NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[doris5]

I'm really wondering if she's actually alive somewhere. The father giving her money, the idea of turning down Atwood in favour of a longer ride... Makes sense to me.


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[Tssiemer]

4 grand is not enough to start a brand new life.


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[doris5]

4 grand is not enough to start a brand new life.


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It's enough to get out of the area...

But yeah, I hear you...


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[JnRyan]

Had Atwood not lived so close to the scene, I'm sure she would have been more likely to consider help from him. But taking refuge with him meant basically sitting there until the police come.

She could have told a stranger a number of things "My car died" or "I hit some ice" either way, if a person was to stop they would already be likely to give her a ride - I doubt much explaining would be necessary. She could have expected a warm place to stay, a phone to use but with the wrong person things could have gone downhill quickly.

I tend to lean more towards that because simply going into the woods to hide would have been foolish, IMO. I mean, one could easily hide out on the edge of the road unseen by police, but going further and further into the dark woods always seemed like an insane decision.

Sure, one could argue she went in there because she was suicidal, but I've never been truly convinced of that. It's possible, but I would think if she was depressed enough she would have sought out any easier way in MA to end her life, instead of planning a trip and then suddenly becoming suicidal after an accident. Again, it's possible but I don't think that is the case here. And the idea this trip was solely based upon suicide, I don't know about that either. She really didn't have anything in her possession that screamed suicide.

We are 12 years into this mystery, it's pretty clear to me that she either somehow was able to conceal her own body, or, more likely to me, that someone else was able to conceal her body.

Sometimes people get away with ghastly crimes, maybe she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Look at the boy from Minnesota...the only thing that solved the case was essentially a confession from the perpetrator. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here.

I'm about 50-50 on whether she ended up with someone who killed her or she ended up in the woods and died of exposure. I really don't believe it was suicide.

I don't know what the extent of her injuries were, but she was drinking. Drinking makes the body more susceptible to the effects of cold - IOW it can make a person more likely to fall victim to hypothermia. One, it impairs judgement. Two, it causes the blood vessels to dilate and thus the body loses heat more quickly. Once hyporthermia sets in, people do strange things - wander aimlessly off the path they are on, remove their clothing and so on. And if they are rescued and live, they may have no memory of doing these things. If she ran from the scene and kept running long enough she would sweat and this adds another heat loss factor against her if she stops running and walks. She was an experienced hiker, but those were planned events. If she ran from the car she might have done so unprepared for the weather. Stress, alcohol, cold. I think she could have easily have wandered off the road a few miles down the road and simply succumbed to the cold.

I was on active duty north of the Arctic Circle and I remember the medical staff giving training sessions and being on the lookout for the signs. I was aware that it could happen and one day while on an additional assignment, I kept getting in and out of a vehicle. Snow would get on my boots and trousers and one time I was in a hurry and I didn't dust off the snow before entering the warm vehicle. It melted and dampened my trousers and that was the beginning of a downward spiral. Going in and out of the vehicle then with wet trousers caused me to be more susceptible to the cold. The cold, snow and wet trousers worked against me. When I got back they had me get out of the wet trousers and boots and wrapped me in blankets. I couldn't control the shaking and I was like that for a few hours. The medical folks said I was right on the edge of hypothermia.

Abduction. Exposure. Suicide, though...I believe it is not very likely.

 

[BritishRacingGreen]

I'm really wondering if she's actually alive somewhere. The father giving her money, the idea of turning down Atwood in favour of a longer ride... Makes sense to me.


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I agree. It IS a possibility that I haven't ruled out because of these things.


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[Ozoner]

I'm about 50-50 on whether she ended up with someone who killed her or she ended up in the woods and died of exposure.

I agree with your reasoning, but I'm more like 75-25 in favor of exposure.

 

[Caffeine]

60% Death by stranger or acquaintance
30% exposure
9% suicide
1% new life, alien abduction etc

 

[McSpy]

So to keep up appearances, he searched for her almost every free moment he had? Every weekend he worked with John Smith and Rick Graves to search for Maura and find leads from locals even though he knew where she was?

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I agree with you. The buying car ruse makes no sense to me.

 

[Captain_Khan]

http://mauramurray.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/simple-glaring-detail.html#comment-form

Does anyone really believe Maura left that day without telling a single other soul where she was going?

