NM NM - Patty Pritz, 14, & Mattie Restine, 13, Carlsbad, 11 Aug 1961 - #1

[Legacy]

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start

Please allow me to share this site. It contains a wealth of information (at no charge currently) which could allow more indepth study into this cold case, or any other for that matter. You can see copies of Texas death certificates for the periods of 1890-1976, birth and death records and some older censuses. Check out the "collections" heading to see what all is available. These families come from Texas where there is much more comprehensive information available than for New Mexico.

I will continue to work on this as I have time (which is somewhat limited at the moment), but others are welcome to join in the pursuit of a connection between the families.

 

[Legacy]

I have a few questions after reading the report that was issued back in 2003. It states that autopsy's were done of the girls. I would think that if Patty was pregnant at the time of her death that it would have showed up in the autopsy. So has anyone seen the actual autopsy reports from 1961?

Also in regards to the DNA that was found on Mattie's clothes. The page where it was discussed was a little blurry on my end.... Did I read correctly that there was no male DNA found but there was female DNA found? If this is correct then those 7 1/2 boot prints that were found could have been made by a female. I wore a mens 7 for my combat boots when I was in the military.

So if D. Blair did commit the murders, it could have been his own mother who helped to move the girls to where they were found. Plus A. Blair has made some very off statements about the murders over the years. That is just my opinion.

Also is the group that Estrada worked with back in 2003 still looking into the case? Or did they ever do a report on what they all found out from their research? If so, Anne were you ever able to get a copy of it?

Again these are just a few of the questions that I have. I just don't know where to go with this case. Hopefully someone will make a statement before they leave this earth that will help lead to solving this.

Yes the research group information is important. They were leaning toward the Rabe theory - which is interesting in itself.

 

[Legacy]

SS1950, would you happen to have access to specific interviews of the drive-in eyewitnesses? The summary reports are a little confusing when they say "two girls" and then "the girls" got into a car in the same paragraph. I'm particularly wondering if the sighting by Mrs. Smith was of Mattie and Patty, or if she even could say for sure this was them. Christine's sighting sounds more realistic, especially given the account that she saw the girls heading down Mesquite while being followed. Hopefully there would be more information available than has been shown here, especially since these witnesses may have been some of the last people to have seen the girls alive.

 

[fish1966]

Legacy, FYI...I had a little trouble understanding your last post then I realized that you understand that the Arrowhead Drive-in was a drive-in theater which is not the case. The Arrowhead was a drive-in food and drink establishment. I believe that Christine or Christina that was spoken of was a car hop. The drive in was on the corner of the same street where Patty lived on Mesquite and Church ST. Church St going east was a direct walk to the referred to Beach area. Mesquite St from the Arrowhead going south was a direct walk to Patty's house. Mattie lived one block to the west of Mesquite on Lake St.

 

[Hurricane]

Legacy, FYI...I had a little trouble understanding your last post then I realized that you understand that the Arrowhead Drive-in was a drive-in theater which is not the case. The Arrowhead was a drive-in food and drink establishment. I believe that Christine or Christina that was spoken of was a car hop. The drive in was on the corner of the same street where Patty lived on Mesquite and Church ST. Church St going east was a direct walk to the referred to Beach area. Mesquite St from the Arrowhead going south was a direct walk to Patty's house. Mattie lived one block to the west of Mesquite on Lake St.

Christine's statement that she saw the car follow the two girls down N. Mesquite St to the Arrowhead Drive-In is in conflict with Keith Bunnel's sighting, I think. Bunnel says that his sighting was at about 9:00 p.m. and that the sun was just setting. Geneva Smith said that her sighting at the Drive-In was between 9:00 & 9:30 p.m., making Christine's statement that the girls walked to the Drive-In not as credible. She may have seen the girls, the car, etc. but I question whether the girls walked to the drive-in. If the girls walked down to the drive-in then Bunnel's sighting is in question, or the girls managed to get back out of the car sometime after the car turned west on W. Bonbright St.

Going south on N. Mesquite St. to Church St., is that actually going downhill? I either read that somewhere or have that impression somehow.

 

[Legacy]

Legacy, FYI...I had a little trouble understanding your last post then I realized that you understand that the Arrowhead Drive-in was a drive-in theater which is not the case. The Arrowhead was a drive-in food and drink establishment. I believe that Christine or Christina that was spoken of was a car hop. The drive in was on the corner of the same street where Patty lived on Mesquite and Church ST. Church St going east was a direct walk to the referred to Beach area. Mesquite St from the Arrowhead going south was a direct walk to Patty's house. Mattie lived one block to the west of Mesquite on Lake St.

You are right. I have been mistaken. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Hurricane]

Can anyone shed any light on what time the girls were at Patty's aunt's house, and for how long? I would think that the girls would have went there early in the afternoon that day since they wanted to dress somewhat alike in their sailor outfits, and Patty needed a hat.

