NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#30

[mouse detective]

Wow what a lot of reading I have had to do to catch up - what a difference a day can make.

Lightening Jack - Can I ask you to think about why there might be a google search of "Taking the Fifth" on GBC's computer on 18 Apr?

Lightening Jack - Can you explain why GBC or anyone in his house, have searched "Self-incrimination" on the morning between his texts to Allison and calling "000" on his mobile phone?

I understand LJ why you are playing devils advocate in relation to the debt factor. I n my view it would not be in the QPS's interests to declare his personal asset values - which I expect would be minimal. At the same time however they were careful not to include other regular R/E operating debts such as car lease, office premises leases, employee wages and superannuation, tax and advertising debts for example.

GBC was in debt both personally and professionally, a well structured businessman would have ensured all family assets were as well protected as possible via a family trust arrangement, IMO.

The accused would also have to declare the value of his personal assets to his lawyers. If his assets were not in a family trust, they could all be eaten in legal defence fees very quickly. If assets are in a family trust, who are the joint signatories to get monies released? Who are the named beneficiaries on the family trust(s)? Is/Are the trust(s) an extended trust(s) set up by his parents? Have any changes may have been made to the BC family trust(s) beneficiaries in past few years/months/weeks?

I think the fair declaration of his asset / debt factor and affordability of that debt, should be taken back to a date a couple of weeks before Allison disappeared because his business would undoubtedly have been affected by her disappearance/death. I also believe that personal and business related debt/ assets should be distinguished.

With all due respect to the QPS - they are proposing a financial argument which the "average person on a jury" would relate to, rather than the "average businessman on a jury" might relate to.

Small/ medium businessmen are in my opinion the most likely to claim exclusion from Jury Duty!!


JMO

 

[mouse detective]

Just wondering.....

If the police have a warrant to search and confiscate items from our homes, what rights do we have to ensure that valuable data which could be required for our defence in such a situation is protected.

I ponder the possibility that the police have confiscated my iPhone, interrogated it and have gleaned information to help prove their case but what happens if in the process, the device gets wiped??

In addition to analysis which may have pointed to GBC's guilt, did the defence get equal access to the data output which may help prove his innocence?

Does electronic equipment automatically get taken to a laboratory which provides totally independent forensic analysis?

Imagine one critical time stamped email or text message might get deleted in the process.

Just a thought....

Better try and get some sleep I suppose. Zzzzzzz

 

[Woombite]

Actually, it's not WHAT you know, and it's not WHO you know - it's what you've got on who you know...! :floorlaugh:

Congrats Doc. I am in trouble for waking Mr Woombite with my outburst laughter at 4.45am at this post. Hilarious. Succinctly explains why some people get where they do. Bit like the merit system. Mates Employed Regardless of Intellect or Talent.

 

[kalamityk]

Just wondering.....

If the police have a warrant to search and confiscate items from our homes, what rights do we have to ensure that valuable data which could be required for our defence in such a situation is protected.

I ponder the possibility that the police have confiscated my iPhone, interrogated it and have gleaned information to help prove their case but what happens if in the process, the device gets wiped??

In addition to analysis which may have pointed to GBC's guilt, did the defence get equal access to the data output which may help prove his innocence?

Does electronic equipment automatically get taken to a laboratory which provides totally independent forensic analysis?

Imagine one critical time stamped email or text message might get deleted in the process.

Just a thought....

Better try and get some sleep I suppose. Zzzzzzz

I would think that it would be an impartial analysis or it wouldn't be admissible in court

 

[marlywings]

This is from the Sica trial Judge, which I found very interesting:

Quote

He said motive was not an element of murder and proof of motive was never indispensible to a conviction.

"So here the prosecution does not have to establish a possible motive," Justice Byrne said.

Unquote

I thought motive had to be established in murder cases. Now I'm confused!

I remembered reading about "establishing motive" in another case where there was circumstantial evidence....Hawkins may like to tell us more??


But as counsel for the prosecution, Kara Shead, said during the bail hearing, the Crown is not required to establish a motive to prove a charge of murder. ''We conceded that it is a circumstantial case, your honour, but we maintain that it is a strong one.''

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/intensive...in-lin-case-20111222-1p77p.html#ixzz1zb4Q5Uly

 

[DrWatson]

Congrats Doc. I am in trouble for waking Mr Woombite with my outburst laughter at 4.45am at this post. Hilarious. Succinctly explains why some people get where they do. Bit like the merit system. Mates Employed Regardless of Intellect or Talent.

Love the MERIT system :floorlaugh: Going to use that one...!

Just re the motive thing - how is motive proved in a case of "random" murder, where the murderer doesn't know the victim? eg the backpacker murders, etc?

What possible "motive" could there be, for example, in a murder case that results from an assault, mugging, or fight that ends with the victim's death?

