NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 4

[docwho3]

nnglas.....as much as that is a good story, in that the woman's son was found alive and well, I truly do feel that is is downright MEAN to disappear like that
for over 20 years....especially for no apparent reason.

Unless you were fleeing from a VERY abusive family situation, then I don't feel it is right to let your family think you're dead.

Maybe others will disagree, but just stop and think for a minute about how
you would feel if your wife, husband, son, daughter or brother or sister
were to do that. You would be distraught and sad....and then if you found out later....especially years later, that they were alive and well, it's nearly impossible not to have some semblance of anger and resentment.

Sure it seems mean but we do not know what went on in the head of the missing person. I try really hard not to judge the missing person or their family but to just decide if the person was the victem of foul play or not.

In my opinion there is a moral obligation to not worry family and friends and not to waste the time of L.E. on needless searches. I think we need laws that require a form be filled out with L.E. if one decides to go missing so resources won't be wasted looking for the runaway and family would know it is a case of an adult runaway. Yes some families would try to insist foul play had occurred anyway but with the law in place it would save resources and if a person ran away without filling out the form and was located they could be expected to pay the costs of the search and investigation into their disapearance.

Until we have such a law the sad fact is that adults evidently have a legal right to disappear. They have the right to privacy and the right to live their life where ever they want in the USA and none of us has to tell any relative or friend when we move or leave to go somewhere else.

In some cases where a person needs to run away from danger such freedom is a good thing but in cases where someone had some mental or family issue going on it leaves family and friends worrying with no answers, often for years and wastes valuable L.E. resources.

 

[docwho3]

Just wanted to share this article with everyone. I guess it just goes to show that there is always hope.



http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/localnews/ci_3650322

I noticed one thing that stood out to me was what triggered him to finally contact home was an online article that evidently stirred up some urge to let them know he was alive. That is a very important thing for families of the runaways to know.

. . ."Never underestimate a young person's capacity to justify their actions and rationalize their decisions," Humbard, now 43, said. "Events sweep you up. I got married. I had kids. There are a lot of whys behind this."
Prompted by an article he found online about his mother that ran in the Herald in February 2005, Humbard reappeared last July just as suddenly as he had vanished.
Helkenn said the Herald article was "the trigger" that made the unlikely reunion possible.
"He was standing at the door for so long, but he just couldn't open it." she said. "Your article opened it for him."
. . .

http://www.insidebayarea.com/dailyreview/localnews/ci_3650322

 

[Masterj]

In my opinion there is a moral obligation to not worry family and friends and not to waste the time of L.E. on needless searches. I think we need laws that require a form be filled out with L.E. if one decides to go missing so resources won't be wasted looking for the runaway and family would know it is a case of an adult runaway. Yes some families would try to insist foul play had occurred anyway but with the law in place it would save resources and if a person ran away without filling out the form and was located they could be expected to pay the costs of the search and investigation into their disapearance.

I completely agree with this idea.

 

[docwho3]

The conversation about the night of the first accident has opened up a possibiility which was touched upon by czechmate7. That would be that it might be possible that she went somewhere that night besides just going straight back to her dads motel room. I wonder if the time needed to travel that route has been measured against the time actually used that night to see if it was possible that she made some previously unknown stop off?

If you take an hour to make a 15 minute trip the question becomes where else did you go?

 

[czechmate7]

The conversation about the night of the first accident has opened up a possibiility which was touched upon by czechmate7. That would be that it might be possible that she went somewhere that night besides just going straight back to her dads motel room. I wonder if the time needed to travel that route has been measured against the time actually used that night to see if it was possible that she made some previously unknown stop off?

If you take an hour to make a 15 minute trip the question becomes where else did you go?

Doc~ that was the point I was trying to make without having anyone jump on me for thinking Maura would deviate from the destination of her father's hotel.

This is the conversation in the early press story where she was very upset not only (he thought) about the car accident but about something else and it took him a while to calm her down.

