NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 9

[scoops]

About the rag found in the tailpipe:

I have now gone over around 85 percent of the documents that James has released on his blog and found something interesting concerning the white rag found in maura's tailpipe.

It was the first responding officer Cecil Smith that found the rag in the tailpipe.

I think from reading one of Renner's posts eariler where he briefly talked to the tow truck driver, I made the assumption that the rag was discovered only after Maura's car had been towed and the tow truck driver had discovered it stuffed way deep into the tailpipe.

But if the first responding officer finds it at the accident scene, then I think you have to wonder if the rag was stuffed that far up or not. I think (maybe i'm wrong) that it would be awful strange for a cop responding to a abandoned vehicle, to take the time to bend down and stick a flashlight up the car's tailpipe.


Anyhoo, don't know what that all changes, but that is what I discovered when going over the 911 logs (I believe the following day after the wreck).

 

[scoops]

Also found in those 911 logs that maybe nothing or may be something big:


When police were playing phone tag with Fred Murray, fred had called into the 911 dispatch and told them he needed to get a hold of cecil smith urgently because he had something "very important" to tell him concerning maura.


To me, it is a little odd that the father of the girl that just went missing has something important to tell the officers. It should be the other way around. he should be calling up 911 and saying what the heck is going on with my daughter? Someone give me some answers!


Anyway, I know that is doing some arm-chair quarterbacking and I may be way off base (because I don't have the full context)

But for those who don't think suicide is possible, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if this is how the whole suicide angle began.

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

But if she had an accident like falling then obviously, her and her stuff wouldn't be hidden, she would've fallen, dropped her backpack and that would've been the end of it. Where she was, there were still a fair amount of houses and people that mess around in the long-winding stream for instance that I would assume that at minimum her backpack would've been discovered by someone by now.

I saw a case on Investigation Discovery about a lady who ran off the road into a ditch and wasn't found for several days, and that was her whole car. If she fell Maura and her things could have easily fallen out of sight.

 

[Swamp Fox Trot]

But if she slipped and fell trying to avoid an on-coming car for instance, to me that would mean that she was still somewhat close to where she had her wreck.

Wasn't she a cross-country runner? She could have gone for miles and miles.

 

[scoops]

Wasn't she a cross-country runner? She could have gone for miles and miles.

Oh she was one of her state's best cross country runners and she ran with her older sister for the U.S. Army Cross Country team.

I have no doubt, she could've made it far on foot, but the more I think about it, the less now that I think she did. I believe she likely catched a ride from someone passing by.

Acting quick, she hitched a ride before police even arrived on the accident scene OR she duck down into the woods and hid until the police finished up the accident scene investigation and left the scene. I don't see her running for two reasons.

1. --- If she stayed near the road and decided to hoof it out of the area, she would be way at risk to being caught by a cop car responding to the car accident. Again she would have no idea which direction police would be coming from, so staying close to the road seems like the least likely scenario for someone in her situation.

2. ---- The other reason is that there were too many houses around.

It's not like she could've made a bee-line for the woods and then found a 50 mile stretch of open field to make herself plenty of distance from the accident scene.

She would've been constantly stumbling through people's yards and drawing attention to herself, especially for the first 10 miles or so if she headed east.

Many people in that area have long driveways that lead to their houses which are pushed back from the road. Someone cutting into the woods to make a breakaway would have to negotiate themselves past several people's yards (some of which are fenced) and I can't see her doing that and not disturbing neighbors or getting dogs riled up or else wise.

 

[OldSteve]

Of all the cases I follow, this case is the most unusual in that there is so much to do about events leading up to the person going missing. Guess because we really don't have much else to discuss - she was there one minute, gone the next!

Now from a statistical point of view, the odds favor someone who last saw her being the perp... or being involved, as it places a person with her, rather than the greater odds of someone just happening by who takes then takes advantage or she seeks a ride with..

Perhaps initially refusing help, she had second thoughts and seeing that person lived close by, went to that person's home - just as the tracking dogs seem to indicate...

But at this point, who knows... so I am not accusing, just pondering...

 

[McSpy]

I saw a case on Investigation Discovery about a lady who ran off the road into a ditch and wasn't found for several days, and that was her whole car. If she fell Maura and her things could have easily fallen out of sight.

I agree. If Maura managed to run past most of the occupied properties and went further down the road into the national forest, she could have fallen or had some sort of accident off the road there. There are miles of densely wooded areas along those roads. JMO

 

[McSpy]

Of all the cases I follow, this case is the most unusual in that there is so much to do about events leading up to the person going missing. Guess because we really don't have much else to discuss - she was there one minute, gone the next!