Hawkins?

 

[Keyboredom]

Difficult to keep up. Personally I think it's good someone like Lightning J presents alternative theories, let's face it GBC defence is gonna need all the ideas they can get (all 3 lawyers and their hangers-on and whoever is going to pay for them).

On one point made, that the roughly $1m accumulated debt wasn't that significant, I would argue it was very significant in this case. My friend runs a successful franchise agency and organised a $100,000 overdraft when he saw the property downturn coming. He was fortunate to never use it as he was a smart operator, changed sales tactics and staff to suit the market, managed costs, consolidated and went on to continue to do very well. My mate is experienced, methodical, genuine (as much as a real estate agent can be!...sorry to agents out there), focused on his family welfare in tough times, patient and selfless. All the things it seems GBC is not.

My friend was exposed to $100k possible debt after running at a profit for years, GBC was exposed to $1m after only managing to sell houses during an uncharacteristic boom in the property market, wasting money on romantic trysts, Lexus vehicle, corporate premises that were away from buyer traffic and incredibly poorly-positioned, and god knows what else... all indications he really didn't have skills at much other than self promotion.

Focused on appearances, I doubt GBC would accept the stigma that comes with company insolvency, in addition to having some of Bwana's cash exposed ( "I'm just a little bit broke").

The first person who told me the local rumours (97.5% of which have been true, despite seeming outlandish at the time) said the century 21 Westside operation was just about to go into Administration around the time Allison disappeared. That may have been one of the triggers to GBCs behaviour since, along with the loss of face since the unsavoury side of his behaviour became known to his family.

I hope for those little girls sake we are seeing a gross injustice, trial by media, and weird out of character inexplicable coincidences, that all happened around the time a stranger visited and created a set of circumstances that leave a loving husband exposed and confused.

My fear is instead we are getting an unwanted insight into a narcissistic cowardly sociopath with a self-centred twisted moral compass, from a screwed up family dynasty with a warped sense of superiority, born from years of up-themselves ignorance fuelled by a patriarch who ignorantly created a brood of screwed up offspring. And in this case the 'screwed up' may have extended to the very worst and most evil of human actions and behaviour.

If the latter is the case, it's pretty close to one of Chris Nyst's recent high profile cases defending the Lacey offspring. It looks like justice prevailed there, as it most likely did for Max Sica based on circumstantial evidence and a weaker case than this one. It seems likely the right result will be achieved... Fingers crossed.

All above IMO based on comments by locals and observation of info reported in MSM.

 

[Woombite]

Frankly building a team of 3 different legal teams may end up being a WOFTAM imo.
(waste of flamng time and money)
Possibly $15 k a day or even more.

 

[Nads]

The year GBC gained entry to uni the UQ Engineering TE requirement was 935. Not 900. That is assuming he was eligible to start uni in 1989? I don't know the year, but guessing by his age it was either 88, 89, or at the most outside 90.

Yeah, I wasn't following uni entries in G's years, more early 80's. My OH was an engineer and around his uni entry time he knew some under 900 TE who started engineering at UQ or QIT (as it wasn't a popular course at the time). All of those who were under 900 dropped out or failled anyway!

The original reason I posted was to refute claims that someone with a TE score wasn't very smart. And that a ?commerce degree would need a higher TE score than 900. I think it all depends on the popularity of the course and where it was (DDIAE wouldn't have had high entry scores imo as it was a TAFE then). Also, as someone else mentioned, he may not have studied much to achieve the score he did get.

It's not that I got 900 and I'm touchy about it, lol, like you may think.

Sorry my facts were arse-up for the year GBC would have got into Tertiary education. Mia culpa.

 

[BJsleuth]

Love the MERIT system :floorlaugh: Going to use that one...!

Just re the motive thing - how is motive proved in a case of "random" murder, where the murderer doesn't know the victim? eg the backpacker murders, etc?

What possible "motive" could there be, for example, in a murder case that results from an assault, mugging, or fight that ends with the victim's death?

Hawkins?

If I remember correctly, the motive in that case was Psychological and Sexual gratification.

 

[Ooohm]

On one point made, that the roughly $1m accumulated debt wasn't that significant, I would argue it was very significant in this case.

My friend was exposed to $100k possible debt after running at a profit for years, GBC was exposed to $1m after only managing to sell houses during an uncharacteristic boom in the property market, wasting money on romantic trysts, Lexus vehicle, corporate premises that were away from buyer traffic and incredibly poorly-positioned, and god knows what else... all indications he really didn't have skills at much other than self promotion.

Focused on appearances, I doubt GBC would accept the stigma that comes with company insolvency, in addition to having some of Bwana's cash exposed ( "I'm just a little bit broke" ).