I know the quick, easy social-justice-warrior response to this is, "she was a grown woman, why would she have to tell anyone where she was going?"

From Renner's blog.

Firstly, I just want to roll my eyes at Renner using the phrase 'social justice warrior'. He's using that as a way to shut people out of the discussion. Anyone who disagrees with him on that point is now an EVIL SJW! which is just the latest internet bogeyman. Incredibly disappointing he's stooping to that level. "Oh, you don't agree with me? Well you must be a SJW, and EVERYONE HATES THEM! Get 'em, boys!"

Secondly, he's misrepresenting the argument of why she might not have told anyone where she is going. It's not "I'm a strong independant woman who don't need no man/friends to know where I'm going!", like he is presenting it. She could have very deliberately not told people where she was going, in order to keep a secret. Maybe she was concerned someone would try to stop her going, for example. Maybe somebody would insist to come with her, and she didn't want them to. Maybe deep down she knew what she was doing was a bad (or rash) idea, and didn't want to be talked out of it.

He's not thinking in terms of someone who, by all accounts, was in a very rough frame of mind and situation. I have, in the past, been in a very serious situation, and kept my whereabouts quiet while I sorted it.

Thirdly, he is asking women whether they would tell anyone if they were going to take a trip for a days, and they are all saying they would. Well, guess what? If you frame it to them as 'going to take a trip for a few days', then of course they would all tell someone. What do they have to hide? Present it as 'you need to escape a dangerous situation on your uni campus', or 'you need to get a secret abortion', or 'you want to check out other nursing schools in the area without alerting your friends', or 'you ran someone over and need to put distance between you and the site of the crime', or 'you're planning to commit suicide', or 'you're planning to run away with your secret boyfriend', or any of the other many, many possibilities discussed over the course of these threads, and you might see some different answers.

 

[doris5]

http://mauramurray.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/simple-glaring-detail.html#comment-form


From Renner's blog.

Firstly, I just want to roll my eyes at Renner using the phrase 'social justice warrior'. He's using that as a way to shut people out of the discussion. Anyone who disagrees with him on that point is now an EVIL SJW! which is just the latest internet bogeyman. Incredibly disappointing he's stooping to that level. "Oh, you don't agree with me? Well you must be a SJW, and EVERYONE HATES THEM! Get 'em, boys!"

Secondly, he's misrepresenting the argument of why she might not have told anyone where she is going. It's not "I'm a strong independant woman who don't need no man/friends to know where I'm going!", like he is presenting it. She could have very deliberately not told people where she was going, in order to keep a secret. Maybe she was concerned someone would try to stop her going, for example. Maybe somebody would insist to come with her, and she didn't want them to. Maybe deep down she knew what she was doing was a bad (or rash) idea, and didn't want to be talked out of it.

He's not thinking in terms of someone who, by all accounts, was in a very rough frame of mind and situation. I have, in the past, been in a very serious situation, and kept my whereabouts quiet while I sorted it.

Thirdly, he is asking women whether they would tell anyone if they were going to take a trip for a days, and they are all saying they would. Well, guess what? If you frame it to them as 'going to take a trip for a few days', then of course they would all tell someone. What do they have to hide? Present it as 'you need to escape a dangerous situation on your uni campus', or 'you need to get a secret abortion', or 'you want to check out other nursing schools in the area without alerting your friends', or 'you ran someone over and need to put distance between you and the site of the crime', or 'you're planning to commit suicide', or 'you're planning to run away with your secret boyfriend', or any of the other many, many possibilities discussed over the course of these threads, and you might see some different answers.

This renner guy doesn't seem to be taken seriously by many people.

Have any better journalist/writers had a go at this story? I'm new to this case and wouldn't mind looking at a precis of the story...


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[Tssiemer]

I thought John Green was pretty legit. He used to run the blog with Renner right?


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[JnRyan]

http://mauramurray.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/simple-glaring-detail.html#comment-form


From Renner's blog.

Firstly, I just want to roll my eyes at Renner using the phrase 'social justice warrior'. He's using that as a way to shut people out of the discussion. Anyone who disagrees with him on that point is now an EVIL SJW! which is just the latest internet bogeyman. Incredibly disappointing he's stooping to that level. "Oh, you don't agree with me? Well you must be a SJW, and EVERYONE HATES THEM! Get 'em, boys!"

