NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[Rallibella]

This was a radio interview Maggie Freleng (from the Oxygen program) did recently. Her comments at the end were intriquing.

I tried to read that and couldn't - that transcript has so many errors in words in it that I couldn't make sense of it. What did you take of it?

 

[Lamima]

I couldn't read it either.

 

[avamonroe]

I tried to read that and couldn't - that transcript has so many errors in words in it that I couldn't make sense of it. What did you take of it?

Wow the transcript is bad. Give it a listen towards the end, Maggie talks about people coming forward and that some are now not afraid due to people they were afraid of being deceased

 

[Rallibella]

Isn't the only deceased person Atwood?

 

[Caffeine]

Wow the transcript is bad. Give it a listen towards the end, Maggie talks about people coming forward and that some are now not afraid due to people they were afraid of being deceased

Yeah the transcript was awful but the main bombshell at the end was Maggie saying she believes the case is close to being solved.

As for the deceased in question, Atwood is the only one we know of. However, I think it's very likely there's some names we haven't heard of yet or only lightly discussed.

 

[cutter99]

What is, in your opinion, the simplest explanation?

To me, the simplest explanation was that Maura walked into the woods to get away from the police, who would be arriving at the accident scene at any minute. I think she told Butch Atwood she had already called AAA to avoid having anyone call the police, if she had been drinking. She walked into the woods to hide, and succumbed to hypothermia, which could have come on fairly quickly if she had been drinking.

She just had her second accident within a few days. This one could have had much bigger repercussions if she was indeed drinking. Added to that, she would have had to explain why she was in that area in the first place. Even if she had not been drinking, there would still be repercussions from a second accident. If she felt she were already in trouble with her father, this accident would certainly not help.

Not pointing fingers here, but stating a fact- alcoholism has genetic tendencies and Maura’s older sister had just come out of a treatment program. Did Maura have a drinking problem or was she headed to one?

I remember reading that in addition to both air bags being deployed, the car’s windshield was cracked as well. Although Butch Atwood said Maura did not appear injured, she did appear drunk. Could that have been a potential head injury? And, if that were the case, it would have made her more vulnerable to hypothermia.

Were dogs brought to the scene? Were they regular search dogs or actual cadaver dogs? Was a thorough grid search done of the area? How long after the accident were they done, if they were done?

 

[avamonroe]

Yeah the transcript was awful but the main bombshell at the end was Maggie saying she believes the case is close to being solved.

As for the deceased in question, Atwood is the only one we know of. However, I think it's very likely there's some names we haven't heard of yet or only lightly discussed.

Claude Moulton is deceased and so is Bruce Mckay

 

[pjef]

I've been following the serial documentary. I have a thought ... what if a predator (male OR female/s) bullied their way into Maura's car at one of her stops.... the details of her accident would be accounted for if she crashed on purpose and tried to either injure her front-seat passenger (they asked why she would "shave" on the right side of the road instead of go off to the left) or just get a chance to run out of the car and get away. I guess it didn't work. (Also, one report had someone else in the car smoking a cigarette.) If an accomplice was driving along with them, they could have immediately picked her up. Perhaps her passenger had a gun pointed at her.

 

[LvsAMystry]

The truth is, the only person saying they saw that vehicle where she did, when she did, is Karen McNamara. The Westmans, Atwoods, Marrottes, and first responders make no mention of it. Either they’re all wrong and she’s right, or her timing is off.


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Well, this is all true and for 13 years has been correct, since McNamara was the only one to have seen 001 and she was told she was wrong. It was said over and over she was wrong bc Smith responded in the sedan or 002. Except now, as of last night he didn’t, he said was in 001 the SUV when he responded. I guess that makes McNamara the only one correct?

I don’t necessarily subscribe to police conspiracy either, it’s just suspect to change a detail like that. It’s frustrating, bc I think you’re right that things were botched.

 

[Lamima]

I've been following the serial documentary. I have a thought ... what if a predator (male OR female/s) bullied their way into Maura's car at one of her stops.... the details of her accident would be accounted for if she crashed on purpose and tried to either injure her front-seat passenger (they asked why she would "shave" on the right side of the road instead of go off to the left) or just get a chance to run out of the car and get away. I guess it didn't work. (Also, one report had someone else in the car smoking a cigarette.) If an accomplice was driving along with them, they could have immediately picked her up. Perhaps her passenger had a gun pointed at her.