Is the aunt still alive and would she be receptive to speak about the girls?

If we can establish when they arrived and how long they stayed it will help tighten up the timeline for that day.

 

[Legacy]

Legacy, FYI...I had a little trouble understanding your last post then I realized that you understand that the Arrowhead Drive-in was a drive-in theater which is not the case. The Arrowhead was a drive-in food and drink establishment. I believe that Christine or Christina that was spoken of was a car hop. The drive in was on the corner of the same street where Patty lived on Mesquite and Church ST. Church St going east was a direct walk to the referred to Beach area. Mesquite St from the Arrowhead going south was a direct walk to Patty's house. Mattie lived one block to the west of Mesquite on Lake St.

Fish1966, so the girls would have naturally walked in front of the drive-in on their way home, whether they had stopped there or not, on their way home from the beach and turned directly left on to Mesquite as they left the drive-in, without crossing Church as they left? The drive in was on the south side of Church St. and the southeast corner of the intersection of Church and Mesquite, right? I can see where a map would be beneficial - are you able to diagram this area and post it? Was it a large drive-in - and was there also seating and an order area inside?

 

[rob76]

Sunshine this Rob76 from the topix in the current argus. I have spoken to you before thorugh the topix and after reading through all of this which I must say is comprehensive. I have some thoughts too, iss it the possible that the murderer befriended patty in the park the day of the disappearance? did anybody see the cream colored 56 ford in the park that afternoon? when they were walking home they mentioned that they would have walked passed the Arrowhead and is it possbile that patty recognized the person? where there any rapes or abductions reported before or after the murders in eddy county? were there any rapes or abductions reported in the following towns, roswell, hobbs, jal, eunice, loving, artesia? is it possible and i know its a long shot that it could have been some laborer drifter that worked out inthe mines but didnt have any connection to carlsbad?

 

[Hurricane]

Fish1966, so the girls would have naturally walked in front of the drive-in on their way home, whether they had stopped there or not, on their way home from the beach and turned directly left on to Mesquite as they left the drive-in, without crossing Church as they left? The drive in was on the south side of Church St. and the southeast corner of the intersection of Church and Mesquite, right? I can see where a map would be beneficial - are you able to diagram this area and post it? Was it a large drive-in - and was there also seating and an order area inside?

I hope this map attachment will work. When opened you can enlarge.

 

[Bobbi]

The whole incident could have been staged by the B. family, except for the part with Mattie. But if Patti was pregnant, like his 15 year old wife had been , that would have put the B family over the edge. What if patti had shown or told her anything like that in the diary? That may be why the diary page was missing. Maybe the mother has an evilness about her,masterminded and took all of her frustration and disappointment with her son's behaviour out on these two girls. She had all of the right connections to cover the tracks... and I heard it straight from a B. family member that Artell said "they will never solve this case nor find the weapon." She would never let her son talk alone with anyone once he was wheelchair bound. DB's ex wife and mom of his two children said he used to beat her before, during and after children came along and she believes he was capable without a doubt of committing the murders. For the sake of not ruining their lives and reputation plus fear of what Artell would do to her if she talked seems to make sense. Proving it is the problem.
I have so many conflicting ideas but this one is the one that makes most sense to me.
Why the ECSD doesn't want to get into this case again is another question.

I found it interesting after re-reading Estrada's reports of the autopsy done by Dr. Haynes: "there is slight hemorrhage about the hymeneal ring" which leads me to believe that Patty had been virginal and lost her virginity that night as well as her life...the second autopsy stated that "only female DNA was on the bodies, no male semen indicated. Hmmm. Bonnie stated that "it wasn't unusual for D. and his mother to walk around nude and it was a very weird relationship".
I deemed it odd that the eye witness Mr. Bunnell said he was going to his car "as the sun was setting", it's not dark yet when the sun is setting, the timeline doesn't add up, he had to have seen them before 9:00.
About the 38 derringer that was loaned to David by Mr. Glover and he disposed of it immediately upon return of it.....why? Did Glover suspect that the gun had been fired or worried because it was in the hands of D.B.?
Mrs. Davidson (Patty's mother) was at a party and stated that she had a gun in her purse because "she knew her husband had killed Patty". (interview lost)
'Offspring' Joseph Blair willingly gave a DNA blood test for analysis, where is that test result?
Finally, why would Jim Estrada retire in the midst of all his work on getting so close to solving the case? I wonder if he was forced to put in his resignation at such a crucial time in the investigation.
It's all falling into place now, the 3 B's are wicked evil people!

 

[justthinkin]

Was there anyone around in any official capacity when the murders happened from the sheriff's office, judges, district attorney, coroner's office, police dept. that was still around in an official capacity when Estrada retired?

