GUILTY NJ - Gregory Leary & others for sexual assault of 7yo girl, Trenton, 2010

[SkewedView]

You know what? I totally CANNOT imagine an adult being that wimpy! I had a little sister, eight years younger than me that I would totally have died for! No matter what the threat to myself might have been. And I was NOT a good kid! But I always took care of my own. Always! I'm not saying that I feel the 15 year old should be given a horrific sentence; I do believe she had her problems as well; but NO way any NORMAL human would do that do a little girl; much less a little sister- half, step, foster or otherwise!

And if it got BOTH of you killed would you still fight it? Remember, no one knew they were there until the little girl escaped and was helped by some good samaritans outside...and according to the authorities there were a lot more scumbags there than have been arrested so far - most likely the ones people have said they were afraid to turn in...

In the article above it describes things this way:

Trenton officials said that the 15-year-old is accused of first having sex for money herself, then accepting cash to let men touch the 7-year-old. That touching then led to rape by multiple men, according to the investigation, which is continuing, officials said.

which basically is saying that things got out of the teens control AT LEAST at the touching stage...but I'll tell you, I wouldn't be surprised if she had lost control from the moment she was 'invited' to that 'party'...I've seen plenty of accounts of girls that were coerced into group sex at parties where it looked like it was willing, or even like prostitution (pervs love to offer girls stuff in exchange to make the girl less likely to go to authorities, doesn't mean it was the girls idea or was old school 'hooking') but was not at all what the girl wanted.

Seriously, how do we know the teen didn't offer herself to draw attention away from the sister? Really, LE's accounts of this are vague and really more innuendo than anything else, and I have yet to see anything from a defense attorney on this, so I'll have to wait for the trial before I make up my mind (not that the media is likely to have any interest in this by then, they have the attention spans of two year olds). Remember, it's the LE spokesman's job to make charged individuals look as bad as possible without knowingly lying (though they may well think something happened that didn't, see the Stephanie Crow case for reference), so their statements do need to be looked deeper into when they are vague or otherwise incomplete.


I know, my opinion isn't a popular one, but I'd rather not pick up the pitchfork and torch until I have enough independent information to be sure...and again, I'm not saying this girl isn't guilty as sin, I just am not comfortable with the ugly atmosphere around her right from the start, when there was even less info to go by.

As ever, just my idiot opinion.



ETA: By the way, a fifteen year old is not an adult, wimpy or otherwise.

 

[SkewedView]

I am sorry but I just don't give a care about the 15 year old here. Yes, the men having sex with her was a crime and was sick as well and should be treated as such but the minute she took a payment and sent that baby in that bedroom she ceased being a victim. She also consented is the impression I get, the 7 year old did not. She could not. She knew better than this, anyone, unless you have some sort of cognitive impairment knows you should not sell a child for sex. Rich or poor, suburbs or inner city, abused previously or not, anyone with and sense knows that is not right!
I agree with what one poster said, if the 15 year old was a boy everyone would have a lot different reaction.

BBM

That's the problem - it's all IMPRESSIONS, from a single, biased source (LE spokesman), that has been awfully lacking in any useful detail in their statements. I don't like to start calling for adult sentencing of a juvenile or labeling said teen 'monster' etc based on such incomplete info, not in a scenario that has so much potential to be more than what it appears.

And yes, a boy would get a different reaction, as there wouldn't be the potential for this to be a lot more than what has been portrayed so far, and there wouldn't be the same kind of potential for a miscarriage of justice IMO

 

[Boyz_Mum]

SkewedView,

I appreciate your opinion and don't think it's an "idiot opinion". I don't feel the teen offered herself up first so they wouldn't touch the little sister but that's only because the story has been saying she received money for her services and then volunteered the little sister for their sick usage. JMO.

This case has me so sickened, I'm having a hard time replying, so sorry if I don't make much sense.

 

[jjenny]

then maybe they were either just going along with their elders (seems questionable, but mob mentality is weird like that), or, well, don't pedos usually start around the early to mid teens? (can't remember, anyone know?)

Either way, seems pretty darn hinky there were that many people at one 'random party' that were up for that kind of extreme crap - the teen I can buy, but a freakin 7 year old? Just seems really hard to buy that gathering just happened to be all dudes that were that specific kind of freaky! :waitasec:

You may very well be right, but then I'm left shakin my head here, cause I sure don't know what to make of it other than that I think there HAS to be more to all this than we know...



ETA: I mean, I know some guys that wouldn't bat an eye at a teen selling herself (if she looked 'legal enough' as they would say - they aren't freinds by the way, just people I know) would be up for some pretty kinky stuff, but if said teen offered them her 2nd grade sister? They'd freak, get the hell outa there and call the cops, and these guys are pretty slimy!