Now from a statistical point of view, the odds favor someone who last saw her being the perp... or being involved, as it places a person with her, rather than the greater odds of someone just happening by who takes then takes advantage or she seeks a ride with..

Perhaps initially refusing help, she had second thoughts and seeing that person lived close by, went to that person's home - just as the tracking dogs seem to indicate...

But at this point, who knows... so I am not accusing, just pondering...

Statistically, women are more likely murdered by someone they know. However, in this case, there are those situations where a stranger may be responsible. They are rarer, but do happen. Molly Bish was working as a life guard at an isolated lake, which is only known by locals, and she was victimized by a stranger. There are many similar cases. Usually, it is timing and opportunity. JMO

 

[McSpy]

About the rag found in the tailpipe:

I have now gone over around 85 percent of the documents that James has released on his blog and found something interesting concerning the white rag found in maura's tailpipe.

It was the first responding officer Cecil Smith that found the rag in the tailpipe.

I think from reading one of Renner's posts eariler where he briefly talked to the tow truck driver, I made the assumption that the rag was discovered only after Maura's car had been towed and the tow truck driver had discovered it stuffed way deep into the tailpipe.

But if the first responding officer finds it at the accident scene, then I think you have to wonder if the rag was stuffed that far up or not. I think (maybe i'm wrong) that it would be awful strange for a cop responding to a abandoned vehicle, to take the time to bend down and stick a flashlight up the car's tailpipe.


Anyhoo, don't know what that all changes, but that is what I discovered when going over the 911 logs (I believe the following day after the wreck).

BBM

You're right. Seems strange to look in a tailpipe. Since he did find a bottle on the ground next to the driver's side door, maybe he was looking around under the car and spotted it as he was looking for more. JMO

 

[scoops]

Statistically, women are more likely murdered by someone they know. However, in this case, there are those situations where a stranger may be responsible. They are rarer, but do happen. Molly Bish was working as a life guard at an isolated lake, which is only known by locals, and she was victimized by a stranger. There are many similar cases. Usually, it is timing and opportunity. JMO

One of the issues I have with the abduction theory is that if Maura took off from the accident site and got past all of the immediate residences and was just walking/jogging/ running eastward deeper into the forest and a car came by, I find it awful hard to believe that the driver of the car would be able to immediately pick up whether or not maura is a girl or a boy. She was wearing dark clothing and I assume (from sbd's quotes) had her hair up.

I know the few people I have encountered at night walking down a dark road, I rarely even see them in time before I pass, So they kind of startle me when I am driving past and it takes me a few seconds to focus in on them and be able to begin to see if they are male/female etc ... and by then I am already passed them and heading up the road, trying to catch a glimpse of them through my rear view window.

I had one guy who was waving me down not to long ago and as I approached (dark highway around 1 a.m.) all I could see were hands waving frantically in the air. I did stop, but I kept my distance and positioned the front of my car right at him so my headlights were shining and I could see the person clearly. I observed that he wasn't in any immediate danger and there was no car around, so I made the decision to not stay and help him. (turns out he had wrecked his car about five miles west and was fleeing the wreck because he hit a telephone pole and was drunk. So I am glad I didn't help him.

point is, if this had been broad daylight, maybe someone stalks her or passes her up and then heads back, but at night in the pitch black wilderness, I am skeptical.

 

[McSpy]

One of the issues I have with the abduction theory is that if Maura took off from the accident site and got past all of the immediate residences and was just walking/jogging/ running eastward deeper into the forest and a car came by, I find it awful hard to believe that the driver of the car would be able to immediately pick up whether or not maura is a girl or a boy. She was wearing dark clothing and I assume (from sbd's quotes) had her hair up.

I know the few people I have encountered at night walking down a dark road, I rarely even see them in time before I pass, So they kind of startle me when I am driving past and it takes me a few seconds to focus in on them and be able to begin to see if they are male/female etc ... and by then I am already passed them and heading up the road, trying to catch a glimpse of them through my rear view window.

I had one guy who was waving me down not to long ago and as I approached (dark highway around 1 a.m.) all I could see were hands waving frantically in the air. I did stop, but I kept my distance and positioned the front of my car right at him so my headlights were shining and I could see the person clearly. I observed that he wasn't in any immediate danger and there was no car around, so I made the decision to not stay and help him. (turns out he had wrecked his car about five miles west and was fleeing the wreck because he hit a telephone pole and was drunk. So I am glad I didn't help him.

point is, if this had been broad daylight, maybe someone stalks her or passes her up and then heads back, but at night in the pitch black wilderness, I am skeptical.

Good point. Maybe some brazen person slowed down and did a double take and found her to be a woman, but your point is well taken.