Where would said person have gone to when Butch Atwood pulled up in his bus? He only was Maura. And Maura did not try to burst into his bus to flee from bad guy.

 

[armywife210]

Respectfully, that's your opinion. I've personally found Smith to be the equivalent of any number of fantasy-prone personalities I've encountered on message boards regarding true crime: paranoid, rambling, and ultimately nonsensical, chock full of supposed insider-gossip and a grand, overarching theory that he's hard-pressed to present in a logical way (despite dominating discussions with his grandiose sense of superiority)

Worse, I think he's knowingly stringing Fred and the family along. We know Fred Murray distrusts the police and thinks they haven't done enough to find his daughter. John Smith is a former police officer who was dismissed from his duties many years ago and whose family disintegrated in the process. He's using Fred's disdain for local and state law-enforcement as a way to wedge himself into the case and use it as a means to air his grievances and, as a result, there's no way to discuss this case now without having to entertain his paranoid fantasies.

The real question is, is this former carnival barker merely a con artist or does he actually believe in the snake oil he's selling? If it's the former, fine. This is America and a man's gotta make a living somehow (even if it's as a ghoul exploiting the grief of others). If it's the latter, then John Smith has the potential to be a very dangerous man. His adversarial encounter with Tim Westman on the podcast was quite telling, and that he has an open carry permit and an axe to grind is worrisome. It could well be only a matter of time before he hurts someone or himself.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I feel that if you want to find out what happened to someone, it's a smart move to listen to the small town gossip. There's a lot of knowledge to be gained by hearing out locals.
I know who John Smith is, I've been doing my research on this case for the past 13 years. I don't find his approach "grandiose" or "superior". I think he's knowledgeable, as would be anyone who has put as much time and energy into a case. I've seen him as a great asset to the case. Since just a few weeks after Maura disappeared he has been working with Fred, searching along side him. I wouldn't consider that stringing Fred along, by any means.
I think that it would be an awful long time for Mr. Smith to lie in wait, hoping for something to come along so he could get back at law enforcement.
It's certainly no secret that he distrusts them, as does Fred. Unfortunately, not all agencies are worthy of trust.



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[scaredtopost]

The most recent episode confirmed by belief that MM put the rag in the tailpipe herself, after the crash, to prevent the smoke from drawing more attention to the car. She didn't know BA had called the police and hoped no one would notice the car right away. Not trying to beat a dead horse but I've had this theory since the beginning and have seen posters get downright angry with the suggestion.
JMO MOO etc

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[Pettibon Junction]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Personally, I feel that if you want to find out what happened to someone, it's a smart move to listen to the small town gossip. There's a lot of knowledge to be gained by hearing out locals.
I know who John Smith is, I've been doing my research on this case for the past 13 years. I don't find his approach "grandiose" or "superior". I think he's knowledgeable, as would be anyone who has put as much time and energy into a case. I've seen him as a great asset to the case. Since just a few weeks after Maura disappeared he has been working with Fred, searching along side him. I wouldn't consider that stringing Fred along, by any means.
I think that it would be an awful long time for Mr. Smith to lie in wait, hoping for something to come along so he could get back at law enforcement.
It's certainly no secret that he distrusts them, as does Fred. Unfortunately, not all agencies are worthy of trust.



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Fine by me, except not very much of the small-town gossip centers around wrongdoing by the police. It centers around a few different individuals who have, at one time or another, been suspected of involvement with Maura's disappearance. The police conspiracy comes solely from John Smith and Karen McNamara (I refuse to continue indulging the "Witness A" title, as it's grandiose and totally self-serving) and I find both of them to be less-than-trustworthy.

Look, it's normal to end up blaming the police. When a crime goes unsolved for a long time, people start to distrust the authorities, if not outright accusing them of conspiracy and cover-up. It happens all the time in cold cases and is a sociological phenomenon that people can and have written about at length. But despite its allure, there is seldom any merit to it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the police fouled up here. They thought they had a drunk driver who fled the scene and that she'd turn up at the impound lot after sleeping it off someplace. But that the airbags were deployed and the windshield was cracked SHOULD have indicated possible injury and local and state law enforcement should have proceeded immediately with an "endangered missing" BOLO. They failed in that regard, as also they failed to immediately search east on Rt 112 which is where she more than likely went.