There is no indication whatsoever that the 7 year old was a target before she showed up at the party.

"But law enforcement sources said the gang rape was not planned. Once the 7-year-old was given money by her stepsister and told to let the boys touch her, what started as one sex act quickly escalated to increasing levels of depravity, the sources said."
http://www.nj.com/news/times/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1270359923143700.xml&coll=5

 

[LCoastMom]

QUOTE: SkewedView
I know, my opinion isn't a popular one, but I'd rather not pick up the pitchfork and torch until I have enough independent information to be sure...and again, I'm not saying this girl isn't guilty as sin, I just am not comfortable with the ugly atmosphere around her right from the start, when there was even less info to go by.

As ever, just my idiot opinion.

This was the same impression I got, the 15 yr old was out side with the 7 yr old when approached and invited to the "party". If the parents called them in as missing that quickly makes me wonder if they knew trouble followed or maybe it was just the neighborhood.

I also saw where LE has surveillance tapes:

On Thursday morning, police arrested 27 people on unrelated outstanding warrants during a sweep of Rowan Towers. Capt. Joseph Juniak said the raid was planned before the girl's attack but that it was "somewhat beneficial for investigators" looking into the child rape.

Police believe as many as a dozen people were at the party and said that everyone in the apartment when the rape occurred could be legally culpable.

At the party, the 15-year-old starting having sex with several men for money and then gave the younger girl some cash to let a group of men touch her, police said. It soon escalated to rape and the men threatened to kill the child if she screamed or told anyone, according to police.

Police are reviewing surveillance videos at the complex.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20001639-504083.html?tag=latest

 

[SkewedView]

SkewedView,

I appreciate your opinion and don't think it's an "idiot opinion". I don't feel the teen offered herself up first so they wouldn't touch the little sister but that's only because the story has been saying she received money for her services and then volunteered the little sister for their sick usage. JMO.

This case has me so sickened, I'm having a hard time replying, so sorry if I don't make much sense.

I know what you mean, it has me quite upset as well, which is why I want to make sure that my considerable outrage is targeted properly...I'm just overly cautious that way I guess.

On the money exchange - there is the possibility that the money wasn't the teen's idea etc, and that's what concerns me - I've seen accounts where girls were coerced into sex but couldn't press rape charges because the perv handed them money or whatever, so to a jury it would look like prostitution. It's ONLY a possibility, and perhaps not at all a likely one, but as long as it hasn't been eliminated to my satisfaction by facts, I'll have to keep my devil's advocacy going. I just hope I'm not leaving everyone with a :banghead: feeling here with my stubbornness.

 

[SkewedView]

There is no indication whatsoever that the 7 year old was a target before she showed up at the party.

"But law enforcement sources said the gang rape was not planned. Once the 7-year-old was given money by her stepsister and told to let the boys touch her, what started as one sex act quickly escalated to increasing levels of depravity, the sources said."
http://www.nj.com/news/times/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1270359923143700.xml&coll=5

But you still have a large group of boys and men willing to do that to a little girl, which really makes me wonder what kind of gathering this was...just really blows my mind that not one of those guys thought this wasn't kosher :waitasec:

 

[SkewedView]

This was the same impression I got, the 15 yr old was out side with the 7 yr old when approached and invited to the "party". If the parents called them in as missing that quickly makes me wonder if they knew trouble followed or maybe it was just the neighborhood.

I also saw where LE has surveillance tapes:

Okay, so we know that there were death threats to the little girl at least...who knows if they needed to do the same to the teen if she already knew they were dangerous, a street smart girl would know to go along to avoid later violence...which would look pretty bad to outsiders (just a hypothesis)

This bit in the article here is part of what is bothering me here (BBM):


The teenager's name was not released because of her age, but the county prosecutor plans to ask the court to try her as an adult. It was not clear who was representing the girl in juvenile court.

Nobody seems to be particularly concerned with making sure this girl is treated fairly, and it disturbs me, especially since the pimping charges mean that if she is convicted as an adult, she may very well end up spending far more time in prison than the boys and men who are charged (speaking of which, any word on whether the juvinile boys are going to have adult charges as well? I seem to have missed any indications of that. If not that's a bit messed up IMO)

 

[jjenny]

This was the same impression I got, the 15 yr old was out side with the 7 yr old when approached and invited to the "party". If the parents called them in as missing that quickly makes me wonder if they knew trouble followed or maybe it was just the neighborhood.

I also saw where LE has surveillance tapes:

Some of the articles I have seen the parents were concerned that 15 year old run away and took the 7 year old with her.
The 15 year old does not live with the father but comes to visit him. The father of the 15 year old lives with the mother of the 7 year old, but 15 year old and 7 year old are not biologically related.

