NM NM - Patty Pritz, 14, & Mattie Restine, 13, Carlsbad, 11 Aug 1961 - #1

[Pecos45]

Excellent idea, Fish. Without this information and research being passed on to Sunshine, whatever time and energy Mr. Titus spent on this case is wasted and simply goes down the drain. This may involve copying files to a CD and gathering up physical items to be sent along with whatever he had on his computer. But at least this way the pursuit for justice can continue.

 

[Tigi]

Hello Everyone – My husband has encouragement me to read the post. Thank you Legacy, flipdullpenny and Fish 1966 for your sympathy. It is graciously received. Yes, I believed Daddy would have understood the questions and dang it could have answered them. Like I said, if I had of taken more interested and cared about the answers. I always thought we had “more time”. I did not grow up with him in my life after he and my mom divorced. There is a huge gap in our relationship. As far as family friends, I moved away from the Pecos area and did not have contact with any family members through out my school days until I got married. I cherished every moment together after that. In reading the post, like I said I scanned through hitting the highlights, yes (flipdullpenny) there is so much to read. I will have to spend some time putting all of the names with the initials together. There are lots of postings. Flipdullpenny you ask me about WDB and DB, well…. I am sorry, but at this moment, I do not recall the names exactly, I can go back and put these pieces together, ya know. From what I understood, it seemed like ya’ll had the information. It just boils down to the evidence to prove it. My conclusion has been that it was covered up / destroyed as we know it. But I find it hard to believe with the technology today and with DNA that something can not be solved. Maybe I watch too much TV. My prayer is that God will shine the light in the dark places. Things that are covered will come to the light.
When ya’ll communicate through PM (I assume that is personal mail) is that someway through this forum or do you just happen to have each others email addresses. This is new to me so not sure how to us it.

 

[Legacy]

I want to thank you for joining us again and thank you to your husband for his encouragement.

To PM someone, I usually click on their name on one of their posts. One of the choices on the pull down screen will allow you to send a personal message to that person. Hopefully this helps get you started. If not, just let us know.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Legacy]

Mrs. Smith stated she saw the girls go with a man 27-30 years of age from the Arrowhead Drive-In. I wonder if this is what the detective is referring to when he said they (ECSO) believe the girls were picked up on Church Street. The Arrowhead Drive-In was located on Church Street, wasn't it?

One scenario we've yet to touch on much is the Rabe theory. I need to see how old he would have been at the time of the murders. Does anyone know off hand? There did seem to be a lot of speculation by the group set up to review the case that he was responsible. The whole situation with him was a little strange...I understand his lie detector tests were inconclusive. Since he lived in El Paso there might not be anyone on here who knew much about him. I wish some of those who were in that special investigative group from 2003 or so were on here to help explain why they thought he was the most likely suspect. I also wonder if DB's wife had visited with the police department at that time.

Off to review the reports...again...

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Mrs. Smith stated she saw the girls go with a man 27-30 years of age from the Arrowhead Drive-In. I wonder if this is what the detective is referring to when he said they (ECSO) believe the girls were picked up on Church Street. The Arrowhead Drive-In was located on Church Street, wasn't it?

One scenario we've yet to touch on much is the Rabe theory. I need to see how old he would have been at the time of the murders. Does anyone know off hand? There did seem to be a lot of speculation by the group set up to review the case that he was responsible. The whole situation with him was a little strange...I understand his lie detector tests were inconclusive. Since he lived in El Paso there might not be anyone on here who knew much about him. I wish some of those who were in that special investigative group from 2003 or so were on here to help explain why they thought he was the most likely suspect. I also wonder if DB's wife had visited with the police department at that time.

Off to review the reports...again...

The Investigator that is on the case now...he told me the Church St. pickup was done by a store...I can't remember the name of the store...I should have written it down..but I didn't. Not like me...I usually write everything down.
This was on the corner of Church St, and another street...from what I understand....not far from the Municipal Park area.
Now as for the Rabe theory....Robert Rabe came to Carlsbad to do insurance adjustments ....I believe he worked for the State Farm Insurance. He came to Carlsbad on a regular basis. He had made friends with two other young men that worked at a service station there in Carlsbad. These two other mens names are: Dennis McCaskey and Rex Howard, Jr. I'm not sure if these men are alive or not. But Rabe is deceased.
Rabe went on to become a lawyer...in Arizona. Rabe kept in touch with the DA of Eddy County till the day the DA left office. He kept saying he knew who killed the girls. But the DA had decided Rabe didn't have anything to do with the murders and that he couldn't really offer anything that would help with the case.
I have a lot of information on these men...but I really feel like they are suspects. But who knows...at this point....EVERYONE IS.
This Rabe Theory...as they call it...was the one where the antique pistol was considered the murder weapon.

