He did know she was in NH, because of the car wreck, but maybe Fred thought that they wanted a specific location up there (hotel, house, condo, town, etc.). He really didn't know why she was up there and exactly where she was heading. Maybe LE and the media thought she told him her destination, since the vehicle was registered in his name. He knew as much as the police. IIRC, he did say she was probably heading to Bartlett, because she was familiar with the area. JMO
NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 9
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He did know she was in NH, because of the car wreck, but maybe Fred thought that they wanted a specific location up there (hotel, house, condo, town, etc.). He really didn't know why she was up there and exactly where she was heading. Maybe LE and the media thought she told him her destination, since the vehicle was registered in his name. He knew as much as the police. IIRC, he did say she was probably heading to Bartlett, because she was familiar with the area. JMO
But how many searches for maura have been conducted in the white mountains?
By all known accounts ... zero (zilch) nada!
I am not saying it would be easy to locate a missing person in the white mountains just like that, however, considering fred and maura were just in the area a few months prior to her disappearance, Fred of all people would likely know some hot spots to conduct a search. (spots maura liked for instance).
Another oddity to me.
OldSteve
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BBM - good point!
Also, I enjoyed reading about your sailing!
Just like your reading about the perils of sailing, seems in the same vein, we are all here reading about the perils of falling victims to crime...
She seems too close to her dad to want to hurt him by disappearing herself.
She would have left a note.
I base my belief on the fact that she did get the paperwork to file for crashing her father's car, and it was in found in car. If she didn't care for him why do that... Why take that with her if she going not going to fill it in? Why leave it in her car along with the jewelry - all points to her planning on returning to her car.
IMHO, I don't think her decision making had much to do with whether she cared or didn't care for her father.
I think she brought specific (sentinmental items) with her. I have always believed that her plan was to rent a hotel room that Monday night ... There even may have been a back-out plan by her after she had some time to think about things before morning broke the next day.
But the second wreck changed her plans and I think we can all agree on that point (whatever her actual plans were).
Now Only the vasi hit and run angle (if true) would throw a wrench IMO into the notion that the second wreck was planned or not planned.
If the vasi hit and run had anything to do with Maura, then I think her motives would be much different than anything that has been discussed on here so far.
But most likely, she wanted to be in the area she did end up being at.
I believe that she went to pretty good detail about tying up loose ends before she left. She returned scrubs (wasn't needing those anymore) had her room neatly packed up (for family, to save them the trouble---showing no animosity towards them) She bought time to get away and not have people come searching for her (explains asking for a week off by saying there was a death in the family) to her teachers and employers.
She emptied her bank account (wasn't worried about money any longer just enough cash to complete an immediate task) had accident forms for her father (again showing no animosity towards him and was the only reason IMO that maura locked her car up so that the forms would get back to him eventually).
After the second wreck. I don't know that maura had many options.
Staying at a hotel for the night, probably wasn't as enticing or even possible considering I think she knew she had to flee the accident scene (or face being picked up by police). She left her sentinmental items behind and I think those were key items for her to have (for that night only in the hotel room)
I think time wasn't on her side as I think she would've arrived much later than she wanted to her final destination now that her car was wrecked and she was on foot and likely didn't immediately get a ride from someone.
It would've been pretty risky for her to flee the accident scene and stay close to the road for fear that a cop would catch up to her that way. (she would have no idea which direction the police were responding from to her accident scene). So immediately hitch-hiking doesn't seem too likely unless she did it in the window that it took the first cop to respond once the school bus driver called 911.
Succumbing to the elements could be a reality in this situation (because she wasn't all too familiar with where she had the second wreck). But you would think some kind of evidence would've been uncovered by now from that.
She may have successfully laid low until the police portion of the accident investigation ended that night and she may have then hitched a ride that again could've taken her to her final destination without much trouble, however, then we are talking late into the night that she makes it to her final destination and without any clothes or her sentinmental items ( to me would rule out the desire to stay at a hotel any longer)
My theory on that is that it would've probably been so late by the point maura got to her final destination (mt. washington for example) that even if she could rent a hotel room, she probably wasnt in the mood to or felt it would accomplish anything. I bet all along (in my theory) that maura wanted a bright and early start if she was going to go on a final mountain adventure.
in my theory and if no second wreck, Maura stays the night at a hotel close to a trail she is going to take on bright and early the next morning.
She fills out her father's accident forms (if she hadn't done so already) and locks them in her car with her personal property and leaves the car visibly in the open to be found as she treks off into the mountains. at that time there may and may not have been an additonal note that she wrote while staying at the hotel. But because of the second wreck, Maura's plans were obviously altered and possibly accelerated.
OldSteve
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Lots of things you brought up for me to ponder, Scoops!
