NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[LucyOso]

Yep...this is my exact thoughts on this case.

She's intoxicated and doesn't want to go to jail, has an accident and she had recently had one and isn't going to want to deal with the crap that goes along with that, and as she decides to walk away, a killer drives by in the nick of time to grab this perfect, intoxicated, vulnerable victim?

Not buying it.

It would basically be like a lottery win for this supposed killer. Every little thing, no matter the odds, has to go in his favor.

Just because they searched doesn't mean she isn't there. There are many cases where they didn't find a body in the initial search.

BBM. As a nurse and as a nursing school student a million years ago...Getting in an auto-accident can be scary in terms of graduating. The thing about nursing is, especially old-school, your actions in the community, your morals, and ethics are all taken into consideration during school, after, and as a nurse. This is a profession where you get booted from nursing school if you get in-trouble with the law for something like a MIP. It's rigorous. She had a car accident. Now, in a youngsters mind, this is devastating...like she feared the end of school and her career. I totally see that. She was stressed and making errors in life. This can lead to panic...as a nurse or nursing student, you can't make errors when people's life are on the line. She knew she "lost her edge". So she made up an excuse to take a break from school rather then say she needed a mental health day or two and risk losing her place in school. Seriously, you can't miss clinical hours or you don't pass. Basically...the pressure of school, fear of getting booted, led her down a snowball path resulting in a second car crash.

The thing is...this second crash, involving alcohol, pretty much ended her chances of staying in the nursing program. They'd boot her in most programs. In fact most nurses I know who have had DUIs end up losing their nursing licenses. Most state boards pull a license with any offence that puts the public in jeopardy, shows bad character, etc. Period. I am sure she was well aware of this, thus, had nothing left to lose. I think she wandered off. As a nursing student she would be well aware about hypothermia, alcohol, etc and just found a place to go to sleep. A permanent solution to a temporary crisis. And she will some day be found.

The only thing I could think about the "lottery" chance of random killer picking her up is if the guy had a CB or police radio and got to the scene before the cops did. My thoughts.

 

[Slynns]

I described this case to a friend who knows nothing about it and her first reaction was... maybe that butch guy helped her runaway. He doesn't have to be a killer, he could however have a hand in helping her escape. Young pretty girls get help easily.

 

[Skigirl]

What do you make of all the times it has been just luck and the killer had all the odds in his favor? Why would it be so impossible this time?

Agree, AND odds were already in perfect favor. The only thing that would have to be lucky for the killer is to drive by shortly after the accident. It is not a densely populated area, but it is a major road.


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[MargeGunderson]

Do we know for sure that alcohol caused both (or either) of the crashes? I know that seems to be the general consensus but I'm wondering if we know for sure. Was she arrested after the first accident? If she was charged with DUI wouldn't that have meant an automatic suspension of her driver's license? Obviously people drive without a license but I don't remember hearing that she had her license suspended or even that she was charged. I know there was supposedly a bottle of coke with some alcohol in it found in her car and that she bought alcohol on the trip but again, I guess to me that doesn't necessarily mean she was drunk at that moment. I'm not saying she wasn't. Obviously that is a reasonable possibility. I'm just trying to figure out what we know for sure and what is being deduced.

 

[Lamima]

BBM. As a nurse and as a nursing school student a million years ago...Getting in an auto-accident can be scary in terms of graduating. The thing about nursing is, especially old-school, your actions in the community, your morals, and ethics are all taken into consideration during school, after, and as a nurse. This is a profession where you get booted from nursing school if you get in-trouble with the law for something like a MIP. It's rigorous. She had a car accident. Now, in a youngsters mind, this is devastating...like she feared the end of school and her career. I totally see that. She was stressed and making errors in life. This can lead to panic...as a nurse or nursing student, you can't make errors when people's life are on the line. She knew she "lost her edge". So she made up an excuse to take a break from school rather then say she needed a mental health day or two and risk losing her place in school. Seriously, you can't miss clinical hours or you don't pass. Basically...the pressure of school, fear of getting booted, led her down a snowball path resulting in a second car crash.