 

[Bobbi]

Here is a link to a story that has many similarities to this case:

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33622226/.../us_news-crime_and_courts/

 

[Sunshine 1950]

If you look on page 3 of the 2003 Estrada Investigation...that is where it talks about the three young men...Rabe, McCaskey, and Howard. This pretty much tells you about the ins and outs of these men. I think the only of these men alive is Howard...but again...I don't know for sure. And I don't think he was questioned during the 2003 investigation. I think they were pretty much considered "cleared" during the orginial investigation.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Another young man that was questioned during the original investigation was: Crouch, he is in the original investigation as well as the 2003 investigation. He is on page 7 of the 2003 investigation. I have talked to two individuals that say this man is ( in there opinion) still a number one suspect as far as they are concerned. These people are older people that lived in Carlsbad during the time the girls were killed.

 

[Pecos45]

The autopsy makes no mention of victims being shot with a black powder weapon, which would leave very distinctive markings and traces.

Black powder burns very smoky and dirty and at fairly close range would embed all sorts of unburned powder in the victims. Think of all the smoke created in Civil and Revolutionary war battles and you get the picture.

I get the feeling Rabe was a nobody looking for his 15 minutes of fame. Most major crimes there are always idiots crawling out from under rocks claiming either to have done the crime or to know who did. And when push comes to shove they know nothing that wasn't printed in the paper.

 

[Legacy]

Another young man that was questioned during the original investigation was: Crouch, he is in the original investigation as well as the 2003 investigation. He is on page 7 of the 2003 investigation. I have talked to two individuals that say this man is ( in there opinion) still a number one suspect as far as they are concerned. These people are older people that lived in Carlsbad during the time the girls were killed.

Right. I'm somewhat familiar with this person. Wasn't he the one who owned and was involved in the Sunset Gardens Cemetery wrongdoings? If I understand correctly he spent some time in prison recently for desecration of burial sites there.

 

[Legacy]

The autopsy makes no mention of victims being shot with a black powder weapon, which would leave very distinctive markings and traces.

Black powder burns very smoky and dirty and at fairly close range would embed all sorts of unburned powder in the victims. Think of all the smoke created in Civil and Revolutionary war battles and you get the picture.

I get the feeling Rabe was a nobody looking for his 15 minutes of fame. Most major crimes there are always idiots crawling out from under rocks claiming either to have done the crime or to know who did. And when push comes to shove they know nothing that wasn't printed in the paper.

I know we've talked about this. It is starting to get harder and harder to review posts as there are so many pages now, but do you recall why the catalog showing this particular weapon was in the police file if RR wasn't still suspected? Also, it seems that Estrada was specifically looking for evidence in the form of wadding when Mattie's body was exhumed, so why would he have done this if RR wasn't still on the list of suspects? The newspaper article about Cathey and his dealings with RR was probably put out there to see if anyone from the community could add anything.

If we brush over people as suspects like the ECSO did without demanding a full scale investigation (i.e. real police work) of all suspects, nothing will ever be solved in my opinion. It is not enough for me to hear that Cathey or anyone else from that area/era discounted Rabe as a suspect. They need to go back to square and do their legwork - all over again from point one. Based on your earlier comments of insufficient police training in 1961, hopefully, someone will have learned how to conduct a homicide investigation since it is now 48 years later. I do think it needs to be an outside, unbiased higher agency such as the FBI or State Police with specialized training in cold case investigation, however.

So, as for me, I'm not letting this possibility go just yet or letting anyone off the hook. Sorry.

 

[Pecos45]

You're right about the volume of pages, Legacy. It's a lot to keep flipping through...or searching through I should say. Be great if we all had it in book form and could quickly go through the data like that.

IF my memory is correct, the gun catalog you mention was taken from someone. But I could be wrong about that.

The bottom line is the girls were either shot with a black powder pistol or they weren't. This fact should have been easily distinguishable...even without an autopsy most likely. But certainly provable with an autopsy IF the examiners were remotely competent. (And sadly no one else in the initial investigation seems terribly competent. So we probably can't expect much from the doctor who did the autopsy.)

Anyway, IF the girls were not shot with a black powder pistol, the gun catalogs etc become meaningless.

Why did Estrada want to check for wadding etc during the exhumation? For one thing, he alone in this saga seems very thorough and would leave no stone unturned if he could help it. Secondly, he may have questioned the competency of the ME as do I.