Has it ever been established that she packed up room before leaving, or simply that she had not gotten around to unpacking it upon return from semester break?
She didn't have much $$ in her bank account... the number $240 sticks in my mind (sure that's not right, but just comes to mind), but it was less than 300...
Reminds me of when I took off from school (back in the early 1960's) and didn't have much in my bank account... didn't really think about cost of motels/food - just figured I would manage....
Had she had more would have made things interesting...
Your take on her locking her car to protect the insurance forms... but I wonder why bring them at all... leave them in her dorm... I believe she was planning to complete them.. but I will grant you that second crash could changed her plans in that regard..
The question I've asked, but no one knows if she had a flashlight with her, as that could have helped her make a run for it.. logically, I would backtrack over the route I had just driven, being thus familiar with it ... which brings to mind that place in town where James went to for his book and the owner got mad, and overreacted IMO to James simply asking him about MM - red flag there..
The house under construction near to the crash is where I would have headed to hideout overnight and then comeback to my car in the morning to avoid a DUI.. thoughts run through my mind about the owner of that unfinished house checking it and finding a woman asleep - crime of opportunity..
Regarding Vasi - Wonder if she had let someone else use her car and that person was responsible for the hit-and-run? Perhaps someone who liked to drink...
Her driving to her father's hotel/motel room in the wee hours - that's still most strange..
Has it ever been established that she packed up room before leaving, or simply that she had not gotten around to unpacking it upon return from semester break?
She didn't have much $$ in her bank account... the number $240 sticks in my mind (sure that's not right, but just comes to mind), but it was less than 300...
Reminds me of when I took off from school (back in the early 1960's) and didn't have much in my bank account... didn't really think about cost of motels/food - just figured I would manage....
Had she had more would have made things interesting...
Your take on her locking her car to protect the insurance forms... but I wonder why bring them at all... leave them in her dorm... I believe she was planning to complete them.. but I will grant you that second crash could changed her plans in that regard..
The question I've asked, but no one knows if she had a flashlight with her, as that could have helped her make a run for it.. logically, I would backtrack over the route I had just driven, being thus familiar with it ... which brings to mind that place in town where James went to for his book and the owner got mad, and overreacted IMO to James simply asking him about MM - red flag there..
The house under construction near to the crash is where I would have headed to hideout overnight and then comeback to my car in the morning to avoid a DUI.. thoughts run through my mind about the owner of that unfinished house checking it and finding a woman asleep - crime of opportunity..
Regarding Vasi - Wonder if she had let someone else use her car and that person was responsible for the hit-and-run? Perhaps someone who liked to drink...
Her driving to her father's hotel/motel room in the wee hours - that's still most strange..
A lot of good questions.
On her dorm room whether it was packed up or just not unpacked:
Her family and friends want it known that she just hadn't unpacked but a resident of the same dorm has stated (after seeing maura's room) that she was clearly packed up like she was leaving for good.
I would think the fellow dorm dweller would know the difference, considering all of the same moving in and moving out rules would apply to them as well.
On the flashlight and maura's route after wreck:
I'm not so sure she back-tracked at all. search dogs did pick up something and headed east which would be away from where maura came. It would've been nice if a search with dogs were done that night or the next day and not days later. I think it would be feazilble for maura to have a flashlight with her, but I think she would've been alarmed to use it right away much in fear of drawing attention to herself.
Regarding the vasi hit and run angle:
I wish we could get past this one, because it literally changes everything if somehow maura was involved and yet if she is not involved then it is just a big distraction to getting answers.
I think she could've herself still been at the wheel of her own car when it struck vasi. He was struck really close to where maura worked. She could've taken a small 15 minute break and went for a cup of coffee (didn't have to be drinking alcohol at all) and could've hit him on the way to getting coffee or on the way back to her security desk.
If she was involved she may have likely freaked out and made the wrong decision to flee the scene and return to work and hope that she didn't get linked up.
She may have heard (through a scanner or somwhere else about response to vasi's wreck) and may have heard the severity of his injuries ( i don't know that they thought he would survive) and that could explain her outburst at work more than a phone call.
The fact that her father swoops in just a day later to help her get a new car, is kind of errie and coincidental to me (if maura was involved in the hit and run)
Swamp Fox Trot
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I'm with Scoops all the way. Also, if she were fleeing the accident on foot, maybe she hid when she saw lights approaching so as not to be picked up by the police. She might have tripped and fell into a ditch, especially if there was ice out.
Succumbing to the elements was the very first theory I subscribed to her. It goes with statistics (victims of car accidents that go missing are often found close to the accident scene)
But if she slipped and fell trying to avoid an on-coming car for instance, to me that would mean that she was still somewhat close to where she had her wreck.