This statement made the wheels start turning in my head as well....Is it possible (of course it is, ANYTHING is possible at this point!!) that the accident occured in an area that isn't between point A (dorm room) and point B (dad's hotel) and Maura was so afraid that Billy would find out and question the situation (why @ 3am where you in that area of town??) Can someone give the proximity of the accident to Maura's proposed destination? (This theory can be shot down easily with knowing the proximity of the accident!)

 

[docwho3]

Doc~ that was the point I was trying to make without having anyone jump on me for thinking Maura would deviate from the destination of her father's hotel.

This statement made the wheels start turning in my head as well....Is it possible (of course it is, ANYTHING is possible at this point!!) that the accident occured in an area that isn't between point A (dorm room) and point B (dad's hotel) and Maura was so afraid that Billy would find out and question the situation (why @ 3am where you in that area of town??) Can someone give the proximity of the accident to Maura's proposed destination? (This theory can be shot down easily with knowing the proximity of the accident!)

All good questions. Although I admit my thoughts were a bit more tame. I was wondering if she was already planning to leave and had met someone to finalize some details that night before heading on to the motel. Still, your thoughts make sense too. I suppose we need to know more of details you requested.

 

[armywife210]

Since this group isn't LE and basically just a group of individuals that have donated time and have no legal obligation to keep their findings private are they willing to share the information which led them to believe something sinsister has happened?

I just need some shred of evidence that something sinister has taken place. I have no problem believing if any kind of factual evidence is given. I have yet to see any. Make me a believer please....I want to believe something awful has happened also (I'm starting to feel out of place on this thread!)

This group of "individuals" are by profession Private Investigators, certainly they are not going to release any information that would be make prosecution of a perp difficult.
I certainly do not want to believe something awful has happened, I would love to find out Maura is somewhere out there living happily. So would her family, friends, would be fiance' (husband by now). Even Billy would MUCH rather deal with knowing she just didn't want to be with him anymore than to believe that something awful has happened and someone has hurt her. However, that is just really really difficult to fathom under the circumstances.
AND WE see no evidence that she did take off.
I am not meaning to be argumentative at all, I am just pointing out that anything you may see as evidence isn't necessarily what some might think. She is listed on the National Center for Missing Adults website as endangered missing.

 

[czechmate7]

. However, that is just really really difficult to fathom under the circumstances.
AND WE see no evidence that she did take off.
I am not meaning to be argumentative at all, I am just pointing out that anything you may see as evidence isn't necessarily what some might think..

There is no evidence that she did take off? Is there evidence that she's been abducted and murdered? Please let me know because I'm beginning to feel like a complete idiot trying to figure things out based on evidence that isn't necessarily what I might think.

Here's a question to ponder....

When Maura had her accident (2nd) why did she refuse to have the bus driver call LE (she didn't want to go with him...that's established, she didn't have to go anywhere with him, she didn't want him calling)....hold on, this question is in two parts....and since she knew the bus driver was calling LE, why did she lock the doors to her car and take off to look for help? Why not run behind the red barn up the road that I've seen in the photos of the accident sight until LE, which she knew was on it's way, showed up? I am an intelligent individual and that's what I would have done IF I was waiting for help to arrive and not trying to "get away". Maura is an intelligant person....give her some credit!

 

[armywife210]

czechmate, I definately give her credit for being the intelligent, caring person that she is.
Her car was operable... why didn't she just get it going and get on her way? Why dump it? It started right up for Billy.
It is not fact that she told Atwood NOT to call police. It is what Atwood said. If we are to belive what he says and take what he says for fact then we must ponder why he kept changing his stories. Why did he see the airbag deployed and covering half of her face... yet he didnt actually see the accident. Airbags deploy on impact and immediately deflate. Why did he say that he was previously a cop in MA when he was never a cop anywhere? Why did he say that he went looking for her way down some weird direction, yet didn't even stop and ask if they had seen her at a nearby store? There are so many things that were stated by Atwood that dont make sense, and there are so many stories that cannot all be true (because they contradict eachother) made by Atwood. SO I have a really hard time writing off ANYTHING Atwood says as fact. In truth, how can we rely on Atwood? And why all of the untruths?
Same is true for the construction worker.
I can see why you would have expanded upon your original story as you recall more things... but why the contradictions?