How was AB able to effect control of people in power positions? Did she have dirt on them or was there some other reason why they would do as she asked? What gave her the power she had over people?

I wondered about Patty's stepfather as well. How long had he been married to Patty's mother when the murders happened, and when did they divorce? And who divorced whom?

What was Patty's older sister's recollection of him? Did she like him or detest him?

Did Estrada inform either girl's family that he would be retiring or was this a sudden thing? Did he really retire or did he seek other employment? If it's in the papers posted here, I don't remember.

I do wonder if his "investigatory group" was a way for him to protect himself. How soon after his investigation began did this group form? If he ever felt threatened himself, the threatening parties would never know who in Estrada's group had what information that could be used against them. That's a very smart move on his part, but I'm having a hard time believing his department would allow him to involve a non LE group in an open investigation. Did Estrada teach classes in criminal justice himself? This group's involvement just doesn't fit with what I know or have ever heard about how LE anywhere operates. They are so tight with their information. Did this group in fact exist or could it have been a ploy to hopefully draw out guilty parties? It certainly drew out CT in TX.

I thought I should edit this to say I really don't know much about how LE operates other than what anyone else in the general public can glean. Maybe I am just unaware if old open cases would wind up discussed with non LE people. I just don't see how LE could protect their case if cases are shared outside of a department. If a victim's family isn't allowed to see a diary, by what authority should someone outside an investigation be allowed to participate in an investigation?
I mean, would these students have been privy to the files on the case, the autopsy, the crime scene photos? Hopefully someone from WS who is majoring in criminal justice could tell us if open cases are presented to upper level students how much would be shared.

 

[Hurricane]

I found it interesting after re-reading Estrada's reports of the autopsy done by Dr. Haynes: "there is slight hemorrhage about the hymeneal ring" which leads me to believe that Patty had been virginal and lost her virginity that night as well as her life...the second autopsy stated that "only female DNA was on the bodies, no male semen indicated. Hmmm. Bonnie stated that "it wasn't unusual for D. and his mother to walk around nude and it was a very weird relationship".

I deemed it odd that the eye witness Mr. Bunnell said he was going to his car "as the sun was setting", it's not dark yet when the sun is setting, the timeline doesn't add up, he had to have seen them before 9:00.

About the 38 derringer that was loaned to David by Mr. Glover and he disposed of it immediately upon return of it.....why? Did Glover suspect that the gun had been fired or worried because it was in the hands of D.B.?
Mrs. Davidson (Patty's mother) was at a party and stated that she had a gun in her purse because "she knew her husband had killed Patty". (interview lost)
'Offspring' Joseph Blair willingly gave a DNA blood test for analysis, where is that test result?
Finally, why would Jim Estrada retire in the midst of all his work on getting so close to solving the case? I wonder if he was forced to put in his resignation at such a crucial time in the investigation.
It's all falling into place now, the 3 B's are wicked evil people!

I thought about Bunnel's sighting also, but I think it works. I searched but could not come up with the time that it would be dark on Aug. 11, 1961 but I think 9:00 p.m. would be about right. There was no Daylight Savings time from 1945 until 1966.

http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/daylight-saving-time.html

 

[Hurricane]

I admit, i have not read everything on this thread, its moving fast.​

But i don't recall any bullets being found, or any shell casings?

whom made the determination it was a 38?

​

I think more then probably it was an revolver, which would not leave any casings at the scene? ​

Did they ever search for the bullets, in the past few years with detectors.​

If we had the bullets, they could determine today, what type of weapon was used back in 61.​

whom made the determination it was a 38?

The coroner.

Did they ever search for the bullets, in the past few years with detectors.

The primary crime scene has never been found.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

the coroner made that determination, i take that to mean it was his assumption, his speculation, from past experience it was a 38?...back in 61, perhaps that was ok, but not today.........and back then, with him stating that, it would have drawn attention to anyone known to have a 38?......and in a small town, that statement alone, would have cast sups ion on someone, and taken suspicion off of someone else perhaps?

as far as the primary scene never being found?......Hm, i did read, in one report, they were found about 50 feet apart.......seems to me, if they were just taken there, after being killed somewhere else first, they would have been found closer together?.......My point being, if i was in LE today, and was looking into this cold case, I would take a mental detector and go to where they were found, and just spend some time looking and searching the general area, just to do it, just so i would know, perhaps they ;were brought there later on, but mostly to search for the just in case.........

and the witnesses accounts of what they seen that night as far as the girls, i can tell it was confusing, about whom was telling the truth, and whom may had been making it up and why...........we may never know the answer to that one...but i think perhaps, at least one or two, made up there accounts of what they seen for one reason or the other, perhaps to distract LE from a possible suspect, and replace it with one, that perhaps did not exist..........the same situation, as the corner, reporting in his opinion it was a 38?

if there is a goggle map/link of the area, where the girls were found, i would like to see it as it looks today, to see if any water is still in the area from then.....

thanks for responding back so soon, sincerely appreciated that.

