NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[Pettibon Junction]

You know, I got to wondering about something last night. The dogs originally traced Maura's scent to the intersection where they lost it, so we're all left assuming she got into a car there. But she was a runner; if she got there, looked both ways, then took off at top speed, wouldn't the scent have been fainter and perhaps dissipated by the time the dogs were brought in?

 

[Caffeine]

Also, while police will have your license plate and information if the car is abandoned they surely won't be able to charge you with the biggest penalty here - which in her case is a DUI. Sure, they could throw some lesser charges at her (leaving the scene of an accident, open container etc) but not being there when police arrived would definitely buy her time to avoid a DUI.

I believe that was the big thing in her mind and she was prepared to flee in any way possible.

 

[SavageMarkIII]

You know, I got to wondering about something last night. The dogs originally traced Maura's scent to the intersection where they lost it, so we're all left assuming she got into a car there. But she was a runner; if she got there, looked both ways, then took off at top speed, wouldn't the scent have been fainter and perhaps dissipated by the time the dogs were brought in?

BBM
1) Maura was a long distance runner, not a sprinter; this info can be found in the 2003 UMASS Women's Track and Field Guide
2) From watching the Oxygen show where Maggie and Art speak with the dog handlers, I do not believe that is how scent works. I don't believe it can fade away because you're fast. Even if running, her shoes would have still been hitting the pavement and her scent would still be in the area. The handlers seemed to indicate the only thing that could lessen the scent of someone would be extreme wind.

 

[Inana]

After watching the episode where Cecil Smith claims he was driving the SUV 001 that night, I was struck by how often he blinks during the interview. Every 10 seconds. That is a give-away sign of lying. For some reason, Cecil Smith is falling on his sword to save the chief, who regularly drove the SUV. Why?

 

[Inana]

BBM
1) Maura was a long distance runner, not a sprinter; this info can be found in the 2003 UMASS Women's Track and Field Guide
2) From watching the Oxygen show where Maggie and Art speak with the dog handlers, I do not believe that is how scent works. I don't believe it can fade away because you're fast. Even if running, her shoes would have still been hitting the pavement and her scent would still be in the area. The handlers seemed to indicate the only thing that could lessen the scent of someone would be extreme wind.

I agree. She may have started walking back downhill, but when her scent stopped in the bend of the road, to me that means that is where she accepted the ride with the police chief in SUV 001.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

After watching the episode where Cecil Smith claims he was driving the SUV 001 that night, I was struck by how often he blinks during the interview. Every 10 seconds. That is a give-away sign of lying. For some reason, Cecil Smith is falling on his sword to save the chief, who regularly drove the SUV. Why?

Again, for the thousandth time: all these police conspiracies are being promulgated by a single man who was fired from the very police force he’s accusing after less than two years of employment over a decade ago, having never risen above the rank of patrolman. This man, John Smith, provocatively accused Chief Williams of Maura’s murder on camera only to go all-in on Claude Moulton when asked. He’s a pedantic opportunist with no allegiance to logic or common sense whose identity is so wrapped up in the mystery that to actually take any real steps to solve it would be to deprive his life of purpose. A person like that is potentially very dangerous and it is not in your interest to trust him.


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[theides]

After watching the episode where Cecil Smith claims he was driving the SUV 001 that night, I was struck by how often he blinks during the interview. Every 10 seconds. That is a give-away sign of lying. For some reason, Cecil Smith is falling on his sword to save the chief, who regularly drove the SUV. Why?

Afaik, the rate of his blinks can't really be analyzed without a baseline (how often he generally blinks), and the whole blinking thing isn't the most reliable for deception detection. Lots of different things can affect it (anxiety, dryness), and some research has shown that liars slow their blinks while lying. Here are some quotes from an interesting study about it:

Research has demonstrated that lie detectors typically associate an increase in eye blinks with deception (Stro¨mwall et al.2004; Taylor and Hick 2007; Vrij et al. 2006a). Our findings suggest that they would (i)incorrectly classify truth tellers as liars and (ii) incorrectly classify liars as truth tellers when they rely upon eye blinks to detecting deception in circumstances where lying requires cognitive load.