The thing is...this second crash, involving alcohol, pretty much ended her chances of staying in the nursing program. They'd boot her in most programs. In fact most nurses I know who have had DUIs end up losing their nursing licenses. Most state boards pull a license with any offence that puts the public in jeopardy, shows bad character, etc. Period. I am sure she was well aware of this, thus, had nothing left to lose. I think she wandered off. As a nursing student she would be well aware about hypothermia, alcohol, etc and just found a place to go to sleep. A permanent solution to a temporary crisis. And she will some day be found.

The only thing I could think about the "lottery" chance of random killer picking her up is if the guy had a CB or police radio and got to the scene before the cops did. My thoughts.

My thoughts too.

 

[Hazelnutty]

Perhaps she was walking away from her accident .And, while walking on a dark road at night was accidently struck by a vehicle. The driver, for whatever reason, did not disclose this info, but instead hid her body in a place that hasn't yet been discovered.

Too many theories for me to contribute another, but there it is.

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[MaggieSky]

I know that search teams can easily miss the people they're looking for, it's happened on many occasions. LE has stated several times that there were no footprints in the snow indicating she even left the road. I also think that scent tracking dogs are pretty dependable in their abilities......which indicates her scent was lost a ways up the road from her car. To me this Probably eliminates the theory that she went and died in the woods. However, anything is possible.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I know that search teams can easily miss the people they're looking for, it's happened on many occasions. LE has stated several times that there were no footprints in the snow indicating she even left the road. I also think that scent tracking dogs are pretty dependable in their abilities......which indicates her scent was lost a ways up the road from her car. To me this Probably eliminates the theory that she went and died in the woods. However, anything is possible.

She may not have had to make footprints to fall into the river. Devil’s advocate.


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[LucyOso]

Do we know for sure that alcohol caused both (or either) of the crashes? I know that seems to be the general consensus but I'm wondering if we know for sure. Was she arrested after the first accident? If she was charged with DUI wouldn't that have meant an automatic suspension of her driver's license? Obviously people drive without a license but I don't remember hearing that she had her license suspended or even that she was charged. I know there was supposedly a bottle of coke with some alcohol in it found in her car and that she bought alcohol on the trip but again, I guess to me that doesn't necessarily mean she was drunk at that moment. I'm not saying she wasn't. Obviously that is a reasonable possibility. I'm just trying to figure out what we know for sure and what is being deduced.

I don’t know what caused the first. I’m just saying the second with alcohol in the car looks bad. It could have been enough for her to just give up. That’s a lot to cope with.

 

[webweaved]

What is the Occam's razor type solution here? I feel like a random passing predator stretches things a bit far tbh.

I guess the simplest answer would be... Maura made plans to 'get away from it all' and after her car accident on the 112 she stumbled off into the woods and succumbed to the elements. If she had been drinking, I think she would be more susceptible to hypothermia?

Jmhoo

First. My opinion originally and gut feeling tells me she was in a really dark place mentally, she may have took sleeping pills and she may have mixed those with alcohol. After the wreck, she wandered further from the accident site than estimated and succumbed to the elements. Websleuths is full of cases where the scent dogs and cadaver dogs searched over and over again--finding nothing. Then, years later, the body is located in the area that was searched previously, either by a random person exploring the woods or HUMAN search volunteers on foot. It's strange, I know, but it happens a lot. Ex: Holly Bobo & Noah Chamberlin--both have threads. There are countless other cases like this.

Second. If the area where she wrecked had no cell service and it's that off the grid, then you can imagine how many people have police scanners or CB radios. This is normal in small towns. People are nosey. Now imagine some unsavory character hears the BOLO on Maura come up on the radio. He could have headed her way and found her halfway down the road. She could have walked right into him. Neighbors started talking and calling about her moments after the accident happened. Word travels fast in these small towns. Just something to think about. A scanner basically announces "Oh hey, there's a young lost girl roaming around out here possibly drunk" - JMO. She would have been so terribly vulnerable and desperate. That may have brought the trouble to her. It's not a killer's lottery, it's just plain, simple, crime of opportunity. Not far fetched, IMO.

 

[avamonroe]

I honestly don't know. I just know that his name is never, ever mentioned whereas Forcier, Moulton, Greg Floyd, the Glynns (aka the Loon Mountain brothers), and every single police officer under the rainbow are everywhere. It's curious. My gut says that on the surface, he's exactly the kind of person Maura might trust enough to accept a ride from.