 

[mocity]

MAYBE she had been drinking and was afraid of getting in trouble with LE. Maybe she knew her car would start up, didn't want police to come for fear of getting in trouble and maybe she just though she would wait it out or walk it off (being tipsy I mean). While waiting or walking something may have happened.

 

[nnglas]

Atwood wasn't a cop? I wasn't aware of that, I thought he was retired. You are right we don't know what is fact or a lie in Atwoods story. But armywife how do you account for all of the KNOWN lies that Maura herself told?

 

[docwho3]

. . .Why did he say that he was previously a cop in MA when he was never a cop anywhere? . . .

I emailed the reporter who wrote one of the articles to ask if that fact was ever confirmed and I have not yet received an answer. I have read weepers info, posted on the murray website forum, in which weeper claims that Butch atwood was never in L.E. I also read where one of the reponses posted said that the family has heard this from more than one source, although the sources were not named and it was not said if this fact had actually been confirmed. I would think this would be something the PI's could easily confirm or even individuals should be able to make a call to the police department named. I have never seen this exposed in any news article anywhere and I would think this would be considered by main stream media as something of a break in the case if lies were exposed as being told by one of those on the scene of the accident.

As to the direction the Bus driver drove in looking for her: The road only goes 2 directions so you either go one way or the other,flip a coin and drive.

I won't say it was impossible to have picked up Maura if she had trotted off down the road a piece but it would have been very risky since there was a neighbor nearby who had also seen him speaking to maura and so he had to know he would be a suspect and would be scrutinized thoroughly.

Did he lie about being ex L.E.? I don't know and the reporter has not yet responded. Until I hear some confirmation from a trustworthy source that is a rumor. I also saw it reported in another news article that he said he was ex L.E. and I intend to email that reporter as well to ask if it was confirmed or not. No matter how odd you think his story is he just had so little opportunity to do any crime and he knew he had been watched by the neighbor. I have long read as people on that forum holler to crucify the bus driver and I have yet to see any actual reasons to base that on. Maybe he wanted to appear bigger and better than he is but he didn't have much opportunity to commit the crime and no chance at all to do it without being the main suspect and he had to know that.

For a long long time the same litany has been repeated over and over by the same basic bunch of people:Its the bus driver, the dirty so and so!, The dirty L.E. are covering up something!, The construction worker must have done it!,
The officer on the scene did it!

If I deleted posts that covered one of those four things there would be precious little left to read.

. . . Atwood said he is tired of having his name associated with the case. He said reporters have continually questioned him and taken undesirable photographs that may lead some to believe he was a suspect. Police, however, said they questioned Atwood as a matter of routine but never considered him a suspect. . .

http://ledger.southofboston.com/articles/2005/02/10/news/news02.txt

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Interesting answers. What makes you think she chose homemaker?

Because it gives her time to fully build her new life and lay low at the same time.

 

[docwho3]

Because it gives her time to fully build her new life and lay low at the same time.

Ahhh I see. I knew it would be wise to ask your reasoning and you proved me right. That is an angle I would not have thought of.

 

[armywife210]

Docwho,
I am in very close contact with the family. It is true that certain things and people are not being exposed yet because of the likelihood of it coming back to haunt prosecution later. Sometimes things just cant be leaked.
I am not yelling murderer in any direction. I am saying that Maura was not seen by anyone after the bus driver was seen with her. I see less evidence of her running off than of her being abducted at the scene..... and so do PI's. Another thought...Her car was still driveable... why walk away from it?
Also we have to keep in mind that LE didn't do much investigating on ANYone. They made many mistakes. Cecil Smith couldn't even keep his story straight.... probably because he knew he had goofed up.

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Did he lie about being ex L.E.? I don't know and the reporter has not yet responded. Until I hear some confirmation from a trustworthy source that is a rumor. I also saw it reported in another news article that he said he was ex L.E. and I intend to email that reporter as well to ask if it was confirmed or not. No matter how odd you think his story is he just had so little opportunity to do any crime and he knew he had been watched by the neighbor. I have long read as people on that forum holler to crucify the bus driver and I have yet to see any actual reasons to base that on. Maybe he wanted to appear bigger and better than he is but he didn't have much opportunity to commit the crime and no chance at all to do it without being the main suspect and he had to know that.