Mann et al.’s (2002) research, in which the eye blinks displayed by suspects in police interviews when they told the truth and lied during these interviews were examined, suggest that the skeptics may be wrong. Mann et al.’s study was clearly a highstakes study as the suspects were suspected of serious crimes such as murder, rape, and arson. Yet the suspects showed a decrease in eye blinks when lying

Source of the above quotes: http://myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~p3896116/Blinking.pdf

JMO, of course.

 

[MaggieSky]

All the above was to try to understand her state of mind after Accident #2 in NH. I'm still not sure of her intent/reason for leaving school and MA that day.

MOO, I think the above shows why she left the scene of Accident #2. And I believe she did get in a car with someone to just avoid the police. That is the way your mind works when you panic. Your instinct is everything will be better if I leave here before cops get here. You don't really think about the consequences and that they have your license plate and VIN #.

I agree with others, it doesn't have to be a Serial killer who just happened by. It could have been anyone, but then she met foul play either by the person that picked her up or by someone else wherever they let her out, if it wasn't the driver/other passengers.

But MOO is she definitely left the accident scene (no police or neighbor foul play) and was picked up in a car.

Agreed....it didn't have to be a serial killer that picked her up. Plenty of people have been involved in murders where something went wrong. You know the story some guy offers a ride, makes a pass at you and things escalate from there. Or they just didn't deliver her safely to her destination.

I remember being that age, you do not think anything bad will happen to you. She also had a reason not to stay on accident scene(in her mind). I'm guessing based on her history.


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[Pettibon Junction]

Agreed....it didn't have to be a serial killer that picked her up. Plenty of people have been involved in murders where something went wrong. You know the story some guy offers a ride, makes a pass at you and things escalate from there. Or they just didn't deliver her safely to her destination.

I remember being that age, you do not think anything bad will happen to you. She also had a reason not to stay on accident scene(in her mind). I'm guessing based on her history.


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The "serial killer" thing is and always has been a strawman argument inserted by people trying to shut down any discussion of the possibility of foul play or investigation into suspects. Namely, the person yelling loudest about how ridiculous the idea of a serial killer crossing Maura's path that night is James Renner, who believed she was alive in Canada until he decided that Bill Rausch must have killed her at the outing cabin where she was brought by her tandem drivers Kate Markopoulos and Sara Alfieri (he's still using the debunked Butson's sighting to support this) when he came up to assist in the search. Never mind that there is no evidence for any of this. It's bunkum.

You know the old adage as well as I do: don't feed the trolls.

 

[MaggieSky]

The "serial killer" thing is and always has been a strawman argument inserted by people trying to shut down any discussion of the possibility of foul play or investigation into suspects. Namely, the person yelling loudest about how ridiculous the idea of a serial killer crossing Maura's path that night is James Renner, who believed she was alive in Canada until he decided that Bill Rausch must have killed her at the outing cabin where she was brought by her tandem drivers Kate Markopoulos and Sara Alfieri (he's still using the debunked Butson's sighting to support this) when he came up to assist in the search. Never mind that there is no evidence for any of this. It's bunkum.

You know the old adage as well as I do: don't feed the trolls.

Well I'm late to the party(as usual). I didn't know that Renner changed his theory. Also I haven't heard a lot about the reason he thinks there was a tandem driver, besides she had to be picked up by someone.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Well I'm late to the party(as usual). I didn't know that Renner changed his theory. Also I haven't heard a lot about the reason he thinks there was a tandem driver, besides she had to be picked up by someone.

To be fair. I'm mostly speaking for him since he's playing coy and won't come right out and say what he actually believes. He'd also open himself up to a libel/defamation suit were he to name names, so it's not without reason that he's only giving us breadcrumbs. What I've outlined above is what I was able to piece together based on the hints he's dropped so far. He can correct me any time he wants but all he's said is "I don't know whether Maura's alive or dead."

 

[Skigirl]

Well I'm late to the party(as usual). I didn't know that Renner changed his theory. Also I haven't heard a lot about the reason he thinks there was a tandem driver, besides she had to be picked up by someone.