 

[OldSteve]

Statistically, women are more likely murdered by someone they know. However, in this case, there are those situations where a stranger may be responsible. They are rarer, but do happen. Molly Bish was working as a life guard at an isolated lake, which is only known by locals, and she was victimized by a stranger. There are many similar cases. Usually, it is timing and opportunity. JMO

Just to point out - the stranger in Molly's case had checked out the lake the evening before and was seen by her mother...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6820&page=10

If someone took MM, it had to have been a spontaneous decision by a ..

 

[OldSteve]

One of the issues I have with the abduction theory is that if Maura took off from the accident site and got past all of the immediate residences and was just walking/jogging/ running eastward deeper into the forest and a car came by, I find it awful hard to believe that the driver of the car would be able to immediately pick up whether or not maura is a girl or a boy. She was wearing dark clothing and I assume (from sbd's quotes) had her hair up.

I know the few people I have encountered at night walking down a dark road, I rarely even see them in time before I pass, So they kind of startle me when I am driving past and it takes me a few seconds to focus in on them and be able to begin to see if they are male/female etc ... and by then I am already passed them and heading up the road, trying to catch a glimpse of them through my rear view window.

I had one guy who was waving me down not to long ago and as I approached (dark highway around 1 a.m.) all I could see were hands waving frantically in the air. I did stop, but I kept my distance and positioned the front of my car right at him so my headlights were shining and I could see the person clearly. I observed that he wasn't in any immediate danger and there was no car around, so I made the decision to not stay and help him. (turns out he had wrecked his car about five miles west and was fleeing the wreck because he hit a telephone pole and was drunk. So I am glad I didn't help him.

point is, if this had been broad daylight, maybe someone stalks her or passes her up and then heads back, but at night in the pitch black wilderness, I am skeptical.

Would I stop to offer a ride to someone I saw nuts enough to be walking/jogging/running into the forest on a dark road, winter's night? No!

Would MM have chanced going into to forest at night?
As I've mentioned, I would seek shelter overnight near by and then...
I also might have second thoughts about a person who offered help and I had first refused, but then realized he lived close by...
Perhaps someone wearing a uniform, happened upon the scene and offered a ride, so simply took her by force...

 

[Kimster]

I watched a repeat of the TV show on Maura just last night and it was the first time I've learned about the situation. From what was reported on that special, I think Maura was in shock from the accident and was walking around aimlessly. I think she's still out there somewhere.

Is her father still looking for her?

 

[OldSteve]

I watched a repeat of the TV show on Maura just last night and it was the first time I've learned about the situation. From what was reported on that special, I think Maura was in shock from the accident and was walking around aimlessly. I think she's still out there somewhere.

Is her father still looking for her?

Didn't know they were still showing her on TV - perhaps someday she'll be found or we will learn what happened to her.

Poor Fred, her father, has searched the area for her to the point that people were becoming upset with him being on their property.

Did he ever search the mountains where they had last spent time together, or did he focus just upon Haverhill? -others here might know.

Don't think many felt she was in a dazed state after her crash... all indications were that she was okay...

Sometimes in light of tragedies, like today's killing of 12 people by a gunman in Co, I wonder why my interest in a case where a gal has gone missing so many years ago..
but then I realize my interest is trying to figure out mysteries such as this one, and this one is a mystery!

Don't know if Fred is still actively searching the area for her, in answer to your question...

ETA: Link to My Search for Maura Murray, by James Renner
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/

 

[clueless]

I just watched Maura's episode on Disappeared on Netflix.....Fred stated that he was looking on all the trails they had hiked together and all of her favorite hiking spots, as well as pretty much everywhere else he could in the area.

One thing that stood out to me was how incredibly dark it was. I cannot imagine Maura, no matter how scared or determined to get away from the police she may have been, going far into the dark like that. Even with a flashlight it would have been so dark you couldn't see where you were going. After seeing that on the episode, I now think she either got a ride from someone not far from the accident scene or she was hit by a car and died just far enough off the road no one has seen her yet.

 

[OldSteve]

I just watched Maura's episode on Disappeared on Netflix.....Fred stated that he was looking on all the trails they had hiked together and all of her favorite hiking spots, as well as pretty much everywhere else he could in the area.

One thing that stood out to me was how incredibly dark it was. I cannot imagine Maura, no matter how scared or determined to get away from the police she may have been, going far into the dark like that. Even with a flashlight it would have been so dark you couldn't see where you were going. After seeing that on the episode, I now think she either got a ride from someone not far from the accident scene or she was hit by a car and died just far enough off the road no one has seen her yet.