 

[jjenny]

Okay, so we know that there were death threats to the little girl at least...who knows if they needed to do the same to the teen if she already knew they were dangerous, a street smart girl would know to go along to avoid later violence...which would look pretty bad to outsiders (just a hypothesis)

This bit in the article here is part of what is bothering me here (BBM):


The teenager's name was not released because of her age, but the county prosecutor plans to ask the court to try her as an adult. It was not clear who was representing the girl in juvenile court.

Nobody seems to be particularly concerned with making sure this girl is treated fairly, and it disturbs me, especially since the pimping charges mean that if she is convicted as an adult, she may very well end up spending far more time in prison than the boys and men who are charged (speaking of which, any word on whether the juvinile boys are going to have adult charges as well? I seem to have missed any indications of that. If not that's a bit messed up IMO)

I provided a link to the article that says prosecutor plans to charge at least some of the juveniles as adults.
Two of the suspects at 13 and 14 years of age are younger than the 15 year old you are so concerned about. I noticed you haven't posted anything about your concern that the 13 and 14 year old be treated fairly. I don't think it's clear who is representing them in juvenile court.

 

[SkewedView]

Some of the articles I have seen the parents were concerned that 15 year old run away and took the 7 year old with her.
The 15 year old does not live with the father but comes to visit him. The father of the 15 year old lives with the mother of the 7 year old, but 15 year old and 7 year old are not biologically related.

Has there been any word on where the teen did live? And if she had any prior troubles or whatever (though if it's true they suspected her of that then there must be a history there)? TIA


I really wish media coverage was more consistent - for instance, some are saying the teen took money for the 7yo's abuse, while others say she payed the girl to allow it :waitasec::banghead:

 

[jjenny]

Has there been any word on where the teen did live? And if she had any prior troubles or whatever (though if it's true they suspected her of that then there must be a history there)? TIA


I really wish media coverage was more consistent - for instance, some are saying the teen took money for the 7yo's abuse, while others say she payed the girl to allow it :waitasec::banghead:

Well maybe first she took the money and then gave the 7 year old her "share."

 

[SkewedView]

I provided a link to the article that says prosecutor plans to charge at least some of the juveniles as adults.
Two of the suspects at 13 and 14 years of age are younger than the 15 year old you are so concerned about. I noticed you haven't posted anything about your concern that the 13 and 14 year old be treated fairly. I don't think it's clear who is representing them in juvenile court.

Thanks, I missed that (trying to read with lots of distractions can lead to that)

No, to be honest, I'm not concerned about those boys, who (allegedly of course) had power in that situation and used it TO RAPE A TINY CHILD - that's pretty clear cut, and in addition, once the media turns away, they'll probably be doing plea deals in exchange for turning state's evidence against the older thugs, if the pattern in these types of cases follows here. With the public calling for this girl's head on a platter, I highly doubt she will be afforded such opportunities.

Call me a reverse sexist or something like that if you will, but I tend to be suspicious of LE's treatment of girls charged with prostitution, as there are sooo many cases where prejudices and prejudgement leads to charges that aren't justified by the facts, and unfortunately many judges and juries share those...again, not saying that is the case here, I just want to be sure that it isn't, if that makes any sense.

 

[jjenny]

Thanks, I missed that (trying to read with lots of distractions can lead to that)

No, to be honest, I'm not concerned about those boys, who (allegedly of course) had power in that situation and used it TO RAPE A TINY CHILD - that's pretty clear cut, and in addition, once the media turns away, they'll probably be doing plea deals in exchange for turning state's evidence against the older thugs, if the pattern in these types of cases follows here. With the public calling for this girl's head on a platter, I highly doubt she will be afforded such opportunities.

Call me a reverse sexist or something like that if you will, but I tend to be suspicious of LE's treatment of girls charged with prostitution, as there are sooo many cases where prejudices and prejudgement leads to charges that aren't justified by the facts, and unfortunately many judges and juries share those...again, not saying that is the case here, I just want to be sure that it isn't, if that makes any sense.

Oh I have little doubt that for some people female is always a victim no matter what she is accused of doing.

 

[SkewedView]

Well maybe first she took the money and then gave the 7 year old her "share."

Entirely possible - she may have been so far out there that she didn't think anything of it...I just wish that info was definitive, and contained a bit more info, like was she having a good ol' time, was she reluctant, what? Such info would really help to make a judgment in this case - instead we have everyone imagining the worst and going with that as fact, as is natural when details are left out.


ETA: Wow, did I just overuse the word 'info' or what?:crazy:

 

[SkewedView]

Oh I have little doubt that for some people female is always a victim no matter what she is accused of doing.