Secondly, he's misrepresenting the argument of why she might not have told anyone where she is going. It's not "I'm a strong independant woman who don't need no man/friends to know where I'm going!", like he is presenting it. She could have very deliberately not told people where she was going, in order to keep a secret. Maybe she was concerned someone would try to stop her going, for example. Maybe somebody would insist to come with her, and she didn't want them to. Maybe deep down she knew what she was doing was a bad (or rash) idea, and didn't want to be talked out of it.

He's not thinking in terms of someone who, by all accounts, was in a very rough frame of mind and situation. I have, in the past, been in a very serious situation, and kept my whereabouts quiet while I sorted it.

Thirdly, he is asking women whether they would tell anyone if they were going to take a trip for a days, and they are all saying they would. Well, guess what? If you frame it to them as 'going to take a trip for a few days', then of course they would all tell someone. What do they have to hide? Present it as 'you need to escape a dangerous situation on your uni campus', or 'you need to get a secret abortion', or 'you want to check out other nursing schools in the area without alerting your friends', or 'you ran someone over and need to put distance between you and the site of the crime', or 'you're planning to commit suicide', or 'you're planning to run away with your secret boyfriend', or any of the other many, many possibilities discussed over the course of these threads, and you might see some different answers.

I'm not a fan of Renner's blog, but I read it anyway because even it can bring something to light. I read one or two others and listen to the podcasts on the case and one of those, Missing Maura Murray, references many of the blog sites. I guess my problem with many of these is that they do a lot of finger pointing at LE errors. I don't see much value in that, because in the case of most of the errors not much can be done to correct them now. The exception being if LE didn't search in a particular area, you can do that now. But I do wonder if something LE and the bloggers have can be put together to get a better picture of what did happen and where Maura might have gone.

 

[Caffeine]

If anything, I hope the documentary takes a more unbiased approach at this. At least judging by the efforts of the podcast they are trying to look at all the angles which is preferable.

The blog on the other hand, has morphed into this perpetual conspiracy theory that she ran away, using the same spin and smoke and mirrors repeatedly. Some of the logic employed requires some pretty giant leaps of faith.

Which is kind of sad because every person who happens to start following the case will immediately Google it, find the blog and start buying into the notion that she undoubtedly is alive and well.

There's a lot of things that could have happened here, but to dismiss every reasonable scenario in favor of, quite honestly, the most improbable one is ridiculous.

 

[Captain_Khan]

Renner has a great, engaging writing style. I respect him for keeping interest in Maura's case alive, and I have told him as much in the past. Three years ago, I quit my job to train to become a journalist, and cited his work as one of my influences during my interview. I can state with confidence that Renner is one of the reasons why I am a now a journalist.

However, multiple people have pointed out that he wants to make Maura's disappearance about himself, and I'm inclined to agree. His book, True Crime Addict, is clearly named for himself (he is the addict of the title). Even his blog about Maura is titled "MY search for Maura Murray", putting himself first above Maura.

But, to post on topic - cars, and their strange relevance to this case
One thing nobody can really explain is why Maura had Fred's car the night she crashed it (On Sunday, February 8) - except for Fred.
And yet, we know Fred has no idea what happened to Maura after she vanished (unless, of course, he was willing to pretend to look for her every cold, lonely weekend of his life for many years after she vanished).
So, Fred both knows why she had the car, and doesn't know why she vanished.
We still don't have a satisfactory reason why she had Fred's car. She just 'borrowed' it, despite having a car of her own.
I'm convinced Fred knows *why* she set off on that trip, because it was the reason for their focus in the days leading up to the trip in ensuring she had a decent car to drive, to ensure she made the journey safe.
And yet, neither he nor anybody else has offered a good reason as to why she made that fateful journey.
Why?

 

[Caffeine]

I think, as with a lot of things, we expect to have this neat picture of everything that hold the many pieces of the puzzle, it's just a matter of gathering the pieces and putting them together to form a clear view of what happened.

And in this big picture we have all these actions intertwined that when we get to the bottom of it, we have a concise set of events that will make perfect sense.

With this case, I don't get that feeling at all. We can speculate she perhaps, just as an example, embarked on this trip to commit suicide and despite some set backs that ultimately what she did.

