NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[teeandcee]

I finally got caught up on the series. I felt so bad for Fred when they were discussing his reaction to Maura crashing his car. I'm sure his reaction to it was typical....anger, exasperation...but he still has to live with that. Poor fella. I hope he gets some type of closure before he dies.

 

[Skigirl]

Equally likely? Nah. Not even close. We have many reasons to believe she didn't go into the woods; at least 10 errors would have had to have been made for Maura to not be traced in the woods.

There were also TWO FEET of snow in the woods. Absolutely awful terrain for hiding out or making any ground.

Just doesn't make sense logically.

What are the ten? I disagree that it doesn't "logically make sense," delightful as that little bit of redundancy is as it rolls off the tongue.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Exactly, Smith is the kind of arrogant, delusional rabble rouser you'll find in any town: chock full of police conspiracies and unfounded vendettas against people. No actual facts and ultimately very self-serving.

Yep. He’s like Jim Mars in that he’s never met a conspiracy theory he didn’t like. Only difference there is that Marrs was a respected (albeit gonzo) journalist and counterculture figure whereas Smith is a disgraced cop who’ll say anything for attention.

Case in point: in the docuseries he flat out accuses former Chief Williams of orchestrating Maura’s disappearance and then, in the next episode, goes all in for Claude Moulton. He’s just throwing stuff at the wall to see what fits and covering every possible base so when this case finally is solved, he can lean back and smugly claim he was right all along.

It’s pure BS artistry. I’d admire it if it weren’t all directed toward stringing along the grieving family of a missing woman. He’s a ghoul, plain and simple - no better than creeps like Alden Olsen or fake psychics like Sylvia Brown, dripping with garish opportunism, all.


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[Caffeine]

Yep. He’s like Jim Mars in that he’s never met a conspiracy theory he didn’t like. Only difference there is that Marrs was a respected (albeit gonzo) journalist and counterculture figure whereas Smith is a disgraced cop who’ll say anything for attention.

Case in point: in the docuseries he flat out accuses former Chief Williams of orchestrating Maura’s disappearance and then, in the next episode, goes all in for Claude Moulton. He’s just throwing stuff at the wall to see what fits and covering every possible base so when this case finally is solved, he can lean back and smugly claim he was right all along.

It’s pure BS artistry. I’d admire it if it weren’t all directed toward stringing along the grieving family of a missing woman. He’s a ghoul, plain and simple - no better than creeps like Alden Olsen or fake psychics like Sylvia Brown, dripping with garish opportunism, all.


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To be fair, Renner does essentially the same thing, but for profit, whereas I feel John genuinely would like to see this resolved for the sake of the family.

Not that I necessarily believe in a police conspiracy but he at least seems to acknowledge there is a strong possibility of foul play from a local as well.

Could the police have handled this better? Absolutely, but faulting them now is kind of a lost cause and them potentially not doing all that they could isn't, at least for me, a sign they are hiding or covering something up.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

To be fair, Renner does essentially the same thing, but for profit, whereas I feel John genuinely would like to see this resolved for the sake of the family.

Not that I necessarily believe in a police conspiracy but he at least seems to acknowledge there is a strong possibility of foul play from a local as well.

Could the police have handled this better? Absolutely, but faulting them now is kind of a lost cause and them potentially not doing all that they could isn't, at least for me, a sign they are hiding or covering something up.

Oh, they’re both pathological in their own way. I’m no fan of James Renner but I can deal with him when I have to.

Sad thing is, Smith, at one time would have been an excellent source. He’s local, had connections, etc. But whatever usefulness he may still have to offer is outweighed by his paranoid bullying and often contradictory ramblings.


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[The Farm]

As I understand it, the road drops right off into the river at certain points. A slip and a tumble and you're in the water.

Yes it does and it has been a few years since I have been by the site. I do not remember the logistics of the road and the river but on a cold February night it is not where I would want to be.
I used to go snowmobiling up there and honestly even though there is that and skiers it is quite different than in the summer. The tourist population does drop which means less people on the roads on a cold winter night.
In other words most people are already inside with their bunny slippers on. It can be desolate as far as traffic and that is why I keep on putting an abduction theory in the back of my mind but not ruling it out completely because who knows wackos are everywhere.

 

[leilarose68]

What are the ten? I disagree that it doesn't "logically make sense," delightful as that little bit of redundancy is as it rolls off the tongue.

Consider the vast number of professionals and trained dogs (perhaps around 35 dogs at least?) that would've had to slip up to miss footprints deep in the snow, her scent and body in an extremely comprehensive search. It just isn't very plausible. The park ranger who headed the search has done this for over a hundred cases and only Maura's and one other case remain unsolved. It's not like these were just neighbors looking for pieces of evidence, these were experts with lots of experience behind them in large numbers thoroughly searching the area via a number of methods.