Again, the police have been very tight-lipped with regard to possible suspects so it'd be easy for the rumor mill to gin up a bunch of nonsense. But unlike some of the aforementioned names, this fellow hasn't been scrutinized to nearly the same extent so if the tests on the wood chips recovered from Claude Moulton rule him out, then this guy should be looked at next.

I wonder if his name is not mentioned, because there is no proof her was involved and people don't want a witchhunt? Forcier was linked in that said he saw someone running matching her description. Moulton was linked to the case with the knife and the A-frame house, Walter Glynn was linked by Renner saying the red truck was tracked back to him, and Floyd has been linked through being friends with McKay (and possibly the hints the old man in Renner's book made about his neighbour, who I am pretty sure is Floyd). But the concrete guy - nothing conclusively linking him.. I haven't found anything pointing to him getting in any trouble with the law either (which is not to say it couldnt' be him)

Sidenote: I have tried to find out more about the Glynns and the Loon Mountain brothers, and as far as I have seen, there is no proof these are 2 and the same - an assertion was made on Renner's blog, after he posted that Walter Glynn was the owner of the red truck (which TBH I am not even sure is true). Did I miss something?

Another sidenote: I am sorry I erroneously told you that Claude is dead - long story is I found some stuff online on Ancestry about death records for a Claude A Moulton, and asked John about it. He confirmed he has passed. However, later it transpired that "That is what I was told by his former girlfriend about two months ago. I just spoke to a female yesterday who has a couple of kids with Claude And she says he is alive and well and driving truck again. He survived his cancer. Seems like the former girlfriend was trying to protect him from being questioned anymore." - and the podcast guys on the Facebook live of Epsiode 5 also said something about Claude not minding people thinking he died. So, just wanted to clairfy

 

[Skigirl]

I know I've been advocating that it's possible that someone picked her up and harmed her, but I, too, think it's equally likely that she died in the woods. As others have said before, there are countless cases in which ground searches have missed whole bodies, not to mention footprints.

It's also not that hard to miss a person temporarily ducking behind something, so that night, they could have been very close to her and missed her, and then, after they left, she could have gone even farther up the road or been abducted at any point during the night or gone into the woods much further away from the crash site than would have been expected.

A real life example of how easy it is to temporarily evade someone happened to me. My neighbor's house is set back on a bit of a hill across the street from mine. One day, in broad daylight, some suspicious men rang my doorbell and then, when they realized I was home, hightailed it up my walkway. I called the police because there had been some recent break-ins. Police came, and unbeknownst to me, my neighbor had a clear line of sight down to what was happening in front of my house: One of the guys had hurried down the street, but the other was still lurking. When the police officer parked in front of my house and got out of her car, the guy ducked behind a car parked in front of my house. When she walked to one side, he crept around to the other. This went on for a few moments, and by the time my neighbor recovered from her surprise enough to call 911 and explain what was happening, the police officer was already heading toward the back of my house -- and the guy had taken off down the street. So Maura could have successfully evaded police right after the accident and then disappeared after that (either into the woods or into a car), much later and/or much further away, than would be possible in the few minutes between the crash and law enforcement's arrival.

 

[MaggieSky]

She may not have had to make footprints to fall into the river. Devil’s advocate.


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How close is the river to the road?

I really don't think we can compare cases like Holly Bobo who was concealed or likely buried in the woods to this case. A little different than someone that has died from elements. She also had a backpack, Yes? Also searchers would have been searching in the snow...which makes colors easier to see. Was it actively snowing that night? Enough to cover her overnight?

It's just a long time not to have found any clothing items or even her backpack. I'm sure many people hunt in those woods. IMO. Of course I don't know the area or even details about the case like some of you do, so take with grain of salt.

Also putting emotion on the case is pointless...we do not know what she was thinking, how intoxicated she was, where she was going. No one can predict that. Work from the facts that we know.

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[Pettibon Junction]

How close is the river to the road?

I really don't think we can compare cases like Holly Bobo who was concealed or likely buried in the woods to this case. A little different than someone that has died from elements. She also had a backpack, Yes? Also searchers would have been searching in the snow...which makes colors easier to see. Was it actively snowing that night? Enough to cover her overnight?