This just says it all really. No need to argue about the amount of debt. We could talk about the quality of the debt (which might be what LJ was attempting to get at yesterday) but even if this were not a murder case, the so-called business man was opertating as if it was still 2003---bling bling and livin' large.
Simply foolish. No more to say.
Oh except one thing. If Gerard really could walk away with so much debt owing to private individuals, with at least one person losing their house, then that is an insight to their character. Doesn't make them guilty of murder. Or does it? In the legal arena, of course it doesn't. Of course we don't really know if Gerard was ready/willing/able to walk away.
Is mounting debt a motive for murder? Uhhhh...10-4 copy that.

"Don't have to be a psychiatrist with a degree to see what yer doin' to me!"
(Aretha Franklin, Think)

 

[Wozzle]

Difficult to keep up. Personally I think it's good someone like Lightning J presents alternative theories, let's face it GBC defence is gonna need all the ideas they can get (all 3 lawyers and their hangers-on and whoever is going to pay for them).

On one point made, that the roughly $1m accumulated debt wasn't that significant, I would argue it was very significant in this case. My friend runs a successful franchise agency and organised a $100,000 overdraft when he saw the property downturn coming. He was fortunate to never use it as he was a smart operator, changed sales tactics and staff to suit the market, managed costs, consolidated and went on to continue to do very well. My mate is experienced, methodical, genuine (as much as a real estate agent can be!...sorry to agents out there), focused on his family welfare in tough times, patient and selfless. All the things it seems GBC is not.


My friend was exposed to $100k possible debt after running at a profit for years, GBC was exposed to $1m after only managing to sell houses during an uncharacteristic boom in the property market, wasting money on romantic trysts, Lexus vehicle, corporate premises that were away from buyer traffic and incredibly poorly-positioned, and god knows what else... all indications he really didn't have skills at much other than self promotion.

Focused on appearances, I doubt GBC would accept the stigma that comes with company insolvency, in addition to having some of Bwana's cash exposed ( "I'm just a little bit broke").

The first person who told me the local rumours (97.5% of which have been true, despite seeming outlandish at the time) said the century 21 Westside operation was just about to go into Administration around the time Allison disappeared. That may have been one of the triggers to GBCs behaviour since, along with the loss of face since the unsavoury side of his behaviour became known to his family.

I hope for those little girls sake we are seeing a gross injustice, trial by media, and weird out of character inexplicable coincidences, that all happened around the time a stranger visited and created a set of circumstances that leave a loving husband exposed and confused.

My fear is instead we are getting an unwanted insight into a narcissistic cowardly sociopath with a self-centred twisted moral compass, from a screwed up family dynasty with a warped sense of superiority, born from years of up-themselves ignorance fuelled by a patriarch who ignorantly created a brood of screwed up offspring. And in this case the 'screwed up' may have extended to the very worst and most evil of human actions and behaviour.

If the latter is the case, it's pretty close to one of Chris Nyst's recent high profile cases defending the Lacey offspring. It looks like justice prevailed there, as it most likely did for Max Sica based on circumstantial evidence and a weaker case than this one. It seems likely the right result will be achieved... Fingers crossed.

All above IMO based on comments by locals and observation of info reported in MSM.

FANTASTIC post Keyboredom! A wonderful summary to start the day, and one which I agree with completely (which, of course, is why I think it's 'fantastic' hehehehe).

It's a fascinating subject the 'sense of entitlement' that seems to pervade the BC family, and one which I've been discussing with my BIL a little bit. Some members of his (my husband's) family have a curious 'superior' attitude which BIL describes as considering oneself a 'cut above'. My BIL puts this in part down to the fact that as children, the family had 'servants', being Air Force kids stationed overseas (both sides of the family were originally from 'farming' stock). Despite the fact these brothers are now in their 50s and understand quite well that really they were just 'White Air Force Trash' (HIS words), this peculiar sense of entitlement and superiority has never left some of them....and the BIL ruminating on this and admitting it within himself is no fool and has a PhD in Political Science and Asian Studies. He's written a book - fiction - which I'm currently 'trying' to edit, but unfortunately a certain 'website' has taken over my 'free' time!! It's a compliment to all our websleuthers that their personalities, knowledge, humour, clever speculations, but MOSTLY compassion for dear Allison and the pursuit of justice is more fascinating than BIL's novel (which incidentally is EXCELLENT....watch out for 'The Prophecies of David' in three books - you heard it here first! And it'll be giving 'Feet of Clay' a run for its money! Please excuse 'shameless plug'!)