And that area has been searched extensively over the years. If you have an accidental death or a death due to the elements, then there would be no attempt (by maura) to hide anything and an item such as her backpack should've been discovered by now.
Pisces_Sun
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"had her room neatly packed up (for family, to save them the trouble---showing no animosity towards them)"
Scoops, only problem is, I think if Maura did commit suicide, she actually displayed a lot of animosity in the way she did it. Packing up her room doesn't mean anything. If she killed herself, she did it in a way that left her family in shambles. They don't know where to even look for a body. She didn't leave a suicide note. LE has been spending time and money searching for her. There's a TV show about how mysterious her disappearance is. Nothing is clear cut with this case. Her family doesn't know if she's dead or alive. If Maura killed herself, it was a very unusual suicide.
Scoops, only problem is, I think if Maura did commit suicide, she actually displayed a lot of animosity in the way she did it. Packing up her room doesn't mean anything. If she killed herself, she did it in a way that left her family in shambles. They don't know where to even look for a body. She didn't leave a suicide note. LE has been spending time and money searching for her. There's a TV show about how mysterious her disappearance is. Nothing is clear cut with this case. Her family doesn't know if she's dead or alive. If Maura killed herself, it was a very unusual suicide.
I do hear you.
But we are assuming that a second wreck never takes place that thwarts and muddles the situation.
I contend, there is a possibility that maura all along was going to leave a note for family and friends, but that note would've been written in the late hours Monday night after she checked into a hotel near her final destination.
I contend that she would've locked her car and left her valuables and left the note inside the next morning for family to eventually get. I think in fact, that she would've purposefully left her car to be found in a parking lot near the trails for instance.
The second wreck, (providing no vasi hit and run angle involved) changed everything.
Maura had to improvise on the spot and who knows what she concluded to do at that point. She could've accelerated her plans (if the suicide theory holds through) that is why I keep pointing to the fact that she took alcohol with her and left everything else behind. She had to know she was close to her final destination and therefore it may have been important for her to hide and wait out the accident investigation before hitching a ride to her final destination and completing at least part of her plan.
She obviously didn't want help from anyone (at the time she wrecked) . houses were all over the place in that immediate area of her wreck as well as a convienence store just a mile back from where she was coming from that she would've spotted en route to where she wrecked. Help was all over the place and she wanted no part of it.
I am going to post a photo that includes the three items that investigators were interested in concerning maura after they found her car.
Many here may have seen them before and maybe not.
I know when it comes to her shoes and what she was wearing that night, I have heard everything from she was wearing bowling shoes to dress shoes etc..
here is the facts
this is from a missing person poster which I had saved from a website that no longer exists.
mauramurray-1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Many here may have seen them before and maybe not.
I know when it comes to her shoes and what she was wearing that night, I have heard everything from she was wearing bowling shoes to dress shoes etc..
here is the facts
this is from a missing person poster which I had saved from a website that no longer exists.
mauramurray-1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
this next photo I am posting is one I took and it goes off-track from our current discussion.
I wanted to show in this photo how close maura's dorm was from the one she worked security at (my whole intent of the photo) and at the time I took it, I was not a believer in the vasi hit and run angle at all.
But after learning more and thinking about it (like how could maura have left her security job IN HER CAR and gone for a break from work and had the opportunity to hit Vasi)
and then I go back to this picture and think, you know her car was likely somehwere pretty close by (either behind the big tower dorm or to the side of it) she could've done all of this and gotten back to her security post in under 30 minutes. NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED but that is part of the reason I can't dismiss the whole vasi angle. The vasi hit and run happened less than two miles from both of these dorms
To set up this photo. the smaller building you see closest to you in the picture is the mellville dorm for which maura worked the front security desk. The tall building directly behind Mellville is the Kennedy Dorm where maura lived.
Obviously she didn't have to drive to get to work, but her car still would've been right there and easily accesible to take a mini break from work with to go get food or coffee for instance.
IMG_9786 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I wanted to show in this photo how close maura's dorm was from the one she worked security at (my whole intent of the photo) and at the time I took it, I was not a believer in the vasi hit and run angle at all.
But after learning more and thinking about it (like how could maura have left her security job IN HER CAR and gone for a break from work and had the opportunity to hit Vasi)
and then I go back to this picture and think, you know her car was likely somehwere pretty close by (either behind the big tower dorm or to the side of it) she could've done all of this and gotten back to her security post in under 30 minutes. NOT SAYING THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED but that is part of the reason I can't dismiss the whole vasi angle. The vasi hit and run happened less than two miles from both of these dorms
To set up this photo. the smaller building you see closest to you in the picture is the mellville dorm for which maura worked the front security desk. The tall building directly behind Mellville is the Kennedy Dorm where maura lived.