There is no reason to believe she would've wandered into the woods, hung out in 2 ft of snow and no trace of her would have been detected, least of all footprints.

 

[leilarose68]

In what context are you saying this? Thanks

I'm mainly talking about the police conspiracists; people who say things like 'I've been studying this case for 13 years with John Smith and no one knows what we know.' It's like, you probably know 1/4 of what LE knows because they can't share lots of information! You are forming imperfect theories based on imperfect information. For some people everything is a cover up and it's just unfortunate.

 

[singularity]

What do you make of all the times it has been just luck and the killer had all the odds in his favor? Why would it be so impossible this time?

I never said it was impossible. It's just highly unlikely.

When you factor in all the issues that evening, death by misadventure(walking into the woods) is at the top of the list and then at the bottom of the list is some random killer stumbling upon her at the perfect moment. Even lower than that(MUCH lower) is the conspiracy.

This is one of the cases where the most logical outcome is mentioned the least.

 

[bluesneakers]

I never said it was impossible. It's just highly unlikely.

When you factor in all the issues that evening, death by misadventure(walking into the woods) is at the top of the list and then at the bottom of the list is some random killer stumbling upon her at the perfect moment. Even lower than that(MUCH lower) is the conspiracy.

This is one of the cases where the most logical outcome is mentioned the least.

You didn't answer my questions.

 

[MaggieSky]

I finally got caught up on the series. I felt so bad for Fred when they were discussing his reaction to Maura crashing his car. I'm sure his reaction to it was typical....anger, exasperation...but he still has to live with that. Poor fella. I hope he gets some type of closure before he dies.

I agree Fred looks so broken hearted. I hope the attention on the case gives the family some answers...what torture for them.

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[leilarose68]

I never said it was impossible. It's just highly unlikely.

When you factor in all the issues that evening, death by misadventure(walking into the woods) is at the top of the list and then at the bottom of the list is some random killer stumbling upon her at the perfect moment. Even lower than that(MUCH lower) is the conspiracy.

This is one of the cases where the most logical outcome is mentioned the least.

Just because something is more statistically likely in a certain area doesn't mean it's most likely given the specific known details of a case. Context matters.

 

[Vegas Bride]

It’s been a long time since I’ve looked into this case, but the new tv show has brought me back.

I was hoping there would be something substantial discovered, but while there wasn’t, I do feel it’s helped put some of the rumors and theories more to rest.

I do not believe Maura wandered or ran into the woods and died. With the searches and with the dogs, plus the snow for spotting tracks, something would have been found.

most likely thing to me is, she went walking up the road and did get into a car. She wanted to get away from there and then had intentions later to return after that night was over.
The question has always been, who offered her the ride?

With the missing hour from what it would have taken her to drive, where had she been? Who might she have seen or talked to?
Is it possible someone she had a brief encounter with earlier did drive by and she felt everything would be ok?

I am being honest here saying I took a lot of chances when I was young. I hitchhiked, I accepted rides from strangers, I picked up hitchhikers.
I read the stories here and it’s clear to me how risky I behaved.
At the time, I felt nothing bad could happen to me. When you’re young you know it all and when you meet someone who appears nice and who looks the part of a good person, you don’t think of what they might be hiding.

I understand how Maura would turn down the offer of help from the bus driver, but then accept the offer of a ride from a younger guy who would get her away from there. Some one she would view as being more likely to be understanding if she had been drinking. In the moment, she wanted a friend and not a father figure.

Maura did have some issues she was struggling with, but I think they have been blown up to appear more than they really were. It’s hard for things to not get sensationalized.

Unfortunatly her family has had to deal with so much of this.
I think of my own large family, older siblings and parents. None of us perfect and more than one issue going on within the family at once. I can just imagine the gossip and false theories that might be dreamed up if I had suddenly disappeared when I was young.

With the new coverage, I’m hoping some new information will eventually come forward.

 

[2020]

The Swiftwater Shop is almost exactly 1 mile from the accident site. I'm not sure if they served food back then, but they do now. I've always wondered if she stopped there for gas and a quick bite or to get some snacks.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

The Swiftwater Shop is almost exactly 1 mile from the accident site. I'm not sure if they served food back then, but they do now. I've always wondered if she stopped there for gas and a quick bite or to get some snacks.

That would have been the logical place to gas up given that she had a full tank at the time of the accident.


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[thenotebook]

Why were the police afraid to show the ATM footage until now? It was clearly Maura, and she was alone....not sure what is so controversial about it and why they couldn't have shown it earlier. ???

And what is with KATE not talking to anyone? For gosh sakes, it's been 13 years. Speak up already. She obviously knows something.

I thought they did a wonderful job with the show, even though we didn't get any concrete answers in the end. However, I am convinced now that foul play was involved. Before I was kind of on the fence if she had run away voluntarily.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Why were the police afraid to show the ATM footage until now? It was clearly Maura, and she was alone....not sure what is so controversial about it and why they couldn't have shown it earlier. ???