But our actions aren't always that simple, we make decisions constantly that can change the course of our lives, whether it's simple things we decide upon or more difficult things that may present themselves in a situation we are not expecting.

She may have went on a trip for a plethora of reasons, but in the end she crashed her car and that set forth a whole new series of events and choices to be made. A simple plan could have got complicated really quickly and opened the door to new events.

I think we're all expecting 1+1=2 here but in the end I don't think we'll necessarily see a clean, neat and simple explanation for this.

 

[SleuthVT]

When I first started researching this case, I thought that she had run into the woods, but I don't think the evidence matches that at all. Despite Renner's blog being a lot of him inserting himself into the situation aggressively, I still appreciate how much information he lays out in such an organized way (or at least, initially). But now, there's a disconnect in his blog that I think people are misunderstanding. He has his own opinion just like we do and it's prevalent recently because there's no movement in the case, but people are still expecting content.

I personally think that she planned to run away from all the wrongs she had done and wanted to cut ties with Billy and her dad (rag in tailpipe, leaving all her stuff behind, she was a very shady and secretive person, about to get kicked out of another school for theft, didn't want to stay with Billy, her dad probably pushing her to improve her life, open alcohol in the car either drank or staged, packed up her stuff at school - not planning on coming back, possible hit and run, dog lost scent in the middle of the road, she didn't want help from the bus driver).

Although the one thing that confuses me is the cop stating that one man won't let them X-ray a concrete slab he kept pouring for no reason in his yard. Does anyone know more about this?

 

[BritishRacingGreen]

When I first started researching this case, I thought that she had run into the woods, but I don't think the evidence matches that at all. Despite Renner's blog being a lot of him inserting himself into the situation aggressively, I still appreciate how much information he lays out in such an organized way (or at least, initially). But now, there's a disconnect in his blog that I think people are misunderstanding. He has his own opinion just like we do and it's prevalent recently because there's no movement in the case, but people are still expecting content.

I personally think that she planned to run away from all the wrongs she had done and wanted to cut ties with Billy and her dad (rag in tailpipe, leaving all her stuff behind, she was a very shady and secretive person, about to get kicked out of another school for theft, didn't want to stay with Billy, her dad probably pushing her to improve her life, open alcohol in the car either drank or staged, packed up her stuff at school - not planning on coming back, possible hit and run, dog lost scent in the middle of the road, she didn't want help from the bus driver).

Although the one thing that confuses me is the cop stating that one man won't let them X-ray a concrete slab he kept pouring for no reason in his yard. Does anyone know more about this?

I didn't know about the rag in tail pipe, theft charge at school or cement.

Thanks for this summary! Can you point out where I can find more on these three things, or feel free to elaborate yourself. TY


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[Caffeine]

I think a lot of the good articles were covered locally by Maribeth Conway for the local newspaper, she was also in the Disappeared episode as well, though I can't remember how her name is spelled.

But she did a lot of good reporting in the first few years and even later on, which brings up some of those points. The newspaper I believe is the Whitman Hanson Express.

 

[JnRyan]

Going through the 'Missing Maura Murray' podcast. One episode covers her father going to the place where her car was towed. (And I believe it was a few days later and the car was at the tow truck owner's house, not a place of business or with LE.) He found the spare key he kept hidden on the car and it started right away. I wonder if Maura tried to start the car right after hitting the snow bank and it wouldn't start again? (In an interview with her father he stated the car was essentially running on 3 cyclinders. ID channel? 48 Hours? Don't remember, but that interview is on one of the episodes as well.) Why leave the car and go out on foot if the car would still start? Panic? Frustration? Makes me wonder how much she had to drink.

 

[JnRyan]

I think a lot of the good articles were covered locally by Maribeth Conway for the local newspaper, she was also in the Disappeared episode as well, though I can't remember how her name is spelled.

But she did a lot of good reporting in the first few years and even later on, which brings up some of those points. The newspaper I believe is the Whitman Hanson Express.

I did a Google search on her Maribeth Conway and came up with this link to a .pdf file. 29 pages. No real earth shattering info, but it does have a rather objective story in one document.

https://mauramurrayblog.files.wordp...an-hanson-express-maura-is-missing-series.pdf

It also may have answered my question as to why Maura didn't start up the car again and leave. Both airbags had deployed.