It's just a long time not to have found any clothing items or even her backpack. I'm sure many people hunt in those woods. IMO. Of course I don't know the area or even details about the case like some of you do, so take with grain of salt.

Also putting emotion on the case is pointless...we do not know what she was thinking, how intoxicated she was, where she was going. No one can predict that. Work from the facts that we know.

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As I understand it, the road drops right off into the river at certain points. A slip and a tumble and you're in the water.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

I wonder if his name is not mentioned, because there is no proof her was involved and people don't want a witchhunt? Forcier was linked in that said he saw someone running matching her description. Moulton was linked to the case with the knife and the A-frame house, Walter Glynn was linked by Renner saying the red truck was tracked back to him, and Floyd has been linked through being friends with McKay (and possibly the hints the old man in Renner's book made about his neighbour, who I am pretty sure is Floyd). But the concrete guy - nothing conclusively linking him.. I haven't found anything pointing to him getting in any trouble with the law either (which is not to say it couldnt' be him)

Sidenote: I have tried to find out more about the Glynns and the Loon Mountain brothers, and as far as I have seen, there is no proof these are 2 and the same - an assertion was made on Renner's blog, after he posted that Walter Glynn was the owner of the red truck (which TBH I am not even sure is true). Did I miss something?

Another sidenote: I am sorry I erroneously told you that Claude is dead - long story is I found some stuff online on Ancestry about death records for a Claude A Moulton, and asked John about it. He confirmed he has passed. However, later it transpired that "That is what I was told by his former girlfriend about two months ago. I just spoke to a female yesterday who has a couple of kids with Claude And she says he is alive and well and driving truck again. He survived his cancer. Seems like the former girlfriend was trying to protect him from being questioned anymore." - and the podcast guys on the Facebook live of Epsiode 5 also said something about Claude not minding people thinking he died. So, just wanted to clairfy

Good to know Claude's still alive.

The guy I've mentioned has been named by John Smith, but only in passing. His name is Rich Saffo, Jr.

As far as Walter and Robert Glynn being the Loon Mountain brothers, that's more inference than anything else. (Smith may have confirmed it at one point, though I'm not sure.) Police were interested in two brothers who worked at Loon, and Walter was named by Renner as possibly being the owner of the infamous red truck. Records show the two living together in 2004. I don't know where Robert is now but Walter has since moved to Alaska.

 

[avamonroe]

Good to know Claude's still alive.

The guy I've mentioned has been named by John Smith, but only in passing. His name is Rich Saffo, Jr.

As far as Walter and Robert Glynn being the Loon Mountain brothers, that's more inference than anything else. (Smith may have confirmed it at one point, though I'm not sure.) Police were interested in two brothers who worked at Loon, and Walter was named by Renner as possibly being the owner of the infamous red truck. Records show the two living together in 2004. I don't know where Robert is now but Walter has since moved to Alaska.

Yip, Saffo is who I saw with reference to the concrete too. But I havent found anything worth reporting about him..

Would really be interesting to know if:

1. Robert and Walter worked at Loon.
2. Walter was indeed driving the red truck (I am not 100% in with Renner's "reporting")

 

[MaggieSky]

As I understand it, the road drops right off into the river at certain points. A slip and a tumble and you're in the water.

Ok the river theory I could entertain. This story is maddening is it not?

I just find it hard to believe that a young girl ran like a ninja in the woods, cold, snow, in an area she wasn't familiar with and died there.

I live near a section of the Appalachian Trail and I've hiked some of it. I know what dense woods look like at night. It's really scary. Many of the animals are nocturnal and hunting at night. There are nights I can't see my own hand in front of my face right outside my house. I wouldn't even walk to my mailbox after dark.
I'm sure the snow in her case illuminated somewhat. Still the cold is dangerous, everyone knows that. She had enough of her mind intact to grab some items, put in her backpack, lock her car and take her keys before she took off. I'm sure she was scared and her adrenaline was pumping which sobers you up pretty quickly and kicks in fight or flight....survival skills.

You know what I'm more scared of? Other people. There's always some weirdo roaming at night looking for trouble no matter where you live.

I could see how she would accept a ride from someone that looks "nice".

The red truck is a concern for sure...and this A frame house guy.