For a long long time the same litany has been repeated over and over by the same basic bunch of people:Its the bus driver, the dirty so and so!, The dirty L.E. are covering up something!, The construction worker must have done it!,
The officer on the scene did it!

If I deleted posts that covered one of those four things there would be precious little left to read.

Well said. I feel the same - I want to see proof - not just someone joining a message board and saying I know things you must trust me but I won't say who I am or why I know this, etc. There has yet to be any evidence made public of anything sinister, the only evidence is that Maura disappeared willingly. Saying something is fact because the family wants to believe it, for whatever reason, doesn't make it so.

 

[armywife210]

Atwood wasn't a cop? I wasn't aware of that, I thought he was retired. You are right we don't know what is fact or a lie in Atwoods story. But armywife how do you account for all of the KNOWN lies that Maura herself told?

known lies... death in the family? For one reason or another she needed time to herself. She had a heck of a crazy christmas vacation where she was all over visiting everyone, all that travelling... Why take your books if you are going to bail on your life? The death in the family is an old college fav. She had to say something to obtain an excused absence. That excuse didn't take much thought. What else was there to lie about? The mysterious phone call? Well being polite, what was she going to say ?? None of your D#@* business?

 

[czechmate7]

czechmate, I definately give her credit for being the intelligent, caring person that she is.
Her car was operable... why didn't she just get it going and get on her way? Why dump it? It started right up for Billy.

Probably because LE was on the way and they would have eventually caught up to her (they were not more than 10 minutes behind) and if she had been drinking that would not have looked real good....failure to maintain a vehicle, drinking and driving, leaving the scene of an accident....shall I go on?

And your so quick to point out Atwood lying about this and that.....you can't forget, like doc said, Maura wasn't truthful herself. What about the lies she told? Do we just forget about them because they don't fit into your agenda of what happened?

Your comment earlier:

I am just pointing out that anything you may see as evidence isn't necessarily what some might think

.

Does that mean you get to decide how the factual evidence should be interpreted? As long as it fits into the scenerio that ends with Maura being sexually assulted and murdered after her abduction in the 10 minutes between her wreck and LE showing up then it's not necessarily factual evidence that is true? Oh, and about the 350lb SBD; like I said in a prior post Maura sounds like an intelligent girl; I would bet money she could outrun him if he did try to harm her!

Because Maura wouldn't do that is NOT a solid fact....that is a theory based on what the family has said. Yes, the family that Maura didn't feel close enough to talk to about an evidently deep, troubling problem that caused her to lie to professors about a death in the family, withdraw most of her savings from her bank account and drive out of town in a car she barely drove across town in; the family who I have not seen quoted in one newspaper article (except dad ....oh, and I think the sister who stated Maura probably faked the whole phone call drama to get out of work), the family who, other than dad, couldn't get on national television and plead for someone who knows something about their sister to come forward?.....them?
I'm not dis'n the family...but all that is factual evidence. (Although I admit I haven't read every article about Maura....I apologize in advance if I am wrong about that)

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound argumentative, but you have stated nothing that comes from actual facts known in this case. Like I said earlier "because Maura wouldn't do that" is not a solid fact in this case

 

[armywife210]

Medusa,
There are no "facts" of Maura just up and taking off. Only what you want to make of facts. People who know her, and those who don't alike, make other scenerios of these facts. And they are just as likely to a fence sitter as your theories.
I hope you are not referring to me as not telling you what I know, and who I am. I have a lot of notes, a lot of facts, and what I dont know about Maura I can find out quickly, but I am not saying "trust me, this is what I know to be true but I cant tell you why I say this".
As far as Weeper on mauramurray.com, at first I wondered who the person with the pants on to tight was too. However, Helena is Maura's family member, and she verified her inside knowledge as that only known by those working the case, and the family.

 

[MagicRose99]

Exactly! I'm with you on this...