Obviously she didn't have to drive to get to work, but her car still would've been right there and easily accesible to take a mini break from work with to go get food or coffee for instance.
IMG_9786 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. This is a good poster. The items are important to call out. Thanks for posting.
According to some reports, one being the "Disappeared" TV show, Fred was going up to NH every weekend for years after Maura disappeared. He searched on his own. In fact, a few people living in the area complained about him hiking around on their property and parking on their property. He may still be going up there on the weekends. IIRC, he would stay at a small motel in Wells, VT or Wells River? Don't recall the name for sure. As far as areas Maura and Fred hiked together, we aren't privy to the information on whether Fred searched in those areas. He may have searched those spots. JMO
It's possible, but if Maura was planning to hike a mountain in February, wouldn't she at least bring the proper shoes? It appears she didn't have any clothing that would be sensible for hiking a mountain in February. Since she hiked often, one would think she owned hiking boots. They could have been summer weight, but they would have been better than street shoes. JMO
You are extremely correct that fred may have gone on his own and done some searches in the mountains, but as far as involving law enforcement (which you would about have to do considering the terrain and type of search measures that would be essential for locating someone) as far as I know and what has been released to the public, nothing has been done.
On Fred and his searches that are known to the public. He has spent countless of number of weekends searching around the accident site of his daughter and it is the neighbors around there that had grown tired of him. But I believe maura's final destination point was at least 20 miles further east down the road and maybe a little farther.
The motel fred stayed at in the early days of his search for his daughter was way west of his daughter's accident and not even into the white mountains national forest yet. He stayed at the Wells River Motel in the town wells river which maura likely drove through after getting off the interstate en route to the white mountains official entrance
although maura did officially enter the white mountains national forest, she only made it a few miles in before her wreck. She would've had to continue east at least 20-30 miles into the forest before she came up to familiar territory to herself and her father and start hitting the trails and such.
So maura was in the white mountains technically but not deep in yet at the time of her second accident.
that is a good question that i don't have an answer too.
She could've had a pair of hiking shoes/boots (that no one else knew about) that she took in her backpack along with the alcohol.
She could've wore tennis shoes and said screw it. (she did have a pair of tennis shoes with her as well as the ones she was wearing). the tennis shoes were left behind in her locked up car, had she not wrecked, she may have wore the tennis shoes the next morning.
From what it looks like was found in her car, she had a black sweater and some sweatpants and that appears to be her only clothes she brought for her trip (with the exception of what she was wearing already and maybe some underclothing). The rest of her clothes were packed away in her dorm room.
I agree. She could have gone very far into the national forest by way of the road.
I think LE likes to have evidence of her being in a particular location before conducting a search. As you know, the area is vast and heavily wooded. So far, no one knows for sure which direction she ran. She could have got a lift from someone traveling west. If her cell phone or backpack should be discovered 15 miles east of the accident, I venture to guess a police search and/or a larger organized search would be conducted. I don't think they'll bother otherwise, because of the time and expense. They probably feel it would be a wild goose chase or a needle in a haystack. JMO
If only someone would come across some of her personal effects. This case needs to move forward.
Wasn't there a fair amount of snow on the ground at the time? I recall a video, which showed Maura's boyfriend walking off the road in 2 feet of snow. The roads seemed pretty clear, but in the woods the snow tends to accumulate and stick around, because it isn't exposed to the sunlight. I can't see her getting too far up a hill or mountain without the proper gear. It is still possible if she was highly determined, but her feet would have suffered. She would have had shoes full of snow. Another problem with deep snow, is one can't tell what it is covering. She could have hurt herself easily (twist an ankle in a fallen tree branch buried in the snow, lost her balance from stepping in a hole, etc.). If she walked or ran 20 miles east, she could have stepped into the forest at that point when the sun started to rise. It would have been next to impossible to navigate the forest at night without a flashlight. So far, I have never heard anything about a flashlight and if it was found or missing from her car. If she did step off the road and into the forest, she could have fallen into a tree well. They can be very difficult to climb out of without assistance. JMO
I kind of go back and forth on this one.
I don't think she would've went super deep into the woods (to avoid police) so that leads credit to the point that she may have very well hitched her way out of the accident scene area while the school bus driver was calling for police to respond.
She could've very well succumbed to the elements or had some sort of accident (while in the process of hiding from police and fleeing her car accident) where she fell and then died of exposure. But if she had an accident like falling then obviously, her and her stuff wouldn't be hidden, she would've fallen, dropped her backpack and that would've been the end of it. Where she was, there were still a fair amount of houses and people that mess around in the long-winding stream for instance that I would assume that at minimum her backpack would've been discovered by someone by now.
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