The fact that LE eventually lost all interest in Rabe suggests there was simply nothing to connect him to the crime other than his mouth and vague remarks over the years that he knew who did it, yadda, yadda.

I have a detective friend who is following this case and he remarked to me that if this crime were committed today it would have been solved in 72 hours. This estimate may be a bit optimistic but it clearly reflects the advances in police science and forensics from 1961 to 2010.

This case may very well have been solved in 72hrs, or at least the right people in jail until some DNA results came back to prove their guilt, if the crime were done today and under the eyes of a competent police force.

The net should have come down VERY fast and VERY hard on the suspects until they were cleared. Instead we have a crime where it seems NO ONE was even "leaned on" or inconvenienced for over four decades. Everyone came and went as they pleased, even crossing state lines. No one was even watched by LE that I've seen evidence of.

Today our total crime scene evidence (assuming it still exists) is a cast of a tire track and possibly of a footprint. Unfortunately the chances of either the tire or boot that made these impressions still existing is astronomically against us.

If the gun is still out there waiting to be discovered, it's nothing but a rusted piece of scrap iron. Lead erodes over time as well. So if we found a likely and pristine gun somewhere AND bullets from the crime scene, I doubt a match would be possible.

I don't mean to be negative here but my point is without something to LINK a person to this crime scene, we've essentially got nothing. And after all these years it appears the real killer is either already dead or is NOT going to come forward and tell all.

Our best hope was some sort of DNA results. Now Sunshine reports the 2003 tests reveal no male DNA and essentially no DNA at all.

I don't fault Estrada or Sillas really for not doing more. I am painfully aware how modern laws hamstring all forms of LE. The simple answer to why these officers didn't do more is because they couldn't. With no evidence to back them up, about all they could do was ask certain people to come in for a chat. These people totally ignored them and were within their LEGAL rights to blow them off. End of that story. Estrada and Sillas are the guys wearing the handcuffs in this crime. All the other actors skipped around and went about their lives without a care. Four decades later we can't change that.:banghead:

 

[Legacy]

The skepticism of law enforcement is an inherent problem in this case as it is with most. Most officers start their careers with high hopes of solving crime and catching the bad guys. It doesn’t take long for their optimism to turn to pessimism as they experience how truly difficult it is to process a case through the legal system.

Often times they meet resistance within their own department before having an opportunity to advance their findings to the DA’s office. There, it is another story entirely. Our laws are designed to protect the guilty as the rules are so complex, with many loopholes for an astute attorney to attack should a case get past the initial phase and to trial. No doubt many officers have had what they thought was an airtight case, only to be shut down at another level of authority. It doesn’t take too many bad guys walking free to cloud an officer’s judgment and optimism for justice. As portrayed on television, for some difficult cases to get solved they would almost have to involve that “rogue” police officer, who defies the system to get what is needed to solve the crime.

Countless cases exist where law enforcement knows whodunit, but cannot proceed without additional evidence. Every good detective knows that the best leads they will ever hope to secure in a cold case are new developments in technology and statements from the public made after the fact. In the absence of DNA, they are often forced to resign themselves to wait for that one tip, that one statement, which can allow them to move forward in an investigation. Sadly, it often doesn’t come until months, years or decades later. If law enforcement is closed minded and turns a blind eye toward tips that do come in, they fall by the wayside and never get worked or even documented. The person who gave the tip receives some relief that they brought the tip forward, but never full closure and is no doubt left with the question of whether they gave the tip to the right person. And so it goes with the Nichols family tip, DB's wife's tip --- and how many others that law enforcement has "conveniently" stashed away in their files, if they even made it that far?

While I totally understand where you are coming from, Pecos45, I do fault those who have supposedly worked this case for their apparent mishandling of tips from the public. We cannot and should not let them off the hook that easily. Also, if there has been suspicion of mishandling of a case even through no fault of the current administration, good law enforcement practice would indicate that resources need to be allocated to rectify discrepancies or faults of a department's predecessors. To do less is not acceptable and speaks to a total lack of accountability to the public which they are commissioned to serve and protect.

 

[Pecos45]

Having been on "the inside" for a bit, Legacy, I can testify that a lot of what you say is true. And it was even worse for a time decades ago as few LEO's were given the least training how to go up against the legal system and defense attorneys in particular.

TIME is a critical element in solving any crime and therein lies the problem with most of the tips, interviews and bright ideas officers may have had along the way. So many people have died, making much of the work virtually irrelevant. All this is doubly true without any DNA or significant crime scene evidence. If you can see a way around these problems, let us know. I could give ECSO the "tip" that you committed the crime and you could do the same for me. Without something to back it up, i.e. some sort of evidence, it would be worthless. We could tell ECSO, "Gee, I'd love to help you but I'm busy watching the leaves fall." Any attorney would tell us not to give them the time of day.