And what is with KATE not talking to anyone? For gosh sakes, it's been 13 years. Speak up already. She obviously knows something.

I thought they did a wonderful job with the show, even though we didn't get any concrete answers in the end. However, I am convinced now that foul play was involved. Before I was kind of on the fence if she had run away voluntarily.

In a word, the jacket. It wasn’t one that anyone knew she had, let alone was wearing the night she went missing, and would have provided a concrete GOTCHA moment in any future suspect interrogations as well as being utilized to weed out false leads/confessions.

No big conspiracy. No coverup. Just proper procedure by law enforcement in an ongoing criminal investigation.


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[SavageMarkIII]

Do we know for sure that alcohol caused both (or either) of the crashes? I know that seems to be the general consensus but I'm wondering if we know for sure. Was she arrested after the first accident? If she was charged with DUI wouldn't that have meant an automatic suspension of her driver's license? Obviously people drive without a license but I don't remember hearing that she had her license suspended or even that she was charged. I know there was supposedly a bottle of coke with some alcohol in it found in her car and that she bought alcohol on the trip but again, I guess to me that doesn't necessarily mean she was drunk at that moment. I'm not saying she wasn't. Obviously that is a reasonable possibility. I'm just trying to figure out what we know for sure and what is being deduced.

Accident 1 was in Fred's car at 2:00 am in the morning, after the "Dorm Party" (in quotes because nobody seems to want to confirm the party or the guests). If the party really did happen, then the probability that Maura drank at the party is high. So while the accident may not have been 100% caused by drinking, there was snow/ice, could have been speeding etc., it would not be good to be in an accident at that time of morning smelling of alcohol. I can't find the details now, but it seems whatever officer responded just wrote a report and let her go with tow truck driver to Fred's Hotel. I can't remember if she got a ticket or citation.

Added in Edit: I found on Renner's Blog ( no I don't particularly care for how he went about research/investigation, did not like his book True Crime Addict, and I question his motives and theories) where he states he talked to the Hadley Police Officer, who responded to Accident #1. The PO states to Renner that Maura would have been charged with "failure to control vehicle", had she not ended up missing. Renner states this is a misdemeanor. I don't know how local/state laws work in MA, so don't know if Maura would have known this when she left the accident. Also, we don't know how the PO left it with Maura and what he specifically said or indicated to her at the scene of the accident.

At this time she was on probation for the Credit Card fraud. This incident would be removed from her record if she got into no more trouble until probation was up sometime in February 2004. So I guess it depends on how "trouble" would be defined by her probation officer and the court. Also, it would depend on what the responding officer to the accident wrote in the police report.

She had the police report of the accident in the car with her when she left. Then she gets in Accident #2 in NH with open alcohol in her car and now spilled all over the car.

I do believe she would have been in a state of mind where she was concerned with her probation, Accident #1 possibly revoking her probation and ruining her chances at a career in nursing. Then Accident #2 happens and it puts her in panic mode.

 

[marble]

Great analysis SavageMarkill. I think it's possible she had a complete breakdown at that point. I think she may have wanted to just go somewhere to lay down and die at that point. A lot of people have reached some point in the middle of drama/trauma where they just want to disappear forever, but most of them end up walking for hours and coming home when they are feeling slightly more like joining the living again, or laying in a corner of their closet or under a bridge for a while. But in this case my gut feeling is she wandered far off into the woods at some point, laid down, and due to the elements never woke up again. I think she's out there in the woods still, sadly.

 

[SavageMarkIII]

Great analysis SavageMarkill. I think it's possible she had a complete breakdown at that point. I think she may have wanted to just go somewhere to lay down and die at that point. A lot of people have reached some point in the middle of drama/trauma where they just want to disappear forever, but most of them end up walking for hours and coming home when they are feeling slightly more like joining the living again, or laying in a corner of their closet or under a bridge for a while. But in this case my gut feeling is she wandered far off into the woods at some point, laid down, and due to the elements never woke up again. I think she's out there in the woods still, sadly.

All the above was to try to understand her state of mind after Accident #2 in NH. I'm still not sure of her intent/reason for leaving school and MA that day.

MOO, I think the above shows why she left the scene of Accident #2. And I believe she did get in a car with someone to just avoid the police. That is the way your mind works when you panic. Your instinct is everything will be better if I leave here before cops get here. You don't really think about the consequences and that they have your license plate and VIN #.

I agree with others, it doesn't have to be a Serial killer who just happened by. It could have been anyone, but then she met foul play either by the person that picked her up or by someone else wherever they let her out, if it wasn't the driver/other passengers.

But MOO is she definitely left the accident scene (no police or neighbor foul play) and was picked up in a car.