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[cutter99]

First. My opinion originally and gut feeling tells me she was in a really dark place mentally, she may have took sleeping pills and she may have mixed those with alcohol. After the wreck, she wandered further from the accident site than estimated and succumbed to the elements. Websleuths is full of cases where the scent dogs and cadaver dogs searched over and over again--finding nothing. Then, years later, the body is located in the area that was searched previously, either by a random person exploring the woods or HUMAN search volunteers on foot. It's strange, I know, but it happens a lot. Ex: Holly Bobo & Noah Chamberlin--both have threads. There are countless other cases like this.

Second. If the area where she wrecked had no cell service and it's that off the grid, then you can imagine how many people have police scanners or CB radios. This is normal in small towns. People are nosey. Now imagine some unsavory character hears the BOLO on Maura come up on the radio. He could have headed her way and found her halfway down the road. She could have walked right into him. Neighbors started talking and calling about her moments after the accident happened. Word travels fast in these small towns. Just something to think about. A scanner basically announces "Oh hey, there's a young lost girl roaming around out here possibly drunk" - JMO. She would have been so terribly vulnerable and desperate. That may have brought the trouble to her. It's not a killer's lottery, it's just plain, simple, crime of opportunity. Not far fetched, IMO.

Excellent post!!!

 

[leilarose68]

I know I've been advocating that it's possible that someone picked her up and harmed her, but I, too, think it's equally likely that she died in the woods. As others have said before, there are countless cases in which ground searches have missed whole bodies, not to mention footprints.

It's also not that hard to miss a person temporarily ducking behind something, so that night, they could have been very close to her and missed her, and then, after they left, she could have gone even farther up the road or been abducted at any point during the night or gone into the woods much further away from the crash site than would have been expected.

A real life example of how easy it is to temporarily evade someone happened to me. My neighbor's house is set back on a bit of a hill across the street from mine. One day, in broad daylight, some suspicious men rang my doorbell and then, when they realized I was home, hightailed it up my walkway. I called the police because there had been some recent break-ins. Police came, and unbeknownst to me, my neighbor had a clear line of sight down to what was happening in front of my house: One of the guys had hurried down the street, but the other was still lurking. When the police officer parked in front of my house and got out of her car, the guy ducked behind a car parked in front of my house. When she walked to one side, he crept around to the other. This went on for a few moments, and by the time my neighbor recovered from her surprise enough to call 911 and explain what was happening, the police officer was already heading toward the back of my house -- and the guy had taken off down the street. So Maura could have successfully evaded police right after the accident and then disappeared after that (either into the woods or into a car), much later and/or much further away, than would be possible in the few minutes between the crash and law enforcement's arrival.

Equally likely? Nah. Not even close. We have many reasons to believe she didn't go into the woods; at least 10 errors would have had to have been made for Maura to not be traced in the woods.

There were also TWO FEET of snow in the woods. Absolutely awful terrain for hiding out or making any ground.

Just doesn't make sense logically.

 

[leilarose68]

Respectfully, that's your opinion. I've personally found Smith to be the equivalent of any number of fantasy-prone personalities I've encountered on message boards regarding true crime: paranoid, rambling, and ultimately nonsensical, chock full of supposed insider-gossip and a grand, overarching theory that he's hard-pressed to present in a logical way (despite dominating discussions with his grandiose sense of superiority)

Worse, I think he's knowingly stringing Fred and the family along. We know Fred Murray distrusts the police and thinks they haven't done enough to find his daughter. John Smith is a former police officer who was dismissed from his duties many years ago and whose family disintegrated in the process. He's using Fred's disdain for local and state law-enforcement as a way to wedge himself into the case and use it as a means to air his grievances and, as a result, there's no way to discuss this case now without having to entertain his paranoid fantasies.

The real question is, is this former carnival barker merely a con artist or does he actually believe in the snake oil he's selling? If it's the former, fine. This is America and a man's gotta make a living somehow (even if it's as a ghoul exploiting the grief of others). If it's the latter, then John Smith has the potential to be a very dangerous man. His adversarial encounter with Tim Westman on the podcast was quite telling, and that he has an open carry permit and an axe to grind is worrisome. It could well be only a matter of time before he hurts someone or himself.

Exactly, Smith is the kind of arrogant, delusional rabble rouser you'll find in any town: chock full of police conspiracies and unfounded vendettas against people. No actual facts and ultimately very self-serving.