I was a 20 year old Artesia boy when this crime happened and it shook my world to realize how close to me REAL evil existed. I would dance for joy if the killer could be brought to justice. But I am severely sobered by my knowledge of the realities of the situation

 

[Legacy]

Pecos45, I would almost be willing for you to name me as a suspect in a tip if it would help. Unfortunately, since I wasn’t quite born yet, it might be difficult to prove. I can hear them now, "Nope -too young" (as they did conversely with the Nichols tip). But, if it would open the file for discussion within the department and within all levels of New Mexico law enforcement, I’d say let’s go for it. You, on the other hand, might be the better option to name in the proverbial tip. So, let’s do it.:innocent:

No, wait a minute, seems like I recall a false reporting and obstruction of justice statute somewhere. We better scratch that idea. Seriously though, I appreciate your response and understand all too well what you are saying.

What might best serve SS1950 is for us to come up with an acceptable list or Investigative Plan that, if completed by law enforcement, even with no success, would allow her some sense of closure. I know that she knows that justice will be served, whether on this earth or not. What she needs in the meantime is to know that enough importance was given to the deaths of Mattie and Patty that every possible resource was expended in the search for their killer, and that if the case was mishandled in any way that steps were taken to resolve discrepancies and errors. She also needs to know that all modern technologies available are applied to the investigation of this case, as has been done successfully with other cold cases.

I noted Estrada’s investigative plan at the end of his report. We could start there with some of the unresolved items on it. I think we all need to help SS1950 compile this list of unresolved questions for which more information could be obtained by law enforcement. This could be the basis for her appeal to the governor’s office for additional resources and assistance.

We could start with an overall list and with discussion whittle it down from there. The rules would be that it would be done by the group, with voluntary participation and no poster could put any other poster’s thoughts or ideas down (unless we get one of “those” on here). Everything will be included at first, then we’ll combine those ideas that are similar into a concise document or “wish list.” I could periodically post the list, adding new items as they are mentioned. The list might be a little rough at first, but could be polished at the end and boiled down to about 20-30 items, possibly less when combined.

How about it, does anyone agree that this might be a positive next step for strategic triangulation with SS1950, law enforcement and this board?

I hope you do SS1950, because it is being suggested solely for your benefit in your journey toward resolution.

 

[Pecos45]

Legacy, I'm surprised someone on this thread hasn't already named me as a suspect. Artesia isn't that far away and the victims were left half way between the two towns. I was about the right possible age. I haven't a clue where I was that night unless it was during the college term at ENMU. Weekends I came home to Artesia to be with girl I was crazy about. (Not from Carlsbad) And I'm too old to care about my 15 minutes of fame.

Your plan is as good as any we have, Legacy. I'm going to contact my detective friend and ask him what the latest laws are on questioning people. Like I say, without some sort of think, dragging someone in for questioning is more complicated than just dropping names. We'll see if he has any bright ideas.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Pecos45, I would almost be willing for you to name me as a suspect in a tip if it would help. Unfortunately, since I wasn’t quite born yet, it might be difficult to prove. I can hear them now, "Nope -too young" (as they did conversely with the Nichols tip). But, if it would open the file for discussion within the department and within all levels of New Mexico law enforcement, I’d say let’s go for it. You, on the other hand, might be the better option to name in the proverbial tip. So, let’s do it.:innocent:

No, wait a minute, seems like I recall a false reporting and obstruction of justice statute somewhere. We better scratch that idea. Seriously though, I appreciate your response and understand all too well what you are saying.

What might best serve SS1950 is for us to come up with an acceptable list or Investigative Plan that, if completed by law enforcement, even with no success, would allow her some sense of closure. I know that she knows that justice will be served, whether on this earth or not. What she needs in the meantime is to know that enough importance was given to the deaths of Mattie and Patty that every possible resource was expended in the search for their killer, and that if the case was mishandled in any way that steps were taken to resolve discrepancies and errors. She also needs to know that all modern technologies available are applied to the investigation of this case, as has been done successfully with other cold cases.

I noted Estrada’s investigative plan at the end of his report. We could start there with some of the unresolved items on it. I think we all need to help SS1950 compile this list of unresolved questions for which more information could be obtained by law enforcement. This could be the basis for her appeal to the governor’s office for additional resources and assistance.

