintenance man showed up and I woke up in the bath tub with the worst headache ever. I had temporarily forgotten what I was doing. I called my friend and asked him what happened and he said I was drunk and passed out. I never told him what happened and we haven't really spoken since. We went to lunch one day and lost touch. But eventually I told my boyfriend and my mom how miserable I was over dinner one night and my boyfriend decided to buy out my lease so I could move back home. Instead of feeling like a failure like I thought I would I felt relief and happy that he cared so much to fix my mess. And now we're married. And I'm in counseling. About 16 months later I had my horrific car accident that has left me with terrible spine and kidney damage for which I am in constant pain and have surgeries but I'm so happy to be alive.

You cannot apply logic to an illogical situation. When you're in your early 20s and there's so much pressure and emotions going on anything can push you over the edge.


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I'm not applying logic to an illogical situation. I'm applying logic to a situation. I'm suggesting that the situation itself implies logical thinking.

You can't apply your own personal experiences to prove another person's state of mind. I empathize with your situation, and I understand that you can relate to Maura. Many people on this board have experienced suicidal thoughts, and feel they can relate to Maura. Many are former substance abusers who feel that they can relate to Maura. Many on this board went to UMass and feel like they can relate relate to Maura. There are hikers, there are runners, there are people who experienced tumultuous times in their twenties. They feel that they can relate to Maura.

Isn't applying logic to known facts a better way to discover truths than applying our own patterns of thought and personal, emotional experiences? Why should we constrain ourselves to speculating about Maura's state of mind instead of asking ourselves what it is that her behavior indicates?

I think everybody on this board can relate to Maura. This is why so many people are attracted to her case. We often think that our personal knowledge and experience gives us some insight into her mindset, because we can relate to her behavior or experiences. But no matter what things we happen to share in common with Maura, we aren't her. We can't jump to conclusions about Maura's state of mind just because we relate to her.

 

[Tssiemer]

I see what you're saying. I really enjoy your theories and knowledge about this case. Maybe I should not have said "you" I meant in general.


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[carpanthers]

I see what you're saying. I really enjoy your theories and knowledge about this case. Maybe I should not have said "you" I meant in general.


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Thank you. I'm not offended that you said 'you,' and I didn't take it personally. I just wanted to make the argument in favor of logic in general.

 

[carpanthers]

I am not arguing in these posts that Maura didn't commit suicide. I am not saying that she didn't walk ten feet up the road and immediately decide to kill herself. I am arguing that the last thing that we know for certain she did is hide this open container. This is the final moment that we know for certain what her behavior was. And her behavior indicates, that in the last moments we knew her to be alive on this earth, Maura was keeping her options open.

 

[sandcastle]

How do we know she hide the Coke bottle? What if the bottle slipped out of her hand and rolled under the car? The car is not that high off the ground and she would have had to try to fish out if that where the case. Why not just leave it in the car? Or for that matter just throw it into the woods? And if the story about the rag is true, why did she do that? Sound more likely that Maura wasn't thinking to clearly immediately after she crashed her car. The last thing we can assume she did before walking away was locking her car.

You do make some good points, Carpanthers.

 

[carpanthers]

How do we know she hide the Coke bottle? What if the bottle slipped out of her hand and rolled under the car? The car is not that high off the ground and she would have had to try to fish out if that where the case. Why not just leave it in the car? Or for that matter just throw it into the woods? And if the story about the rag is true, why did she do that? Sound more likely that Maura wasn't thinking to clearly immediately after she crashed her car. The last thing we can assume she did before walking away was locking her car.

You do make some good points, Carpanthers.

Butch Atwood didn't tell us he saw a bottle in her hand. He is the one who identified her from her picture. He said she was shivering. He spoke to her about AAA. He was looking at her for a significant period of time. Why didn't he ever tell us about the bottle of red Coke in her hand? Why would somebody refill an empty plastic bottle with a substance other than alcohol? If this container doesn't contain two liquids that needed to be mixed, why isn't it in its original container? I think Butch Atwood would have identified this as a strange circumstance. He never thought it would be valuable, suffering years of suspicion and two polygraph tests, to tell us that Maura had this suspicious bottle? Wouldn't this make him appear more innocent? Wouldn't this make it appear like a girl who voluntarily left the scene of a DUI crash, rather than a man who abducted her for nefarious purposes and killed her on his bus? He would have told us if Maura had this bottle in her hand. When he saw her, the bottle was somewhere else.

When Butch Atwood sees her, before she ever gets out of the car, she does not have the bottle in her hand. This means that after Butch leaves, she must deliberately put the bottle in her hand. This means she hid it.

 

[carpanthers]

How do we know she hide the Coke bottle? What if the bottle slipped out of her hand and rolled under the car? The car is not that high off the ground and she would have had to try to fish out if that where the case. Why not just leave it in the car? Or for that matter just throw it into the woods? And if the story about the rag is true, why did she do that? Sound more likely that Maura wasn't thinking to clearly immediately after she crashed her car. The last thing we can assume she did before walking away was locking her car.

You do make some good points, Carpanthers.

Why should we assume that she didn't lock the car before she put the bottle underneath it? Even if these events were contemporaneous, they do not imply the same things. Locking your car is normal, it can be habitual. Hiding bottles under your car is not normal, it speaks to intent.

 

[carpanthers]

By the way, I just want to say that this is why I joined websleuths. Before today, I had never considered any of these questions myself.

It was Fireweed who first raised the issue of how the specific types of alcohol relate to potential methods of suicide. I never gave this much thought because they always appeared to me like entertainment alcohol, not suicide alcohol.

Then DayLea raised the issue of the bus driver. This made me think about how and when Butch Atwood found her at the scene.

Then sandcastle raised the issue of how we know that the bottle being under the car was not an accident. Thanks to DayLea, I was still thinking about Butch Atwood.

Seriously, thanks everyone for some really great posts.

 

[CanManEh]

I think its BS that the local police will not release the case files to maura's father . Gimme one good reason why they will not do that its pathetic that Fred has been asking for over 10 years now to review the original case files and they still refuse to give him anything it don't make sence to me What are they hiding ?