Well, I know I'm not quite that far gone yet, as I'd like to see Alyssa Bustamante (sp?) and the Phoebe Prince mean girls nailed to the wall, amongst others...but yes, at least with young girls that may be vulnerable to psychological control by older men, I do probably give them much more of a benefit of the doubt than most.

 

[Missizzy]

I am very concerned about the young male teens, extremely. I am hopeful that they also receive punishment along with treatment, if they will accept it. That said, jjenny, please note that LE referred to the all the rapists as pedophiles. That's the point I was trying to make last night. Pedophiliac behavior can occur at any age just as sociopathy can (no, I'm not comparing the two). It's just a matter of semantics as to when a person can officially be diagnosed with the disorder/paraphilia.

I also wanted to point out that you are incorrect in your assertion that a 7 year old cannot menstruate. That statement is incorrect. It is a fact that girls who are born prenatally exposed to drugs (typically cocaine and crack) or alcohol can have precocious puberty or early onset menses. American girls, in particular, are menstruating at earlier and earlier ages. There is some thought that this is related to better nutrition and higher exposure to hormones in the food chain. So, there can be many reasons for the the early onset. None are thought to be healthy for the girls, however. This is a huge change in less than 75 years and has brought about little positive or healthy societal response, IMO.

We've raised five girls. The two who were born in Korea and not exposed in utero to drugs/alcohol began menstruating at 13 and 14. The two born in California and exposed in utero (positive tox screens at birth for heroin, PCP, alcohol, and cocaine) started menstruating at 7 and 9. There was also early onset of other aspects of puberty, including sexualized behaviors for one. Our daughter who is now a prostitute began menstruating at 7, not long after her rape. Her sexual provocativeness followed this onset. It is interesting to note that not long after her rape and onset of puberty, she became extremely challenging to parent. She acted out sexually towards other children and approached older males in extremely inappropriate ways. She had to be assigned a personal aid at her school to keep her safe. At 10, she acted sexually more like a 17 year old, while exhibiting a cognitive level of a 5 year old. She has since progressed, at age 22, to the cognitive level of a 7-8 year old. Being that she is a prostitute, I would assume that she is still sexually provocative.

I found an interesting abstract on this phenomenon. It seems that it is really playing into evolutionary science:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n112_v28/ai_14777813/

"For example, early-maturing girls have been found to exhibit significantly more behavior problems than their peers who menstruate on time (Caspi & Moffitt, 1991). Similarly, these early maturers are more likely to engage in sexually promiscuous behavior during adolescence, have more difficulties relating socially, report more emotional problems such as depression and anxiety, and experience more intense conflict with parents than do their peers (Susman, Nottlemann, Inoff-Germain, Loriaux, & Chrousos, 1985). That is, it is generally accepted that early onset of puberty is stressful for girls (Kornfield, 1990)...."

more at link

http://www.center4research.org/children11.html

"There are new guidelines for pediatricians that are guaranteed to shock: girls who start to develop breasts and pubic hair at age six or seven are not necessarily "abnormal". In fact, by their ninth birthday, 48% of African American girls and 15% of white girls are showing clear signs of puberty...."

and

"Results found that in their seventh year, 27% of African-American girls and 7% of white girls had begun breast development and/or had pubic hair. Between ages eight and nine, those numbers had increased to 48% of African-American girls and 15% of white girls...."

more at link


My point in presenting this research is to show that early onset puberty is affecting both girls and boys and is almost a "hidden" societal challenge. Many people are unaware of it. Add in the onslaught of sexualized media and music, the electronic devices we provide children (texting and the internet) and we might be needing to rethink some of our laws to protect our children.

We, as a species, are evolving. And I'm dead certain that the pedophiles are watching.

 

[Belinda]

Very, very interesting Missizzy. I didn't start my period until I was almost 15, so I was pretty shocked when my daughter started hers at 11. She wasn't exposed to anything prenatally, yet still started what I thought was very early. I feel sorry for the little girls who start as young as yours. That must be very difficult to deal with at that age.

 

[jjenny]

I've never stated that 7 year old can not menstruate. Obviously it isn't the norm.

 

[Missizzy]

The more I research, the more worried I become. I'm starting to wonder if there's a whole lot of signals and red flags that the general public are missing. The psychiatric inpatient nurses, probation officers, and pimps most likely noted these changes long before we, as parents and concerned citizens, have. A possible factor for both the girls:

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/9/4/4/0/p94409_index.html

"Conclusions: Chronically sexually abused females show an earlier onset of puberty."

"These data suggest there is an escalatory effect for sexual experience on the onset of pubertal development in humans, commensurate with finding in non-human mammals. While physical abuse appears to be marginally accelerative as well, mean overall differences in females were not significantly dissimilar from the expected Tanner stage frequencies. Thus, findings indicate that psychosocial factors, such as sexual experience, can accelerate physiological development in human females."