Babbling again.....just wanted to pop on and say EXCELLENT post Keyboredom, great start to the day, and thankyou! :clap:

 

[Woof]

My fear is instead we are getting an unwanted insight into a narcissistic cowardly sociopath with a self-centred twisted moral compass, from a screwed up family dynasty with a warped sense of superiority, born from years of up-themselves ignorance fuelled by a patriarch who ignorantly created a brood of screwed up offspring. And in this case the 'screwed up' may have extended to the very worst and most evil of human actions and behaviour.

My word, Keyboredom, you summed that family up well. JMO.

 

[Woof]

Yeah, I wasn't following uni entries in G's years, more early 80's. My OH was an engineer and around his uni entry time he knew some under 900 TE who started engineering at UQ or QIT (as it wasn't a popular course at the time). All of those who were under 900 dropped out or failled anyway!

The original reason I posted was to refute claims that someone with a TE score wasn't very smart. And that a ?commerce degree would need a higher TE score than 900. I think it all depends on the popularity of the course and where it was (DDIAE wouldn't have had high entry scores imo as it was a TAFE then). Also, as someone else mentioned, he may not have studied much to achieve the score he did get.

It's not that I got 900 and I'm touchy about it, lol, like you may think.

Sorry my facts were arse-up for the year GBC would have got into Tertiary education. Mia culpa.

No worries, Nads. But watch that Latin. Someone will jump on you about that.

 

[Timmy]

He's written a book - fiction - which I'm currently 'trying' to edit, but unfortunately a certain 'website' has taken over my 'free' time!! It's a compliment to all our websleuthers that their personalities, knowledge, humour, clever speculations, but MOSTLY compassion for dear Allison and the pursuit of justice is more fascinating than BIL's novel (which incidentally is EXCELLENT....watch out for 'The Prophecies of David' in three books - you heard it here first! And it'll be giving 'Feet of Clay' a run for its money! Please excuse 'shameless plug'!)

Babbling again.....just wanted to pop on and say EXCELLENT post Keyboredom, great start to the day, and thankyou! :clap:

Perhaps you could put a page on here each day and WE could help you edit while things are a little quiet on the GBC front.

 

[Nads]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/decades-in-jail-likely-for-sica/story-fncmmdph-1226416195454

Have been listening to the Max Sica 000 call, and wondering what the GBC 000 will sound like. Obviously not as dramatic sounding as that one.

Sica sounded quite chirpy in the first half a minute, and coherent still in the next half a minute, but then you couldn't understand anything he said for the next 12 minutes except he was as clear as a bell when he was telling his son to get back in the car a few times.

 

[BJsleuth]

There was still no definite evidence that placed Milat at the murder scene. But the judge told the jury, 'Circumstantial evidence may be compared to rope, a thick piece of cord made up of a number of strands of fibre. Not one of those strands alone may have very much strength, but when those strands are taken together the strength of the rope may be very great. - Justice Hunt, trial of Ivan Milat

 

[minni]

Ladies and Gentlemen... Keyboredom........ telling it as she see's it!! :takeabow:


thanks again for another great post. To follow on from yesterdays discussion as to the extent of GBC's accountancy skills and financial knowledge, you've pretty much covered it in this comment:

GBC was exposed to $1m after only managing to sell houses during an uncharacteristic boom in the property market, wasting money on romantic trysts, Lexus vehicle, corporate premises that were away from buyer traffic and incredibly poorly-positioned, and god knows what else... all indications he really didn't have skills at much other than self promotion.

An accounting and financial WHIZ who rents his home and drives a Lexus???
hhhhmmmmm, cased closed!!

(sorry CaseClosed, just pinched your name for a minute)

 

[ActusReus]

Love the MERIT system :floorlaugh: Going to use that one...!

Just re the motive thing - how is motive proved in a case of "random" murder, where the murderer doesn't know the victim? eg the backpacker murders, etc?

What possible "motive" could there be, for example, in a murder case that results from an assault, mugging, or fight that ends with the victim's death?

Hawkins?

The term "motive" can be a bit misleading in our legal system as it doesn't form one of the elements of a crime. The closest element we have is called Mens Rea, or in literal English translation guilty mind. In laymans terms this means, for example, that in order to be guilty of murder a person would have to have some intent or knowledge that their actions would cause death.

While the absence of motive doesn't preclude a conviction, it remains a powerful argument to support the prosecution case.

In many cases, without direct evidence from the accused motive becomes mere speculation on the part of the prosecution.

 

[JK673]

Love the MERIT system :floorlaugh: Going to use that one...!

Just re the motive thing - how is motive proved in a case of "random" murder, where the murderer doesn't know the victim? eg the backpacker murders, etc?

What possible "motive" could there be, for example, in a murder case that results from an assault, mugging, or fight that ends with the victim's death?

Hawkins?

motive in the case of mugging most likely is theft, as for the others, not sure but even if there is no 'solid'motive, there is always a reason why a fight or assault has occurred, it would just not be as obvious.