The police made mistakes, but they are understandable mistakes. If there's any covering up or glossing over, it's the failures I've outlined above. Never assign to malice what can be explained by incompetence and all that. But John Smith, over the course of the past decade, has conflated these failures into something sinister and overarching and it clouds the investigation, demanding to be addressed every single time someone decides to look at it with fresh eyes (ditto Renner and his "tandem driver" fantasy).

And I hate to keep hammering the point home but John Smith was FIRED from a VERY small police force in which he had very few actual responsibilities and his wife left him not long afterward. These are bold red arrows pointing directly at a personality that isn't entirely stable. Just because the guy is local (well, within 20 miles, according to him) and remains strong in his convictions does not make him right and he's said and done a lot of strange things that have nothing to do with Maura Murray that are questionable, if not offensive. (See: racist remarks and 9/11 truther conspiracy theories)

Just remember this: the prefix "con" in "con man" stands for "confidence."

EDIT:
Also, if you think 13 years is a long time to hold a grudge, I suggest you Google the name Gareth Penn and see for yourself how long he's been stalking his "suspect" in the Zodiac case.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Claude Moulton is deceased and so is Bruce Mckay

Where are you seeing that Claude has passed away? Larry died a while back but as far as I knew Claude was still alive and kicking.

 

[avamonroe]

Where are you seeing that Claude has passed away? Larry died a while back but as far as I knew Claude was still alive and kicking.

I found that there are death records for him when I was snooping (but it's behind a paywall), and John confirmed it when I asked him yesterday (as he is local and I an not in the US).

 

[thenotebook]

Who is Claude?

 

[italianangel2411]

Oh, and one other thing: Atty Strelzin repeatedly used the words “ongoing criminal investigation” and was present at both John Monaghan and Cecil Smith’s interviews. Why? To make sure they didn’t say anything that would compromise the investigation!

He also mentioned that grand jury proceedings were done. For those unfamiliar, you generally don’t empanel a grand jury unless you’re looking seriously to file charges.

Forgetting all the other stuff - the Renners and John Smiths, the Witness A’s and idle online speculation - look at the timeline of bureaucracy and you’ll see a stymied legal system waiting to amass enough evidence to bring a case against a person or persons (at the moment unknown) for a crime. That’s not nothing.


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I completely agree with you. The most important thing from this series so far to me is that it is a "criminal" investigation. I do believe they have a suspect or suspects in mind but may not have enough evidence for an arrest.

 

[avamonroe]

Claude Moulton of the A-frame house. His brother Larry approached Fred with a rusty knife and alleged Claude had something go do with harming Maura

 

[leilarose68]

To me, the simplest explanation was that Maura walked into the woods to get away from the police, who would be arriving at the accident scene at any minute. I think she told Butch Atwood she had already called AAA to avoid having anyone call the police, if she had been drinking. She walked into the woods to hide, and succumbed to hypothermia, which could have come on fairly quickly if she had been drinking.

She just had her second accident within a few days. This one could have had much bigger repercussions if she was indeed drinking. Added to that, she would have had to explain why she was in that area in the first place. Even if she had not been drinking, there would still be repercussions from a second accident. If she felt she were already in trouble with her father, this accident would certainly not help.

Not pointing fingers here, but stating a fact- alcoholism has genetic tendencies and Maura’s older sister had just come out of a treatment program. Did Maura have a drinking problem or was she headed to one?

I remember reading that in addition to both air bags being deployed, the car’s windshield was cracked as well. Although Butch Atwood said Maura did not appear injured, she did appear drunk. Could that have been a potential head injury? And, if that were the case, it would have made her more vulnerable to hypothermia.

Were dogs brought to the scene? Were they regular search dogs or actual cadaver dogs? Was a thorough grid search done of the area? How long after the accident were they done, if they were done?

Maybe walking into the woods and dying of exposure is STATISTICALLY more likely but how do you explain away the complete lack of footprints PLUS the fact that dogs tracked her scent from the car down the road?

Maura was a very knowledgable, experienced outdoors person. If she 'hid' in the woods, I think it was close to the road and she ran down the road after police left because what other choice would she have? She wasn't an idiot and knew what the cold would do to her. And quickly. If her head injury wasn't so bad as to speak coherently to Butch I don't think her judgment was THAT impaired.

 

[leilarose68]

It's very telling that in that radio interview Maggie has indicated she believes the case is close to being solved & the reason she thinks so is that tons of people are coming forward now because 'certain people' have died even though they don't have 'a suspect yet.' I do think Maggie and Art believe Maura met with foul play and I think police think this too.