We could start with an overall list and with discussion whittle it down from there. The rules would be that it would be done by the group, with voluntary participation and no poster could put any other poster’s thoughts or ideas down (unless we get one of “those” on here). Everything will be included at first, then we’ll combine those ideas that are similar into a concise document or “wish list.” I could periodically post the list, adding new items as they are mentioned. The list might be a little rough at first, but could be polished at the end and boiled down to about 20-30 items, possibly less when combined.

How about it, does anyone agree that this might be a positive next step for strategic triangulation with SS1950, law enforcement and this board?

I hope you do SS1950, because it is being suggested solely for your benefit in your journey toward resolution.

Thanks Legacy, Sounds like a good plan. But I would like to take this time to thank all of the people that have come here on WS and tried to help me out with my sister's case. I know everyone feels like we have probably come to a spot where we can call it unsolvable. But I don't believe that...never will I guess. But I know everyone has tried to help me out on it and I do appreciate all of their hard work and especially their prayers and well wishes. If it weren't for these individuals I would probably be locked up in some insane/mental hospital! I have made many friends and enemies since I've tried to solve this horrible case. More friends than the other.
I would like to say to those people that feel like I'm picking on there loved ones...My intentions are not to hurt people or their families...I'm on here to help solve one of the most horrific crimes that has happen in the USA. That's all...I live with this everyday...I think about my sister...Mattie Catherine Restine and of course Patty Sue Pritz...how horrible it was for them that night that someone decided to take their lives because he/she felt like they needed to satisfy some sick urge they had at that moment....so please understand...that I will not stop till JUSTICE is served. I will not stop till that is done. I have had to go through many names and theories to get where we are now. But I will not stop till the case is solved... or when the Lord decides to take me home himself.
One day the Lord will take me home and I will then be with my other family members. Mattie Restine, Mary Ellen Restine, Jackie Restine, Bill Restine, Peter Restine, and my own son, Jason Self. Those are my immediate family members that are with each other now in Heaven.
Justice willl be served on Judgement Day for whoever killed Mattie and Patty.

 

[Pecos45]

Well said, Sunshine. In anyone had told us in 1961 what advances would be made with DNA and all the techniques of forensic science we probably would have laughed at them. Who knows what the coming years will bring?

The good news is LEO's have learned so much from past mistakes. It's tragic that at the end of every mistake is a family or loved one like the Restines. Studying this case has given me some insight into the terrible, daily burden the victims all carry. Mercifully the horrors had a an ending for the victims. But for people like Sunshine, the pain only began. My heart goes out to her and all who must travel a similar rode.

Here's hoping new technologies are on the way to help. Our government seems willing to spend millions trying to learn why monkeys like bananas. But they are reluctant to spend much on equipment and training for our police. I loved my time in law enforcement but know I would have gone insane trying to play the legal games that were to come.

 

[Sunshine 1950]

Thank You Pecos45. You have really helped me understand some of the legal jargon that goes with this case. I hope to understand it better someday. I know alot of you people think I'm a hopeless case because I can't accept that this case is so messed up...but again I can only hope and pray that some new information will come to light and help solve it.
I pray each night that someone will come into the ECSO and say hey...I did it...or when something solid comes into the office and they can at least go out an investigate the leads. I know I'm grasping at straws....but I've been told I have the patience of JOBE...so maybe I do. I know that I will one day say I have done all I can do and hopefully be able to turn it loose. But until that day....I will continue to pray and thank all of you people for helping me out with solving it. Again....THANK YOU.

 

[Legacy]

SS1950, you are an incredible person. I do not want you to give up by any means, nor do I think this case is unsolvable. Maybe I worded my last post incorrectly to give you that impression. If so, I'm sorry. I wanted to know if the board could be tasked with this type of undertaking and if there would be participation from others and a go ahead from you, even if we weren't able to get the exact answers you are looking for in this go round. But, it is certainly not my place to ask you to give up on something that is so very near and dear to you.

My thought is that law enforcement will not take the time to read through this entire board, so if we could summarize the lingering questions and the key points of this case, they would have a better understanding of what the families (and this board) are requesting of them. Sometimes people ask, "What do you want us to do?" Well, this will be a concise list of exactly that.

I'm not saying you can't do this yourself either, just thought you might like a little help. So, chin up, this will be a good thing! We're not going anywhere - we have work to do. Besides, we'll have much more to talk about when the real police work on this case actually gets started and other authorities within the State of New Mexico begin to take notice.

We'll also hope that Tigi will be able to provide additional details once she has had the opportunity to review her father's belongings relevant to the crime.

I would never ask you to give up. That would be like asking the sun not to shine, Sunshine. Faith is a remarkable thing - it can move mountains, you know!