What are your thoughts about her seeking shelter say at the weather'ed barn, or in the house under construction nearby, or trying to backtrack to town?

Pretending I'm her, I might think that the big, burly man who had just offered me help is really not a bad person, after all, he didn't bother me when I told I didn't need help, and I now see he lives close by (not accusing, just thinking about what might be logical what I might have done if I were her)...
whereas someone new driving by is a complete unknown...

What if I'm heading back to town and I see a tow truck driver, might flag him down,,,, might chance that... would prefer waiting till daylight... what if he stopped and seemed okay...

What if I see a snow plow ... I'd be afraid they would contact LE and I'd be DUI'ed...

 

[goldiegirl]

I just watched Maura's episode on Disappeared on Netflix.....Fred stated that he was looking on all the trails they had hiked together and all of her favorite hiking spots, as well as pretty much everywhere else he could in the area.

One thing that stood out to me was how incredibly dark it was. I cannot imagine Maura, no matter how scared or determined to get away from the police she may have been, going far into the dark like that. Even with a flashlight it would have been so dark you couldn't see where you were going. After seeing that on the episode, I now think she either got a ride from someone not far from the accident scene or she was hit by a car and died just far enough off the road no one has seen her yet.

I agree about the darkness. I remember someone posted a really helpful video of the Wild Amonoosuc river, and it really was wild. Just how far is it from the road? I have to say I have kind of a hard time believing she was hit by a car and not found yet if she were right by the side of the road, but if the river is really close to the road, I think she could have accidentally ended up in the water and drowned. Although, wouldn't she have heard the water? Maybe it was less active and quieter at the time and she died not of being swept away but of hypothermia, then was eventually washed down the river?

At this point I should know this by now, but they've used dogs to search the area, right? Maybe not for Maura's scent at this point, but I think I remember that they used cadaver dogs because they hit in an old house (then claimed it was menstrual blood from a past clothes hamper. which still doesn't make sense, because dogs are trained to only hit on human decomp), but anyway, wouldn't a cadaver dog have found her body by now if she were by the side of the road?

 

[scoops]

I agree about the darkness. I remember someone posted a really helpful video of the Wild Amonoosuc river, and it really was wild. Just how far is it from the road? I have to say I have kind of a hard time believing she was hit by a car and not found yet if she were right by the side of the road, but if the river is really close to the road, I think she could have accidentally ended up in the water and drowned. Although, wouldn't she have heard the water? Maybe it was less active and quieter at the time and she died not of being swept away but of hypothermia, then was eventually washed down the river?

At this point I should know this by now, but they've used dogs to search the area, right? Maybe not for Maura's scent at this point, but I think I remember that they used cadaver dogs because they hit in an old house (then claimed it was menstrual blood from a past clothes hamper. which still doesn't make sense, because dogs are trained to only hit on human decomp), but anyway, wouldn't a cadaver dog have found her body by now if she were by the side of the road?

From what I understand from reading up on search dogs, a scent-trail dog has to have a reliable scent to track with and it won't be able to find something (even a few feet away) if a trail scent doesn't lead them to it.

The other kind of search dog (which doesn't need a person's scent to work with) is actually trained to sniff out rotting flesh (from humans and animals) and once it detects rotting flesh it can make a bee-line to whatever that source is and doesn't have to go in a straight-line path to get to the source. If I understand the info right, this type of dog can cover way more ground and sense out a smell far away.

In maura's case, I believe the initial search with a dog was done with the trail-scent kind of dog and not the flesh smelling dog.

Because the search was done days after maura went missing, the scent-trail dog didn't have a great trail to follow concerning maura and the search-dog handlers knew their dogs were limited. (the dog or dogs stopping 100 feet up the road) was not a shock to the dog handlers, They anticipated before the dogs began searching that if the dog picked up on a scent that it would last for about 100 feet in any direction.

 

[brit1981]

goldiegirl,
There is a dicussion about the sniffer dogs on another thread. Dogs are trained to alert to human decomposition, but human bodily fluids like blood will decompose too so the dogs couls alert to them.

If I wanted ot get away from an area I would not go back to the house where she got offered help when she first crashed. mit is right by the car and the police will call there straight away. I think she likely went up to the road and hitched a lift. She was running from the scene of an accident where she had not hurt anyone, and there were suspicions she could ahve been drinking. She might therefore not have been thinking striaght, and just thought it would be fine to hitchhike. they have not found any evidence that those who saw her were involved, so it seems logical that she met someone else. Plus the chance sof crashing near a killer are remote, but the chance sof soemone who is prepared to attack a woman pulling over when they see a lone women thumbing a lift is a lot higher.