Sigh.. I'm not sure why anyone cares about any of Renner's theories. Who cares what he thinks? He's at one time or another held almost every theory. Other than the fact that he has his own website instead of (or in addition to) posting on Websleuths, there's nothing special about him.

 

[bluesneakers]

Sigh.. I'm not sure why anyone cares about any of Renner's theories. Who cares what he thinks? He's at one time or another held almost every theory. Other than the fact that he has his own website instead of (or in addition to) posting on Websleuths, there's nothing special about him.

I think he's totally lost any objectivity he had in Maura's case.

I finished the last episode of the Oxygen series and I'm disappointed because I'm going to miss it! It's been great and I was finally able to get a friend interested in Maura so I have someone else to talk to about her.

 

[theides]

Sigh.. I'm not sure why anyone cares about any of Renner's theories. Who cares what he thinks? He's at one time or another held almost every theory. Other than the fact that he has his own website instead of (or in addition to) posting on Websleuths, there's nothing special about him.

Hear, hear! I get so tired of hearing Renner and hearing about Renner.

Granted, a few days ago I ran across a discussion between some folks who think he had something to do with Maura's disappearance, and that was somewhat worth having to look at his name a number of times. (In a "Wow" sort of way. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I buy into that. :angel

 

[Whiskers16]

OT - Please take a moment to read the latest help request from Tricia. You can see her note called "it is urgent now" under the Missing Persons Discussion forum. Here's a snip:

"You can donate at .com or use the email websleuthsdonations@gmail.com and you can donate thru PayPal.com or Google Wallet

This is URGENT!!!

There are bills coming up that are not going to be paid and that will start the awful domino effect that could lead to real trouble for Websleuths."

 

[Deleted member 278]

Say what you will about Renner but who else has kept her name in the forefront like he has? And, so what if he changes his opinion of what happened? That's what intelligent people do when they gather new input and hear new ideas, right? Websleuths members do it ALL the time about any given mystery! I happen to like him and am glad he is still on a quest to find out what happened.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Say what you will about Renner but who else has kept her name in the forefront like he has? And, so what if he changes his opinion of what happened? That's what intelligent people do when they gather new input and hear new ideas, right? Websleuths members do it ALL the time about any given mystery! I happen to like him and am glad he is still on a quest to find out what happened.

He *advertiser censored*-shamed her in print and called her a sociopath. That’s not doing her or anyone else a service.


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[Deleted member 278]

He *advertiser censored*-shamed her in print and called her a sociopath. That’s not doing her or anyone else a service.


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Renner wrote about what he heard and reported it back.
And, he has since taken back calling her a sociopath.

 

[bluesneakers]

He *advertiser censored*-shamed her in print and called her a sociopath. That’s not doing her or anyone else a service.


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The only thing I can think to say is at least he kept the case alive in people's minds. Because of what he did more people knew about Maura and more people were talking about her.

But. Like you said - he *advertiser censored*-shamed her and called her a sociopath and spread the rumour she was pregnant (based on some google searches ffs) and said her father had molested her. He was married to the idea of a tandem driver because it best supported the story he wanted others to believe. Etc. Not one of those things were done in an effort to help find her.

He could have kept her case on everyone's mind without doing as much damage as he did.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

The only thing I can think to say is at least he kept the case alive in people's minds. Because of what he did more people knew about Maura and more people were talking about her.

But. Like you said - he *advertiser censored*-shamed her and called her a sociopath and spread the rumour she was pregnant (based on some google searches ffs) and said her father had molested her. He was married to the idea of a tandem driver because it best supported the story he wanted others to believe. Etc. Not one of those things were done in an effort to help find her.

He could have kept her case on everyone's mind without doing as much damage as he did.

Exactly. And god knows some of us were here well before Renner and would have kept her name alive without sinking to any of the lows you’ve mentioned. Plus, now anytime someone wants to do any kind of media push, they have to reinterview the guy and pretend his ideas have any merit.

James Renner and the tandem driver are basically Robert Graysmith and Arthur Leigh Allen all over again, without the added benefit that Graysmith is in his late 70s and won’t be around to muddy up the waters much longer. Renner’s much younger and, if this case stays unsolved, apt to stick around and do damage for years to come.


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