ALL MOO, NOTHING FACTUAL OR FOR CERTAIN UNLESS KNOWN AS SUCH, ALL SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTIONS ON MY PART.

 

[Legacy]

Titus mentioned he and another law enforcement officer(s)? from Pecos visited the scene within days of the girls' bodies being found. It should be noted that he had a twin brother who was also a retired police officer per an online obituary: James Frederick Titus born Feb 1930, died Dec 2002 in Pecos, Texas.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Thanks for understanding about my dad (Patty's dad also) Though it wasn't talked about in my family all of the years it affected me in ways that could never be truly expressed to my mom and dad and now in a forum such as this. I was only 7 years old when Patty and Mattie were murdered. So, my life began at that age and I began the search at that young age, even though I didn't know it, for the person who murdered these girls.

I remember nothing before that and struggled to excel in school and pretty much became fixated (privately) on this incident. I really don't believe there was a day that I didn't wonder about all of this. I only wish our family could have discussed it or had some sort of counseling. Finally, at the age of 50 I stumbled upon Mattie's sister, thanks to the internet. I never even knew the "other girl's name". This did more good for me than 30 years of psychoanalization. I could not believe what I was hearing. I felt such shame that Mattie got messed up in Patty's dysfunctional family life and would have understood any hard feelings against Patty's family. Instead, Mattie's sister was kind and understood what happened to our family and why we were pretty much left out of the info of the case. She and I talked for hours over days and I felt much more closure and no hostility coming from Mattie's sister. I was mad as hell at what the truth was. I have nerve and neurological problems which are made worse by anxiety or stress so I go through periods of extreme interest in this case but then I get ill as I learn more and depressed with the nature of the handling of the case.

2gone I love you girl...please know I never meant you or your family any bad feelings...I just needed someone to care....and you do.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

How do you know this Mr. TT ? Did you see her diary/journal and what makes you say that she "sometimes would take it with her" ??

I am sorry, the above statement i made was an assumption and speculation on my part. i forgot to add the.. ALL MOO, NOTHING FACTUAL OR FOR CERTAIN, UNLESS KNOWN TO BE, JUST ASSUMPTIONS AND SPECULATION ON MY PART...at the end of this posting.
It was actually a question i posted for one of the sisters to answer, to see if that was correct information or not.....It was just a hunch, I had, and i wanted to see if they could validate it by confirming it.

I am sorry, if it seemed to appear as if i had some kind of for sure knowledge about her caring her diary, journal with her.
i was just speculating and seeking confirmation, one way or the other, as far as having any truth to it.

I do sincerely apologize, to anyone that may have taken it to mean I had some first hand knowledge on that question I asked.
I was just hoping, to open up a new path/direction for one to travel on, and still being new here, I am still learning, and i learned a lesson from this.
Out of respect to the two sisters, I wont be posting on this thread any longer, i do hope , and i know you will eventually, you will find the answers to the questions, you have longed to find.
God bless
:+:MrTT:+:
​

 

[justthinkin]

Mr. TT, you're not the only one who is still learning around here. Here, I've gone and jumped to a conclusion regarding who did it and why. That's not usually something I do. I should know better than that.

Now having just said that, to now, just read that CT was at the scene a few days afterwards does make me think my conclusion was right.

What's a Tx lawman doing at an out of state crime scene where he has zero jurisdiction?????? That guy just sticks out like a sore thumb in this case, and I don't believe in coincidences such as that or how the father of a POI/suspect managed to be the one who discovered the bodies.

Legacy or anyone else, do you know where CT's brother was employed in LE? Was it also Texas or was it in NM?

My hinky meter is blaring, and drowning out other POI's because of CT showing up.

Another thing that sticks out is Linda Lou's sightings. She had so many. I hate to say she had too many sightings, but she sure found it necessary to pay attention to the girls' activities that day and evening. I find that rally strange. Was her boyfriend a good friend of DB's by chance?

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Can anyone shed any light on what time the girls were at Patty's aunt's house, and for how long? I would think that the girls would have went there early in the afternoon that day since they wanted to dress somewhat alike in their sailor outfits, and Patty needed a hat.

Is the aunt still alive and would she be receptive to speak about the girls?

If we can establish when they arrived and how long they stayed it will help tighten up the timeline for that day.

Patsy Wheeler was the aunt...and she is dead. City Policeman Silvo Wheeler was Patty's uncle and I believe he is dead, he was a city policeman when the girls were killed. I'm talking with a guy that walked down Church St. with the girls...he will get back with me...then I'll hopefully have a time and where on Church St. they were.